From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #294 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, October 26 2002 Volume 02 : Number 294 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith [] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] OT: Don't let them cancel Firefly! [MelosaQu@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] o/_The Oblongs_ X:WP homage to air this Sunday! [mered] [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:14:56 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith On Friday 25 October 2002 03:41, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > wrote: > > Oooh. Nitpick coming up! :) > > Go ahead make my day;-) > > "Errrm, I'd strongly argue that Xena initially > *was* concerned about the Greater Good, viz. the anti-Roman resistance, > which is one of the two reasons she wanted Gabby to keep quiet about > killing Desert Boy. (The other, as > you've noted, was to save Gabby's neck). Both reasons pointed to the same > action - blame DB on the Romans." > > Yeah it was agood plan until the bedouins "caught" the killer. That's what > kicks Gabby's oversensitive concious into action. Even Xena was trying > some fast talking to keep the bedouins from killing the wrong guy. Once an > inncocent person was picked to die for Gabrielle's actions it was > inevitable she would confess. Indeed it would have been completely out of > character for either Xena and Gabielle to allow an innocent to die because > of them I get the point, but I'd say the Roman was a dead duck anyway. I don't think they were just going to let him go, whether he was the killer or not. (Do we find out what happens to him?) I do think Xena would have thought of some manouvre to get the Roman off the hook, if Gabby hadn't pre-empted her. > > "As it was, Xena managed to defeat the Romans > and save Gabby's neck both at the same time, but it was a close thing." > > Well Xena may have defeated the Romans too but I really don't think he gave > a damn at this point about the greater good or the bedouins' war with Rome. > Her primary goal at this point was saving Gabby and defeating the Romans > played into this to some extenet. If Xena could hand the bedouins avictory > then they might be less likely to pursue their venegence against Gabrielle > (this is what happened in fact). > > Cheryl Now I think you're overestimating Xena's concern for Gabby. I'm certain her aim of helping defeat the Romans played a large part in her plans, quite irrespective of how that would make the bedouin view Gabby. If I thought otherwise it'd be another black mark against Gabby in my book - just another Gabby screw-up turning Xena into an unpredictable, hence unreliable, failure of a Warrior Princess. I don't want to look on Xena that way. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:34:26 -0400 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith "Now I think you're overestimating Xena's concern for Gabby." Now where in the world would I get the idea that Xena might be overly concerned about Gabby - oh I know- 1. When she tried to follow Gabby to the Amazon after life. 2. Jumped down the hole after Gabby in Paradise Found. 3. When she fought the demond Injurite and got her arms chopped off. 4. When she broke into a Roman fortress and got crucified. 5. When she tried to jump into hell to rescue Gabby. 6. When as a demon she tried to carry Gabby off to hell for companionship. "I'm certain her aim of helping defeat the Romans played a large part in her plans, quite irrespective of how that would make the bedouin view Gabby. If I thought otherwise it'd be another black mark against Gabby in my book - just another Gabby screw-up turning Xena into an unpredictable, hence unreliable, failure of a Warrior Princess. I don't want to look on Xena that way." I don't know certainly she wanted to save the bedouins from Roman domination and she certainly has no love of Romans but I think she definately wanted to save Gabby. I also don't why Gabby's actions would be a screw-up. She has guilt over killing a very nice young man and she wouldn't let someone else take the blame for it - the fact she confessed to this may have been inconvient but not unreasonable. Certainly Xena who broods about her own guilt and certainly tries just as desperately to atone for her past(remember Gabby's talking to Xena's pot as I write)must have had some sympathy for her predicament. Also as long as we at it the bedouins also screw up pretty good. They had a chance to be lead into battle against a very dangerous enemy by a a legendary warrior Xena. They decide however to throw this chance away when they decide that vengence for a tragic accident is more important than their own freedom. Let's face it if they had listened to Gabrielle's explanation, decided on a more reasonable punishment, they would have saved Xena a lot of trouble, Gabrielle's wish for atonement would have been satified, and the bedoouine honor would have been satified. If Gabby was unreasonable - so were her judges. They got their victory but they had to tricked into it. