From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest)
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Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #209
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chakram-refugees-digest     Tuesday, July 30 2002     Volume 02 : Number 209



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article                [Trek4u269@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article                [HawkFalco@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Daughter of Pomira>>        [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  [chakram-refugees] Fwd: A weekend in the life 3      [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] << If The Shoe Fits>>>        [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article             [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article             [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  [chakram-refugees] M'Lila returns?                   [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Whoosh Article                      [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article                [Trek4u269@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Whoosh Article                   [Trek4u269@aol.com]
  [chakram-refugees] Xena email Family                    [Trek4u269@aol.com]
  [chakram-refugees] Re: daughter Of Pomira  ["Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.n]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 01:19:23 EDT
From: Trek4u269@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article

Bad apples do spoil the bunch. 
Imagine rob or lucy reading the article or hearing about it while at a con or 
right before it.....think it wont effect their mood?
And while Mr. angry sits home eating cheese wiz and twinkies the real fans 
suffer (yes real fans...people that appreciate what is done and express their 
dislike in a NON PERSONAL manner).

what did he hope to accomplish by bashing people that worked for 6 seasons on 
a show AND the show is nop longer on the air. It is over. Say you hated the 
episode and move on. It is tv. The 911 terrorism, child kidnappings and 
murders, trapped miners, daily predjudice and racism are all real issues. 
....not a fantasy tv show that isnt even about real people or events.
And would this person have nerve to say it to their faces- no.

This is a cowards way to attack people to get some cheap laughs from other 
bitter people.
We all have the right to an opinion and to express it but we also have to 
respect others right to write as they see fit and express as well. No 
respect.
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 03:25:00 EDT
From: HawkFalco@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article

After reading the many responses to this thread I went on over to Whoosh and 
read the article in question for myself. I could barely get through it. After 
slogging through that profanity I felt as if I needed a good hot bath. The 
best I can say for it is "free speech and everybody is entitled to their 
opinion", no matter how wrong they are.
With that trash out of the way, I highly encourage you all to read the 
several other FIN articles in that same Whoosh issue. For the most part, I 
found them engaging, thoughtful, interesting, and well written, even in the 
instances where I did not agree with the author.  In short, everything Mr. 
Going's offering was not. 
You may note that I have not stated my own view of FIN one way or the other. 
To me that is not the point right here and now. To my mind the point is can 
the authors write a clear and moving piece about "A Friend In Need" and what 
it ment to them. Not about supposed hidden agendas, paranoid musings on what 
certain quotes, and dragging certain people through the mud. This is one 
article where I wish Whoosh would have exercised the very censorship that Mr. 
Going ranted about. He deserved it.

My two cents
Hawk
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:02:13 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Daughter of Pomira>>

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 00:57, cande@sunlink.net wrote:
> I thought Gab was being naive again, taking Xena's considerate (and very
> optimistic) reassurance at face value.   That actually niggled me - here's
> Xena being kind to her and she gets boastful about it.   I think maybe that
> line was intended as Gabs being facetious or sceptical about it and ROC's
> reading was a little bit off.
>
> cr
>
> You're just up to your old Gabby bashing way again (g).  I don't think
> Gabby took it seriously at all.  She has a small smirk when she said it and
> I saw it as teasing.
>
> CherylA

I *knew* someone would take it like that.   But really, that's how it struck 
me at the time.   I thought the smirk implied self-satisfaction, but I do 
prefer your interpretation.   

cr
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:02:45 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Fwd: A weekend in the life 3

- ----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: A weekend in the life 3
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:41:33 +0200
From: STORM <xenapage@interfree.it>
To: Xenaverse <xenaverse@mlists.com>

I think I'll have one more post before my report is finished, but I
don't know when I'll have the time to write it.

This time I'll talk about Adrienne Wilkinson and Paris Jefferson.

Paris was onstage with Adrienne the first day, and wasn't very
brilliant, IMHO.
Adrienne did nothing extraordinary, but Paris was too much 'detached'
so to speak, and compared to Adrienne she lost big time. You could ask
her anything, she just replied to the question, directly and pretty
flatly, period.
I mean, if you asked her what she had for breakfast, she replied 'tea'
and
was ready for the next question. Not that there's anything wrong with
it,
but first if you answer like that you need 48.750 questions to fill your
hour onstage, and second, you become boring really fast.
Adrienne otoh always tried to add some anecdotes to her replies, always
tried to share some funny moment or story, and was in general more
interesting.

As for stage presence, it was the same. Paris was glued to her spot,
sort of
Reneh last year, and never even moved the arm that held the microphone.
Adrienne moved a lot, tried to get closer to who made the question, used
her
hands a lot and in general showed more emotion. Mind you, you could see
that
Paris really *tried* to make some contact with the public, but her
efforts
weren't very effective (as Adrienne was last year in Pasadena, IMHO. She
has
improved tremendously since then). Probably Paris is more shy, yet she's
very charming and down to earth. (AND she has the most incredible eyes
and
voice of the whole Xena cast IMVHO).

Anyway. Paris said that she's moving to London, since she thinks it's
better
for her carreer. She said that in LA auditioning is an incredible
struggle,
since there are from 3.000 to 7.000 people running for each character in
every movie/show. (Tim also insisted that to be actors you need to be
really
motivated and to really love that job, because it's very beautiful, but
also
very difficult).

