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Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #235
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chakram-refugees-digest    Tuesday, August 27 2002    Volume 02 : Number 235



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Play's The Thing>>      [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Way>>  [Sojourner <sojourner@paradise.net.nz>]
  [chakram-refugees] <<The Convert>>      ["Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>]
  [chakram-refugees] Re: Play's The Thing  ["Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Convert>>                     [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Play's The Thing                [IfeRae@aol.com]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:23:39 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Play's The Thing>>

On Monday 26 August 2002 09:04, Cheryl Ande wrote:
> #
> #
> #
> ##
>


>
>  Gabby is nothing but enthusiastic and when she catches on to this idea -
> she is a director obsessed.  I love when she confronts her cast and
> announces her change of heart after trying to get her rather dense cast to
> understand her simile about a flower having a smell if no one is around to
> smell it she announces with maniacal glee that she is "going to jam this
> little flower down the audiences throat'" and as for the critics "we'll
> kill em'all".  From then on Gabby lets the blood flow, hot tubs abound and
> when Minya and Paullina (the play's Xena ) gets into brawl Gabby eggs the
> combatants on.  It's a wonderful comic performance by Renee.

And you don't see this as Gabby 'selling out'?    As I recall that was a 
common complaint when the ep aired.   Myself, I just thought the whole thing 
was a good satire on showbiz and ROC did it well.

> There are also nice touches here and there.  There are lot inside jokes -
> the audition looks suspiciously like the costume contest at the
> conventions. Producer's get their share of lambasting - Joxer is now a
> producer and certainly this seems to indicate that producer's may not be
> the brightest people in the world but they do have a handle on the lowest
> common denominator when selling entertainment.  

I get the impression that TPTB quite enjoy 'sending themselves up'.    The 
most explicit example, of course, being the two Herc eps Yes Victoria and For 
Those of you Just Joining Us.   (Which XWPfans really should see - they 
feature Bruce Campbell, Kevin Smith, ROC, Hudson, Gina Torres and several 
other familiar faces).

>
> Also there are some nice performances by supporting players.  Alison Wall
> once again appears as Minya who is a cynical commentator on the action. 
> Polly Baigent, as Paullina the very bad but very acrobatic actress who is
> cast as Xena, is funny in her ongoing feud with Minya.  

That pair were good.   And they recurred, of course, in Clones.
And of course the casting of 'Xena' was a *huge* 'in'-joke (one of many in 
the ep), since Polly Baigent was of course Lucy's regular double as Xena.

> In a very funny
> finale Minya and Paulina apparently make-up when Minya discovers that she
> is a thespian - which leave a puzzled X & G wondering if that is what Minya
> actually meant. 

Whatever happened to poor ol' Hower?   I guess he must've faded from the 
scene long ago.

> Peter Muller is also good as the arrogant centaur actor who
> won't play quadrupeds and wants to direct.  

Another good 'in'-joke, since Peter Muller had played Deric the Centaur in As 
Darkness Falls, whose girlfriend Lyla was played by - Lucy Lawless!

> This is a Xena lite episode but
> LL is funny as a disgruntled Xena who is left behind in the field as Gabby
> goes off to look for her missing scroll 

Loved that moment.   For once Xena is taken at her word and disconcerted by 
the response.    LL's good at grumbling.   

Usually it's Gabby who has that sort of moment - 
G: "You're gonna have to kill the both of us!"
Warlord: "All right."
(the only good moment in Giant Killer)

> and she [LL] is none too pleased to be
> described as a bad actress by a warlord.
I do love those in-joke moments where there's an extra meaning lurking behind 
the lines.

> I think the weakest point in this episode is the writing.  I mentioned by
> problems with the con played on Gabrielle.  

I didn't think that was particularly 'dumb' on Gabrielle's part.   I think 
Xena would be too suspicious to fall for it, but I could certainly imagine 
someone like Auto falling for it.