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:53:56 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith In a message dated 10/25/02 8:34:54 AM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: cr wrote: << "I'm certain her aim of helping defeat the Romans played a large part in her plans, quite irrespective of how that would make the bedouin view Gabby. If I thought otherwise it'd be another black mark against Gabby in my book - just another Gabby screw-up turning Xena into an unpredictable, hence unreliable, failure of a Warrior Princess. I don't want to look on Xena that way." I don't know certainly she wanted to save the bedouins from Roman domination and she certainly has no love of Romans but I think she definately wanted to save Gabby. I also don't why Gabby's actions would be a screw-up. She has guilt over killing a very nice young man and she wouldn't let someone else take the blame for it - the fact she confessed to this may have been inconvient but not unreasonable. Certainly Xena who broods about her own guilt and certainly tries just as desperately to atone for her past(remember Gabby's talking to Xena's pot as I write)must have had some sympathy for her predicament. Also as long as we at it the bedouins also screw up pretty good. They had a chance to be lead into battle against a very dangerous enemy by a a legendary warrior Xena. They decide however to throw this chance away when they decide that vengence for a tragic accident is more important than their own freedom. Let's face it if they had listened to Gabrielle's explanation, decided on a more reasonable punishment, they would have saved Xena a lot of trouble, Gabrielle's wish for atonement would have been satified, and the bedoouine honor would have been satified. If Gabby was unreasonable - so were her judges. They got their victory but they had to tricked into it. >> This is so ironic, but CR's argument actually puts Gabrielle's confession in a better light for me. Xena's neglect to say what really happened is what put that Roman's life in jeopardy. I believe Xena was truly appalled that he might be killed for something he didn't do. I don't think she'd have let them kill him. But what would she have done/said, if Gabrielle hadn't intervened? Said she herself did it? At that point, it might've seemed like another lie or truly manipulative, which wouldn't have done much for her credibility. Threatened to break Gabs out? That would've jeapordized the mission, not to mention her relationship with Gabs. I agree with Cande that the desert folks made the situation worse, but so did Xena. Just like with the Horde girl, Brutus, and other situations, Gabrielle actually provided an opportunity for Xena to achieve bigger-picture goals, which otherwise might have been thwarted because of Xena's own penchant for being focused on the "goal of the moment." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:22:39 EDT From: MelosaQu@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: Don't let them cancel Firefly! Seems there are rumblings that this series is in danger of being canceled already without a fair fight. If you like the show, please go and sign the petition. I would hate to see yet another series with the marvelous Gina Torres go off the air. Thanks.... http://www.petitiononline.com/firefly1/petition.html ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:16:38 -0400 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] o/_The Oblongs_ X:WP homage to air this Sunday! Hi, It's finally time ... "Heroine Addict", the episode of the wonderfully warped animated show, _The Oblongs_ which centers around one character's obsession with getting a Velva The Warrior doll (and even references Xena Night!) is going to be rebroadcast on Cartoon Network this Sunday night. It's part of their Adult Swim programming block -- it will be aired at 10:30 pm Eastern/Pacific time. My TiVo is all set to go ... :) r.i.p. Richard Harris ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org ============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 16:37:04 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith On Saturday 26 October 2002 02:34, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > "Now I think you're overestimating Xena's > concern for Gabby." > > Now where in the world would I get the idea that Xena might be overly > concerned about Gabby - oh I know- > 1. When she tried to follow Gabby to the Amazon after life. Yes, but she decided stopping Alti and saving the Amazons was more important, remember? > 2. Jumped down the hole after Gabby in Paradise Found. > 3. When she fought the demond Injurite and got her arms chopped off. He was using Gabby amd Eli as bait, or hostages. If Xena hadn't responded, he would have gone after her some other way anyway. > 4. When she broke into a Roman fortress and got crucified. Now *that* was to save Eli and Amarice, wasn't it? > 5. When she tried to jump into hell to rescue Gabby. > 6. When as a demon she tried to carry Gabby off to hell for companionship. One might argue, that was hardly looking after Gabby's best interests, was it? :) But in none of those cases did she throw the Greater Good out of the window, if you recall. In other words, she didn't allow her feelings for Gabby to override her intelligence. (Except possibly in OAAA, and you know what I think of that! ;) > > "I'm certain her aim of helping defeat the Romans played a large part in > her plans, quite > irrespective of