From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #252 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, September 13 2002 Volume 02 : Number 252 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Wil Wheaton/Creation ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: End Game [Sojourner > ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] DVD order query ["Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 12 September 2002 05:33, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/10/02 9:01:38 PM Central Daylight Time, > cande@sunlink.net writes: > > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > > << Brutus > gratefully accepts and even allies with the Amazons. Xena then bluntly > undermines Brutus's faith in Caesar pointing out that he has betrayed all > his so-called friends, Pompey, Crassius and his very good friend Xena. >> > > This is one of my all-time favorite Lucy moments, beginning with the way > Xena rides disdainfully up to Brutus, culminating in the way she delivers > that line about Caesar betraying his friends, then punctuated when she > delivers Pompey's head. Oh yes, and the obtaining of said item was the occasion for a great line too - - (Thwack) "It isn't about balance any more". It's wide open to interpretation, but mine is, that unlike When in Rome and A Good Day when Xena was using Pompey and Caesar to keep each other in check, now it's total war and Caesar is right back at No 1 on Xena's hit list. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:11:21 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 12 September 2002 11:53, KLOSSNER9@aol.com wrote: > In The Price they made Xena's thuggery the whole heart of the episode. I didn't like The Price myself, but I didn't see Xena indulging in thuggery in it - rather, acting like a military commander in desperate circumstances has to act, I think. > Then they realized that to do that too openly would cause them to lose > viewers and the series would not go on as long as it could if they were > more subtle. So they often made Xena's rotten behavior an incident in > a larger episode, as in End Game, rather than the focus of the ep, as > in The Price. > > I don't like this myself. I never liked Sears' and Tapert's contempt for > Xena. Contempt for Xena? Excuse me but which show were you watching? I saw nothing but respect for a 'real' character with real emotions and real shortcomings. And yes, she did bad things and bad things happened to her. This is one of the reasons why the show was so 'real'. > I didn't like their repeatedly making Xena into a thug who couldn't control > herself and couldn't be saved from herself except by Gabrielle's constant > influence. I'd go part of the way on that but - nah. Your view is way too overstated and prejudicial for me. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:32:35 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Wil Wheaton/Creation On Sun, 8 Sep 2002 23:50:25 EDT, Trek4u269@aol.com wrote: >1. it is HIS website. If he feels that he is being mistreated then he >will publish it on HIS website. - --He can _do_ anything he likes on his Web site; I don't have to like it or agree with it. >2. IMO....Meeting with people personally makes it hard to be impartial. > > These cons are making tons of money. I am not gonna take >the word of someone unless it is the accountant. The cost for gold seats >etc. more than makes up many expenses. - --The people _are_ the company. Adam (co-owner), Lori (Adam's wife), and Gary (co-owner) have always treated me and my fan club in a polite and straightforward manner, was all I was saying. Do the math. If only 200 people came to the Hawai'i Con on the first day, and 100 came on the second day, @ $20 each, how much profit on the gate fees were there?? You can't _assume_ that each of these people bought any merchandise at all, plus there is a _cost_ for the merchandise to Creation, and not all the tables were Creation tables (many were private vendors). If they had several speakers and each of the speakers charged at least $5,000 as a speaking fee, plus they had to pay hotel and _First Class_ air fare, plus hotel and air fare for their staff, plus staff salaries, they were already broke when they came here. The Gold seats you are talking about are for larger cons, which I previously said is where they recoup their $$. They don't make any $$ on the smaller ones, and in fact, lose $$ there. > If they were just breaking even after all these years they wouldnt >keep expanding into more and more fandom and wouldnt get bigger. Broke >and break even companies fold. - --Remember a few years ago they wanted to *sell* the company to the same company that owns (forgot the name)?? That meant they were either not making $$ and/or getting tired of doing the same thing all these years. As far as I know, the company is not expanding in size or staff. They may be trying to cover other areas of Sci-Fi not covered previously, but certainly just as a survival move. Just to clarify, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:39:35 EDT From: Trek4u269@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Wil Wheaton/Creation 1. will wheaton. My point about his site is that he didnt go somewhere