Overall, I thought it was a passable comedy ep - not one of the top ones, but 
quite watchable.

cr
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:46:01 +0100
From: Sojourner <sojourner@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Way>>

At 18:57 20/08/2002 -0400, Cheryl Ande wrote:
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>#
>X & G decide to travel him and encounter Hanuman, the monkey god.  He looks a
>little like a wookie but better groomed and with a lovely Anglo-Indian
>accent.

No?! Really?!  I'm no Anglo-Indian, but really?!?

Xena meanwhile now is told by Hanuman that she must ask Krishna for help to
>rescue her friend.  Xena is not pleased about this since "she doesn't trust
>gods, doesn't think she needs then and doesn't like them".  Reluctantly she
>agrees and Krishna appears.  Krishna as portrayed here is a rather a charming
>"personification of ultimate godhood" he has a nice air of amused compassion.
>When Xena describes herself as just an "angry ass-kicking warrior" Krishna
>tells Xena that there is nothing wrong with this.  If she fights for a just
>cause then her karma will be fullfilled and to ride into battle unafraid and
>if called upon he will help.  Xena has now found her way - a way that will
>lead to sainthood.

She seemed kinda hard to convince. It's all the fault of the blonde 
side-kick looking all horrified whenever Xena kicks butt. Oh no, she looks 
turned on.... I have just watched Locked Up, Tied Down - and X's desire to 
be spanked (aka punished) is truly humbling.

You know, there was a lot of comment in that ep about the poor work by the 
supporting actors - but when you are watching the eps close up on a laptop 
DVD, then it is very easy to be much more involved in the story and stop 
your critical faculties going off like a sky-rocket.

   Xena appears and saves
>Gabby by cutting off the deamon's hand off only to have it replaced by six
>arms.  Xena battles IInjradit only to have her arms cut off.  As she lies
>dying she calls on Krisna who transforms her into Kali, the destroyer goddess.
>In a bloody and savage fight, whose best moment comes when Xena aka Kali naws
>on Injradit's hand, Xena beheads the demon king.

Gnaws, darling, GNAWS. That was a fairly disgusting fight scene - I believe 
it got pulled in one Canadian market because it was ultra- violent. However 
I am very much looking forward to the release of S4, pt2 here in the UK 
which has the Indian arc - unlike cr I really like that arc.


Snipped really interesting philosophical discussion to get to the plain 
superficial where I live these days



>I also have just plain personal problems with the episode.  I hated Xena's
>hair - she looks better in bangs and Gabrielle needs shoes. Ifshe had had
>shoes she wouldn't have been captured by Injradit (not to mention a better
>running dress).  ROC also felt the need for shoes and later put her foot down,
>literally, and demanded footwear when Rob wanted Gabrielle to stay
>bare-footed.

The india arc saw X's hair get sparser up front, until the Way where the 
fringe (or bangs, if you MUST) disappears altogether. I'm glad she ditched 
it too.

I liked Gabby's dress, until she was running from the flying carpet. I 
could not believe that ROC, a slim little thing at the best of times, could 
have her butt look so enormous. I woulda sued Rob if I was her. Though I 
guess Rob wasn't director ("run away from the camera, Renee") or the 
costume designer ("how big do you want her butt to look????").


 > I liked Gabrielle's haircut too.

Yeah - after the poofiness of the new haircut died down, I didn't miss the 
long hair for more than 2-3 weeks, tops.

I was also amused to see all those uber-fanfic stories which had the uber-G 
cut her hair half-way through!

Sojourner
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:43:21 -0400
From: "Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] <<The Convert>>

@
@
@

@
@
@@


The Convert is a pretty good episode.  Joxer takes his hat off and is serious.
Najara, one of our more enjoyable whacko, returns to try once again to seduce
Gabrielle to the way of peace and goodness - now if you believe that there's a
bridge I can sell you.

