From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #291 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, October 23 2002 Volume 02 : Number 291 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [] [chakram-refugees] Oxygen Xena Marathon ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 00:24:12 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 10/21/2002 7:05:26 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: @ @ @ @ @ @ > I think the real reason that Gabrielle often doesn't > do as she is told is that she has a real sense of her own free will. As > much > as loves and respects Xena she will follow her own conscious. She also > gives > this freedom to others - when Eli asks her to stand aside she does - not > because she is foolish but because she can't deny him his free will (this is > why she didn't dump those ashes in the well in FIN). Gabrielle cannot not > put her will above another. If Xena cannot stop herself from trying to > control other's destinies then Gabrielle can't stop herself from allowing > others to control their own destiny. Neither person is right or wrong in > this > - Xena suffers when she can't protect people she loves because she takes > their > fate on her shoulders - Gabrielle also suffers when people she loves are > hurt > because she has allowed them the freedom to be hurt. > Oh, excellent points! I always liked that Gabrielle actually listened to people -- to their needs, rather than imposing her own. True, in her earlier days she had a hard time hearing that things might not be as she wanted them to be, but she eventually accepted what was real to them. She encouraged them to be themselves, just as she did with Xena. You know, I just happened to rewatch Return of Callisto, and your comments make me see things a little differently than I did before. I was among those who saw Gabrielle as a bit hypocritical in letting Xena do the dirty work when it came to Callisto. I never bought into the idea that Gabrielle didn't mean for Xena to kill Callisto, as she certainly must have known that was a distinct possibility. But now I'm thinking this is similar to Eli, in that Gabrielle accepted that Xena would seek justice in her own way. I'm not saying it didn't also suit Gabrielle's own desire for Callisto to be punished, but once again Gabrielle seemed to be suggesting that what was wrong for her was not necessarily wrong for Xena -- and not just because Xena already had so much blood on her hands. She didn't make judgments about Xena as a warrior before, and even in The Price she chose to do what she thought best, rather than trying to make Xena change. Anyway, I think you're right on target in what you say about their different approaches to free will (i.e., Gabrielle saw it for everyone, whereas Xena saw it for everyone unless they disagreed with her ). This gets to the heart of much of Gabrielle's perceived inconsistency, as she had different standards for different people. Xena could be so consistent because she so often used her own standard (except where Gabrielle was concerned). Reading this post also suggested another interesting parallel with RoC. Gabrielle demands that Xena teach her how to use a sword -- to kill Callisto. Xena refused at first, but then realized Gabrielle had the right to ask. in SoF, Xena demands that Callisto give her the Hind's Blood Dagger to killy Ares, which Callisto is reluctant to do, but relents. In both cases, X&G chose not to use the weapons. Xena shows how far she'd come, in that for once she was accepting another person's (Eli) will. Anyway, thanks for your "take" on this ep, especially X&G's approaches to free will. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:29:10 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Tuesday 22 October 2002 13:12, Cheryl Ande wrote: > @ > @ > @ > @ > @@ > > (Big snips) > > Xena on hearing of the threats immediately goes off to confront Ares army > which is coming to attack the village. Gabrielle is left behind to > safeguard Eli. As Xena prepares to fight Ares's army she is visited by > Callisto who asks Xena to allow Eli to handle things his own way. Xena > says that his way will get him and his followers killed and off she goes to > stop Ares's army. I liked that fight on the bridge. IIRC, Xena seemed to be enjoying it. And I liked the little extra detail that after she cut the bridge, there were a couple of soldiers dangling from the wreckage and their friends were helping them climb back up. Nice touch of verisimilitude there. > In the square Eli and Gabrielle are again confronted by Ares. Ares taunts > Eli, he says that warriors have always shaped history and that Eli's way is > false. As he prepares to strike at Eli, Gabrielle pulls her sais and > defends Eli twice. Eli however pulls Gabrielle aside and begs her to stop > fighting - that defending him with violence only reinforces Ares message > that violence is the