and complain like here or another list. He vented on his own website. If I vent on my website it isnt whining since people choose to go there to see what I said. Going someowhere to complain can be seen as whining...and I am not a wheaton fan. Any business that does conventions will have their dog locations and by the same token they also have their primo locations. ANd who goes to a con and doesnt get any sovenirs. When we did cons in 70s we took into account people would buy things. During college in oklahoma the local cons did good to get 2nd and 3rd tier stars. Here in hollywood and los angeles area they do poorly if they dont get at least 4 top stars. Instead of using hawaii as an example look at 2001 xena pasadena con. Maybe i just need to pop over there again and just see what is happening. Not from the top people but from the grunts and people that do the work and sales . It is irrelevant anyways since fans are 50-50 on how cons treat the fans. That will never change. The average fan that NEVER speaks to anyone in the industry or involved in their shows and goes to a local con on a limited basis (or saves up to go to a con) knows things based on what they see and can afford. They have no insider info or insight. They can log onto a website but how many people here met with creation execs? Everything is based on perception. Have a great weekend everyone and heres hoping the bernie mac show on the 18th is good and the space show on friday is tolerable ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:15:13 -0700 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena Fan Club Kit #6 SURVEY We're working on kit 6 which will have Coffee Talk 2 with Lucy and Renee as well as other videos as part of it. With the increase in demand for DVDs, we're wondering if we should make only a DVD version of kit 6. Or should we release kits with an option for VHS or DVD. Input would be appreciated :) Sharon Official Xena Fan Club P.S. Please pass along. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:21:25 -0400 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: End Game Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:53:43 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com CherylA wrote: "This is a long way from the two people we saw in The Price each condemning the other for their decisions." Boeotian wrote: "No, I don't think the show's makers were being at all nice to Xena in this ep. It was one of the last eps written by Stephen Sears, who was always happy to stick a shiv into Xena. I think what they did was very simple -- Xena turned into a rotten thug again and proposed a despicable plan, burning prisoners alive. Cabrielle rejected the idea with contempt. End of incident." Actually the plan though brutal was a good one and it made sense. She is fighting for the very life of the Amazons and she was out numbered. So she had to figure out a way to kill large numbers of Pompey's troops. Fire works really well - it not only kills but will causes panic in the other troops. Don't forget modern soldiers use flame throwers and naplam for the same effect. As for Xena being a "rotten thug" I don't think Xena would argue with you. She has described herself as "only a kick-ass warrior". In this instance I don't see her tactics as thugery but as stragety which she sees as necessary. Is it cruel and savage? Yes but Xena doesn't seem overly proud of the plan when it is revealed to Gabrielle. In fact she seems a bit embarrassed by it but I don't think she sees any choice. When confronted by Gabrielle her response isn't that of a thug. A thug would have dismissed Gabrielle's concerns with comtempt or had been defensive but Xena prsents her case logically. "Xena did not give up the idea because it became "unnecessary." The issue of necessity didn't change in the few seconds before Xena proposing the plan and Gabrielle rejecting it. Xena backed down because she couldn't challenge Gabrielle in front of the Amazons. " No the situation did change drastically. With Brutus's decision to fight with the Amazons, Xena didn't need her trap. Gabrielle also did not reject the plan - she wasn't pleased with it and she well may have rejected it but Brutus intervened before she made her decision. I think Xena didn't want to challenge Gabrielle in front the Amazons but not because she was afraid of the Amazons' reaction - they in fact were quite pleased with Xena's plan if Amarice was any example - I believe she did so because she repected Gabrielle's opinion. Xena knows herself and knows her own level of ruthlessness and she does depend on Gabrielle to point out moral boundaries to her. "I never liked Sears' and Tapert's contempt for Xena." I know that Sears was certainly a Gabfan but Tapert I believe was a Xenafan. I don't think either have a contempt for Xena in fact I do believe TPTB rather admired Xena and her philosphy of war. Poor Gabrielle's brush with pacifism was treated with much more contempt. "I didn't like their repeatedly making Xena into a thug who couldn't control herself and couldn't be saved from herself except by Gabrielle's constant influence. They thought they were being clever turning the series into The Very Slow Rehabiliation of Hitler Show. I always wanted