The episode begins with a temple being attacked by a warlord.  The warlord has
carried off the young women of the temple and as Xena and her posse arrive, he
is beating the daylights out of a mysterious woman.  Xena fights the warlord
and pushes him into Joxer accidentally kills him the enemy's own weapon.
Gabrielle rescues the girls by blowing powder in the bad guys' faces (yes you
heard me right - let's all give thanks for Rob and Lucy's procreating
proclivities that pacifist Gabby had to be ditched in about three episodes
from now).  The mysterious woman turns out to be Najara who has escaped from
prison but has put done the sword.

Najara is character that you really have to learn to appreciate.  She is just
wonderfully manipulative.  She knows just which buttons to push for both gals.
With Gabby she is just so vulnerable and makes Xena always seem like such a
thug.  In the village when Gabby tending to her on the litter Xena comes as
says she is sending Najara and scoffs at her alleged reformation, Najara just
huddles against Gabrielle seeking her protection.  Then whenever she and
Gabrielle alone she emphasizes their similar paths.  She tells Gabby that Eli
has converted her too -what a coincidence.  I always wondered about this - I'm
sure Eli came to the prison and Najara sweet-talked him out every bit
information he had about Gabrielle.  Information she uses now.  She never
challenges Gabrielle's love for Xena but she chips away at the incompatibility
of Gabrielle's way and Xena's way.  She hammers a way at Gabrielle's lingering
doubts about Xena's violence.

As for Xena, Najara can always make her feel vulnerable.  Xena is frustrated
by Gabrielle's belief that Najara has changed and it is causing arguments
between them.  Najara now begins to work on Xena.  Surely if Xena can change
why can't she change.  Xena says that Najara hasn't changed she is just the
same old wacko with a new philosophy.  Najara then zeros in on Xena's greatest
fears - she says that Xena hasn't changed she has just changed sides.  She,
Najara, is offering Gabrielle a life of peace while Xena is leading her to a
violent death so is the real villain her.

Najara has really zeroed on Gabrielle's and Xena's most basic beliefs.
Gabrielle believes that Najara has reformed because she absolutely believes
that Xena has changed.  If Xena can changed why can't Najara.  Xena however
deep inside never has accepted her own reformation - there is truth in
Najara's assertion that she has merely changed sides.  Xena knows that you
can't change your core personality.  Xena will always be the warrior she can't
change that - she can only change why she fights.  Xena knows Najara can't
change -  she is a fanatic at heart and she can see that she still has selfish
motivations despite all her talk of peace and doing good.  So Gabrielle and
Xena come to an impasse over Najara - Gabrielle must believe in Najara because
she must believe in Xena and Xena can't believe in Najara because she knows
that she herself hasn't changed.

Now Najara may have been able to really put a dent in Xena and Gabrielle's
relationship if she just hadn't gone psycho.   In perhaps one the more
implausible developments Najara attacks Gabrielle.  Xena in a fight with a
group bad guys is wounded and Gabrielle is about to enter the fight (a
foreshadowing of Ides Of March) only to pulled back by Najara.  Najara now
loses it she demands that Gabby hear her jinn's voices and is infuriated when
Gabby can't.  Perhaps what has happened to Najara is that when Gabrielle jumps
up to help Xena, forgetting about her way of peace, she realizes she just
doesn't have a chance with Gabrielle and she snaps.  Whatever the reason Xena
now has here chance to kick the hell out of Najara which she does.  In a
brutal fight scene, Najara and her  fight over Gabrielle like two big dogs in
heat (and let's face it that what this fight is about - Gabrielle not the
great good or any other noble sentiments.  Najara loses and last we see her
she's in a coma at the Sister's of Gaia's hospice.

We then have a little coda at the episode's end which I find annoying in the
extreme.  Gabriele says about Najara that sometimes when push comes to shove
sometimes you just have to shove back but she can't do that nay more.  Xena
then chimes in that with her around Gabrielle won't have to.  Thus we have the
basic hypocrisy of pacifism as practiced in the Xena verse.  Gabrielle will be
non-violent blowing powder at the bad guys and will never sully her soul with
violence because she has Xena around who will sully her soul beating the crap
out the people who threaten the pacifist.