how that would make the bedouin > view Gabby. If I thought otherwise it'd be another black mark against > Gabby in my book - just another Gabby screw-up turning Xena into an > unpredictable, hence unreliable, failure of a Warrior Princess. I don't > want to look on Xena that way." > > I don't know certainly she wanted to save the bedouins from Roman > domination and she certainly has no love of Romans but I think she > definately wanted to save Gabby. I also don't why Gabby's actions would be > a screw-up. She has guilt over killing a very nice young man and she > wouldn't let someone else take the blame for it - the fact she confessed to > this may have been inconvient but not unreasonable. Certainly Xena who > broods about her own guilt and certainly tries just as desperately to atone > for her past(remember Gabby's talking to Xena's pot as I write)must have > had some sympathy for her predicament. In the circumstances, it *was* a screw-up. Xena has just managed to cobble together an alliance of two enemy tribes to fight the Romans, and what does Xena's companion do? - confess to killing the chief's son. If Gabby had been thinking strategically, she would have kept her mouth shut and wrestled with her conscience in private. Sympathy does not extend to allowing it to sabotage all Xena's plans. > Also as long as we at it the bedouins also screw up pretty good. They had > a chance to be lead into battle against a very dangerous enemy by a a > legendary warrior Xena. They decide however to throw this chance away when > they decide that vengence for a tragic accident is more important than > their own freedom. IIRC, they were also offended because Xena had lied to them, in covering up for Gabby. OK, so maybe she shouldn't have, she shoulda handed Gabby over to be executed. But she didn't. Yet another reason why Gabby was not entitled to the luxury of a public guilt trip. I don't normally shout at the screen, but I think I was yelling "Shut UP, idiot!" > Let's face it if they had listened to Gabrielle's > explanation, decided on a more reasonable punishment, they would have saved > Xena a lot of trouble, Gabrielle's wish for atonement would have been > satified, and the bedoouine honor would have been satified. And in those days, what would have been a 'more reasonable punishment'? Not much different, I suspect. Or maybe just a hundred lashes. Whatever it might be, can you see Xena allowing that? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 17:20:16 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith On Saturday 26 October 2002 06:53, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > This is so ironic, but CR's argument actually puts Gabrielle's confession > in a better light for me. Xena's neglect to say what really happened is > what put that Roman's life in jeopardy. What makes you think they wouldn't have killed him anyway? And, was anybody *really* expecting Xena to say "Gabby here killed him. She's yours". ? (I woulda *loved* to see what the subtexters would've made of that ;) > I believe Xena was truly appalled > that he might be killed for something he didn't do. I don't think she'd > have let them kill him. There, I'm not sure. Xena still hated all Romans at that time, I think. We certainly didn't see her attitude soften until Anthony & Cleopatra. She was ready enough to lure them into a trap and get them killed. So, whether her sense of justice would have rebelled against letting him be killed, or whether she could have just written him off as just another war casualty, I'm not sure. > But what would she have done/said, if Gabrielle > hadn't intervened? Said she herself did it? No. She would have pointed out, I think, that there was _no_ evidence that it was this Roman who actually killed Desert Boy, punishing him would ket the real killer off the hook. Or something like that. And then framed it on one of the Romans who died on the subsequent battlefield. That's what I think she would have done. > At that point, it might've > seemed like another lie or truly manipulative, which wouldn't have done > much for her credibility. Threatened to break Gabs out? That would've > jeapordized the mission, not to mention her relationship with Gabs. I do sometimes wish Xena would have let Gabs achieve her constant ambition of getting herself killed.... ;-) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 18:50:33 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Seeds Of Faith On Saturday 26 October 2002 16:37, cr wrote: > > Let's face it if they had listened to Gabrielle's > > explanation, decided on a more reasonable punishment, they would have > > saved Xena a lot of trouble, Gabrielle's wish for atonement would have > > been satified, and the bedoouine honor would have been satified. > > And in those days, what would have been a 'more reasonable punishment'? > Not much different, I suspect. Or maybe just a hundred lashes. > Whatever it might be, can you see Xena allowing that? > > cr Actually, on reflection, more likely cutting off Gabby's hand. They did it for theft, very likely they'd do it for the hand that struck the blow. Or invite Gabs, as a demonstration of her contrition, to cut it off herself.... ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #294 **************************************