a positive view of Xena but we rarely got it." The relationship between Xena and Gabrielle is one of balance. That is their dynamic. Xena is pulled from the darkness by Gabrielle but then Xena saves Gabrielle from decisions based on an overly idealistic view of the people just as often. Also this show is about the redeemption of Xena. To have the redeemption theme be effective the person who is redeemed must be very, very bad. If Xena had been just sort of bad but with a good heart then the redeemption is a pretty pallid afair. Xena has to be so bad that her tremendous guilt is realistic. Did Tapert go to far? Maybe but if you read ancient history or even the Bible war in the ancient world was pretty brutal - massacers and torture abound. Xena was a warrior of her time - no worse than Caesar, Alexander, or any other ancient warrior but what makes her different is that she comes to realize that this brutality is wrong and she wants to change. This is not a characteristic of a common thug. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:28:29 +0100 From: Sojourner Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: End Game Much to-ing and fro-ing SNIPPED >"I never liked Sears' and Tapert's contempt for Xena." Whose contempt did you like, then? >I know that Sears was certainly a Gabfan but Tapert I believe was a Xenafan. >I don't think either have a contempt for Xena in fact I do believe TPTB rather >admired Xena and her philosphy of war. Poor Gabrielle's brush with pacifism >was treated with much more contempt. As it so richly deserved. >"I didn't like their repeatedly making Xena into a thug who couldn't control >herself and couldn't be saved from herself except by Gabrielle's constant >influence. They thought they were being clever turning the series into The >Very Slow Rehabiliation of Hitler Show. I always wanted a positive view of >Xena but we rarely got it." There is such a discontinuity between how you see this and how I see it. I disagree with your first two sentences to such a degree that it seems a bit odd to be even responding. They didn't. They didn't. Too bad. Sojourner - xenafan, gabfan, xwpfan, all-round TPTB fan ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:29:47 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> cr wrote: "I found that scene, though logical, almost embarrassing. Gabrielle _looked_ so hypocritical, urging the Amazons on to fight while staying safely behind the lines. I know what was behind it, Gabrielle's conflict between her own conscience / Way of Peace and her obligations as Amazon Queen, which is a good plot point, but visually it just looked terrible to me. Even your argument about the queen staying safe from capture, though valid, doesn't really offset the unfortunate appearance of the scene. I think maybe she should have done what Marga did, delegated command of the troops in battle to someone else (Varia in Marga's case, though as it happened that didn't seem to stop Marga from taking a leading role). " Well in actuality she did designate Xena as the Amazon's commander. I can however see that Gabrielle's enthusiastic support of the Amazons does make her seem a hypocrite but I really never believed Gabby's pacificism. I always thought it was more of a temporary mechnaism for her to cope with problems she had with the increasing violence in her life and the choices she has made up to this point. As Hanumen said it is very bad when some one is stuck between two paths and Gabrielle is at this point stuck between her abhorance of violence and her attraction to it. She is both poet and a warrior. After Ides she embraces the warror with the enthusiasm she embraced peace and it's not until season six that she comes to gripes with find the balance between her two sides. "Aside from mere appearances, though, there's also the moral issue that if Gabrielle approved of the war (as you say), why could she not fight in it? OK, her Way of Peace. " I can see Gabrielle more as a political leader of the Amazons in this episode. After all the president is Commander in Chief of the miliatry but we haven't had a president lead soldiers into combat since James Madison and he nearly got captured by the British. It was then pretty much decided that generals should command armies and not our politicians, even those who were generals. Gabrielle not fighting sort fits in there for me. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:57:10 -0700 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] DVD order query Has anyone been able to order the DVD using Netscape? If not, what version of Netscape are you using? If so, what version are you using? Sharon Official Xena Fan Club Creation Ent. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:59:18 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Follow The River question I have tried to watch this movie three times and everytime I only catch part of it so I want to know: 1. What happened to ROC's character? 2. Did Nancy Allen and Ellen Bursten ever make it home? It's a good movie but either I mess up the time or I don't know that's it on. So please, someone, answer my questions. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #252 **************************************