Let's not forget our subplot.  Joxer's guilt over killing the warlord and his
efforts to tell the warlords good-heart son.  Ted Raimi is very good at the
guilt-stricken wannabe warrior.  It would have been a very effect episode if
this marked a change in Joxer's character - if we now had a comic relief
character with more depth but it is no to be.  Joxer will return just as
deluded as ever and it will be as if this episode never happened.  This is
disappointing because unlike most shows characters do learn and change because
of past experiences unfortunately not Joxer.  That was shame for Joxer and Ted
Raimi.

New commentaries next week.  I'm going to DragocCon.  I anyone on the list is
going let me know.  I'd be happy to get together.  Ask Lee Daily I behave
really well in public - honest.

CherylA
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:48:04 -0400
From: "Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Play's The Thing

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "cr" <cr@orcon.net.nz>

"And you don't see this as Gabby 'selling out'?    As I recall that was a
common complaint when the ep aired.   Myself, I just thought the whole thing
was a good satire on showbiz and ROC did it well."

Does Gabrielle sell out?  Yeah but she has a really good argument.  What
good is a message of peace if no one hears the message.  But I do think she
also really, really wants to be successful - after all Gabby has always
craved recognition and acceptance.  It's part of her character but she also
has a lot of integrity so when she is told her new and improved play
inspires warlords to mayhem she goes back to her orginal play.  But it is
also a nice piece of satire on how easily it is to become corrupted by the
lure of fame and success.


" I get the impression that TPTB quite enjoy 'sending themselves up'.    The
most explicit example, of course, being the two Herc eps Yes Victoria and
For
 Those of you Just Joining Us.   (Which XWPfans really should see - they
feature Bruce Campbell, Kevin Smith, ROC, Hudson, Gina Torres and several
other familiar faces)."

Yes those who upset by the fans being made fun of in Clones and Soul
Possession forget that TPTB were really brutal with themselves in those two
Herc episodes which were couple of my favorites.  I especially like Bruce as
Rob, the producer who cared more about fishing than his show.
>
> >
>
"Whatever happened to poor ol' Hower?   I guess he must've faded from the
scene long ago."

Yeah I liked Hower.  I hope Minya was gentle with him when she outs herself
as a thespian.
>

>
>
" Loved that moment.   For once Xena is taken at her word and disconcerted
by  the response.    LL's good at grumbling. "

She alos pouts well.
>
"I didn't think that was particularly 'dumb' on Gabrielle's part.   I think
Xena would be too suspicious to fall for it, but I could certainly imagine
someone like Auto falling for it."

Oh I don't think Gabby was dumb.  Just a bit innocent but you know it
wouldn't appear that she was being taken advanatge of.  She put up no money
and was given complete freedon to her play as she wished, so from her point
of view what could  Zehra and her henchman gain from her except to make
money of a successful play..
>
CherylA
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:27:54 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Convert>>

In a message dated 8/26/02 5:37:58 PM Central Daylight Time, 
cande@sunlink.net writes:

 
 @
 @
 @
 
 @
 @
 @@
 
 
 << Najara is character that you really have to learn to appreciate.  She is 
just
 wonderfully manipulative.  She knows just which buttons to push for both 
gals.>>

Absolutely!  Whereas Callisto was deliciously "in your face," Najara is 
wonderful at saying just the right thing.  Both villains were painfully 
honest and on-the-mark in getting to our gals, but in intriguingly different 
ways.  Throw Alti in the mix, and we have some great villains to challenge 
our heroes.