answer. She must let him handle things his way for > "the greater good". Gabrielle tearfully lets Eli confront Ares and he is > murdered in cold blood. ... and ten thousand Xenafans cheer the War God on... :) OK, so it all depends if you like Eli or not.... > Gabrielle is devastated - he friend is dead and she is guilty. Once again > her belief in the way of love has brought disaster to someone she loves. > Xena compounds the problem when trying to comfort Gabrielle she asks if she > defended Eli when Gabby can't answer her, Xena is incensed. Gabrielle > tries to explain that she did what Eli asked her to do but Xena will have > done of it. She says that people like Eli can't exist unless people like > her and Gabrielle defend them. Then, Gabrielle shouts, Ares is right the > future is molded by warriors and she storms off. Xena is shocked - is it > possible that she and Ares share the same world view? The way I saw it, Xena was almost intending to comfort Gabby when she said "You defended him, didn't you?", expecting the answer to be a 'Yes'. And she was surprised when Gabby didn't answer, which is why she asked again rather more sharply, and Gabby, instead of explaining, flew off the handle. That's how I saw it. > Gabrielle now goes off to grieve by attacking a tree (grief-stricken > Gabrielle is very hard on trees). In Gabby's defence, the tree was already dead. > Ares however interrupts her. Although > she is furious with him and attacks, Ares is not upset with her instead he > seems impressed. He tells her that she doesn't actually believe in the way > of love that she knows in her heart that might makes right even when wrong. > Then he shows what godlike power is and as it courses through her body he > offers her that power. Is Gabrielle finally seduced by Ares? It appears > so. When she goes to mourn at Eli's shrine where his ashes are she appears > ready to follow Ares. She can't understand how Eli has allowed himself to > killed. His path has lead only to an urn of ashes. She asks his > understanding and then declares that she will stand with Ares. This was all too sudden for me to really credit it, actually. > Meanwhile Xena is too trying to cope with Eli's death and not doing a great > job either. At Eli's funeral pyre she is visited by Callisto and Xena > accuses Callisto of getting Eli killed. Callisto says that things are > working out the way they must and Eli will be reincarnated into a new body. > Xena is not pleased - she liked Eli's old body just fine. Eli probably did, too. Thousands didn't > Still Callisto > tries to reason with Xena but Xena is bent on revenge and demands that > Callisto show her where the Dagger of Helios is. This dagger can kill a > god. Callisto at first will not take Xena there but finally relents. Xena > is shown the dagger but Callisto says that if Xena kills Ares Eli's > sacrifice will be meaningless but Xena is determined to have revenge. Mega YAXI here. Quite aside from being an all-new property of the Dagger of Helios (and yet another Only Way to Kill a God), it's the *wrong dagger*. Doubtless the property department had the 'Dagger of Helios' listed as 'curved dagger' and someone picked the wrong curved dagger.... > Back at the village square Ares is gloating over his apparent victory over > Eli. He is threatening Eli's followers but they will not listen to him. > Just as he is about to order their slaughter, Gabrielle arrives. Ares says > that he doesn't have time for her but they will continue their lessons > later (there is a missing scene here where Ares actually does teach > Gabrielle). Gabrielle however astounds Ares when she attacks him. He > thought she had abandon Xena and her ideals and Gabrielle says she would > never abandon Xena for him and she urges the people to fight for their > beliefs. I think the implication here is that Gabrielle had a plan to use > Ares's training against him. Indeed she does fight Ares and when she is > thrown off the platform she is able to disarm Ares and now turns his weapon > against him . I couldn't credit that either. Gabby defeating Ares? Where did she get that good so suddenly? OK, maybe if we'd seen the cut scene with Ares teaching her, it might have helped a little. > Ares with distain says that Gabrielle will always be a > goody-two shoes but Gabrielle answers: "Yeah, but with a really big sword." > They fight in earnest (the priest with the big hat is killed in passing - > Ares didn't seem to notice or care that his priest is dead) Well, he was a really obnoxious-looking character and he had this *really* offensive hat... ;-) > and Gabrielle > is defeated. Gabrielle has tried to use Ares violence against him but has > lost. Just Ares is about to lop off her head, Xena arrives. > > Xena breaks Ares sword ... so howcome the God of war didn't lose his powers? (Like in Ten Little Warlords). Or was it just his no 2 sword that he used for everyday Eli-slaughtering, and his *real* sword was safe in a vault somewhere? Unlike you, I was disappointed in this ep (the death of Eli notwithstanding ;) The biggest disappointment was Callisto. Angel Callisto is just not even a pale shadow of her delightful evil self. I was so hoping that a sinister streak would show through the goodness, but it never did. RIP, Goddess of Napalm and Rockslides. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 11:36:28 -0400 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> cr wrote: "I liked that fight on the bridge. IIRC, Xena seemed to be enjoying it. And I liked the little extra detail that after she cut the bridge, there were a couple of soldiers dangling from the wreckage and their friends were helping them climb back up. Nice touch of verisimilitude there." There is also a wonderful irony to the scene. Xena is fighting Ares's army just as Eli is convincing Gabrielle to allow him to face Ares. Xena is fighting like hell to save Eli and Eli is purposely allowing himself to be killed. > > "... and ten thousand Xenafans cheer the War God on... :) OK, so it all depends if you like Eli or not...." Alas first a Gabbasher and now an Elibasher - your perfidity knows no bounds does it? ;-) "The way I saw it, Xena was almost intending to comfort Gabby when she said "You defended him, didn't you?", expecting the answer to be a 'Yes'. And she was surprised when Gabby didn't answer, which is why she asked again rather more sharply, and Gabby, instead of explaining, flew off the handle." Well Gabby does try to explain but Xena can't accept it. Gabby however flies off the handle because is angry with herself more than angry with Xena. Gabrielle feels a lot of guilt for Eli's death. "Mega YAXI here. Quite aside from being an all-new property of the Dagger of Helios (and yet another Only Way to Kill a God), it's the *wrong dagger*. Doubtless the property department had the 'Dagger of Helios' listed as 'curved dagger' and someone picked the wrong curved dagger.... Yeah I agree. Wasn't the Dagger of Helios in The Quest too. Anyway I don't know why Callisto didn't just conjuror up the Hines Blood dagger. Doesn't she know where that is? > "I couldn't credit that either. Gabby defeating Ares? Where did she get that good so suddenly? OK, maybe if we'd seen the cut scene with Ares teaching her, it might have helped a little." I think the missing scenes would have helped a lot. It might have explained Gabrielle's motivation better or explained why she thought she could fight Ares. But to be frank no one should ever try to fight Ares - he is a god and can't be defeated but never seems to stop anyone (and if it did there wouldn't musch of a episode).Perhaps Gabrielle never thought she could defeat Ares but was just determined to resist him for the greater good. > > "Well, he was a really obnoxious-looking character and he had this *really* offensive hat... ;-)" Yes he was a rather odd choice for Ares priest - not very impressive. I don't quite know what the priest to the God of War should be like but that isn't it. Obviously Ares wasn't impressed with him either. (I don't believe that in ancient Greece Ares had temples or a priesthood - he wasn't highly thought of as a god - Athenia was of course the preferred Goddess of War) > > "... so howcome the God of war didn't lose his powers? (Like in Ten Little Warlords). Or was it just his no 2 sword that he used for everyday Eli-slaughtering, and his *real* sword was safe in a vault somewhere?" Ares isn't stupid I sure the godhhood sword is safely tucked away in that secure vault. "Unlike you, I was disappointed in this ep (the death of Eli notwithstanding ;) The biggest disappointment was Callisto. Angel Callisto is just not even a pale shadow of her delightful evil self. I was so hoping that a sinister streak would show through the goodness, but it never did. RIP, Goddess of Napalm and Rockslides." Well I am more fond of Angel Callisto than you. I don't have trouble with her goodness per se but I was just a bit disturbed by her willingness to serve her new god - Callisto was never very pliable. I still find it interesting that Callisto is serving a god and Eli is preaching freedom from the gods. One wonders if Eli isn't being used by Callisto's god also. ELi never seemed interested in substituting a new religion for the old. CherylA > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:27:05 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Oxygen Xena Marathon For those out there who get Oxygen there will be a Xena marathon this Sunday (10/27) starting at 10 AM Eastern. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:22:59 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Jacqueline Kim Watching the preview of Twilight Zone I thought I saw Jacqueline Kim on the preview for tomorrow night's episode. Am I right? CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #291 **************************************