 << Now Najara may have been able to really put a dent in Xena and Gabrielle's
 relationship if she just hadn't gone psycho.   In perhaps one the more
 implausible developments Najara attacks Gabrielle.  Xena in a fight with a
 group bad guys is wounded and Gabrielle is about to enter the fight (a
 foreshadowing of Ides Of March) only to pulled back by Najara.  Najara now
 loses it she demands that Gabby hear her jinn's voices and is infuriated when
 Gabby can't.  Perhaps what has happened to Najara is that when Gabrielle 
jumps
 up to help Xena, forgetting about her way of peace, she realizes she just
 doesn't have a chance with Gabrielle and she snaps.>>

Actually, I was waiting for Najara to go "off."  She'd been portrayed as 
having a veneer of rationality that hid a true dysfuntionality -- obvious in 
Callisto, but so much in Najara.  I believe Xena had warned Gabrielle about 
what Najara might do if challenged, and that's exactly what happened.  She'd 
gotten Gabrielle where she wanted her, only to see Gabrielle question leaving 
Xena to fight on her own.  Najara's behavior at being disobeyed seemed quite 
believable to me -- especially since Najara's "convert" (Gabrielle) wanted to 
help Najara's enemy (Xena).

 << We then have a little coda at the episode's end which I find annoying in 
the
 extreme.  Gabriele says about Najara that sometimes when push comes to shove
 sometimes you just have to shove back but she can't do that nay more.  Xena
 then chimes in that with her around Gabrielle won't have to.  Thus we have 
the
 basic hypocrisy of pacifism as practiced in the Xena verse.  Gabrielle will 
be
 non-violent blowing powder at the bad guys and will never sully her soul with
 violence because she has Xena around who will sully her soul beating the crap
 out the people who threaten the pacifist.>>

One of the risks XWP took was showing the fallabilities of its heroines, 
showing them as evolving, not having mastered a particular issue by the end 
of an ep.  Gabrielle is basically saying she understands why force may be 
necessary (which she must do if she is to justify Xena and her life with 
Xena), even as she struggles with how to deal with that in nonviolent ways.  
Xena is basically "supporting" Gabrielle by encouraging her to be dependent 
- -- which Gabrielle really doesn't want to be (and serves to justify Xena's 
butt-kicking "protection").  

I always felt that conunrum was the focal point of the pacifism, not the 
pacifism itself.  It showed how well-intentioned people could seem 
hypocritical (which both G&X could be accused of), as they tried to deal with 
their real world and personal needs.  Unfortunately, by itself, any one ep 
could seem to be promoting an idea that it was, instead, exploring in many 
ways in many eps.  Still, I liked that the series didn't offer "easy" or 
"pat" answers.

 <<Let's not forget our subplot.  Joxer's guilt over killing the warlord and 
his
 efforts to tell the warlords good-heart son.  Ted Raimi is very good at the
 guilt-stricken wannabe warrior.  It would have been a very effect episode if
 this marked a change in Joxer's character - if we now had a comic relief
 character with more depth but it is no to be.  Joxer will return just as
 deluded as ever and it will be as if this episode never happened.  This is
 disappointing because unlike most shows characters do learn and change 
because
 of past experiences unfortunately not Joxer.  That was shame for Joxer and 
Ted
 Raimi.>>

What struck me about this ep was Joxer's cluelessness about his truly heroic, 
decent spirit.  He taught both Xena and Gabrielle a thing or two by insisting 
on fulfilling his duty to Armande.  His true tragic flaw to me was that he 
acted heroically on several occasions, yet always yearned to be the dark side 
of someone he already was.  He wasn't my favorite character, but after this 
ep I cared a lot more about him than I did before -- especially because he 
didn't.  I don't mind that he didn't "grow," as this is what made him so 
poignant to me.  He continued to be a simple guy with a simple heart who 
simply did his best for his friends because that's *simply* who he was.  The 
sad part was that he never valued that for what it was worth.
 
- -- Ife
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:32:30 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Play's The Thing

In a message dated 8/26/02 5:42:25 PM Central Daylight Time, 
cande@sunlink.net writes:

<< Oh I don't think Gabby was dumb.  Just a bit innocent but you know it
 wouldn't appear that she was being taken advanatge of.  She put up no money
 and was given complete freedon to her play as she wished, so from her point
 of view what could  Zehra and her henchman gain from her except to make
 money of a successful play..
 > >>

Oh, excellent point!  What did she really have to lose, except perhaps some 
untested notions about what life as a famous writer could really be like?

- -- Ife
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