She told us how she got the part for Athena: she was in LA (or NY?)
doing a
play on Greek Gods and for which she had studied some mythology, when
her
agent told her of this audition. She went without too many expectations,
and
entered this big room where all the other actresses were waiting to be
called, and found herself 'surrounded by amazons' since there were
incredibly beautiful, tall, muscular women everywhere (she's not tall,
and
very thin).
"There were all these beautiful women and I thought ok, I'll see NZ some
other time, after all I knew that being cast as a goddess was difficult"
when a woman approaches her.
"Damn! You see that woman over there? (indicating a *very* beautiful
woman)
I find her in every audition I go to, and she *always* gets the part,
she's
so beautiful! She's here and she'll get this one, too! Shit!"
"And I thought, what am I, chopped liver? But I encouraged her, told her
don't say that, you'll make it, it's not beauty what matters, and so on,
and
in the end they chose me!"
She thinks that what gave her the part was the dignity and solemnity she
gave to the character. She says it's something she does well, since
she's
short and always had to find somewhere the authority her body doesn't
give
her.

She said that her costume was very comfortable, she didn't even need a
bustier. She was angry one day when she was on set, not wearing the
costume,
and a guy approached her and said:
"Hey, you really look better..." and she thought 'he'll say without make
up'
but he finished "when you wear the helmet!" LOL
"It isn't a wonder that he is without a woman..." she concluded
sarcastically!

I don't remember if she said anything on her plans for the future. She
said
that she loves theatre, because doing tv is pretty boring, with a lot of
time going on from a scene being shot to the next, and you're always in
and
out from character (and all the other guests agreed on it, looks like
the
wait is terrible).
I remember that she said that last year when it looked that a strike
would
took place she had a lot of free time (since everything was shot before
the
day the strike was scheduled to start) and she chose to go back to
college,
to study astrophisics! At least she's original.

She said that sometimes people recognized her for some of her roles, but
the
strangest time she was recognized has been at the convention, when a
woman
(a dentist nurse) recognized her from her mouth she had seen in a
commercial.

About the death scene of Athena's number one guard (Alanis?) she said
that
the actress who played Alanis was a really nice and talented person and
that
the director gave them total freedom on how to act the scene, for the
positions, gestures, everything, and she thinks the result was pretty
good.
In general she said that she doesn't know if Athena and Alanis were
lovers,
but that if Athena ever loved anybody, it had to be Alanis, she was the
most
important person in the world for her.

About the Xena cast, she almost got choked up on Kevin, and said that
after
him the nicest people are LL&ROC (anyone's surprised?). She says that
nobody
can do a fight scene like Reneh, while it took her (Paris) a lot of time
to
get how to do it. "Then I figured out that doing the moves that feel
good
never makes the fight look good. I only had to make it look good, no
matter
how silly I thought the moves were. On tv they were good, and that's
what
mattered."

Adrienne agreed completely. She said that the fistfight between
Gabrielle
and Varia took many hours of filming, and during all that time Reneh and
Tsianina always did the job themselves (only in a brief moment we see
the
stunt doubles). She had to stay all day standing, manacled, close to the
ring, so she was uncomfortable, but looking at what Reneh and Tsianina
were
doing she couldn't complain! She said that sometimes she was afraid that
they were going to hit each other, so fast they were!
At a certain point ROC falls back towards her, and has to spit fake
blood.
She was afraid that she was going to do it on her, since ROC was acually
going to fall, and the stuff tastes real horrible so one wants to spit
it
away as soon as possible, but she always (they did the shot 4 times)
managed
to do it perfectly, while falling.

About the scene where Gab gets chakramed, she sobered and apologized
"Yes,
I'm sorry, but it was my fault if Gabrielle got chakramed" LOL Nobody
had
ever guessed!!
Anyway, it hadn't to look like the scene we saw. She said she was very
surprised when she saw the finished episode (I think she always watched
the
finished eps).
"We had filmed it many many times, in different ways, and it never
occurred
to me that it would look like that. You had to see Xena (that was
outside
with Ares), realize that something was wrong and turn. She had to see
Gabrielle about to hit Eve, and the Furies beside her. She had to scream
'stop' and run in, while Gabrielle hit Eve again and again. Gabrielle
had to
hit Eve's spine too, so Eve was to be paralyzed for life. When Xena
arrived
Gab was still hitting Eve, and you could read Xena's thought, 'one more
and
my daughter will die!'. Only then she'd use the chakram. And then she'd
kill
the Furies too. This would make a lot more sense, because it would be
the
only way for Xena to save her daughter." (maybe I misunderstood, but I
think
that she said that she really got hit once by Reneh in one take, and has
a
scar from it)

She said that she believes that we got the scene we got because of lack
of
time. She said that over 1 and a half hours of film was cut from that
episode. Somebody asked her to ask TPTB to put those takes in the region
one
dvds (if they ever get made).

About Xena's apology to Gab, she said that it also was different at the
beginning, then was rewritten several times and filmed several times,
every
time shorter. "So it may look too brief, but it's better than nothing,
because it was just fair for Xena to apologize, both to Gabrielle and
the
fans."
She said that it was possible to film it only because that episode was
filmed out of order, specifically after Motherhood had aired, so they
knew
about the reactions of the public. If it had been filmed  in order, they
wouldn't have had the opportunity to do it since they couldn't know that
so
many people would have been outraged (I think that it didn't take a
genius
to figure it out...).

They asked about the cussing scene and thankfully she didn't repeat the
usual (that it's her fav scene yadda yadda), instead she praised a lot
Michael Hurst. She said that he's a very talented director, a real
professional, and that she learned a lot from him. In that scene he
didn't
want any stunt double, threw himself at the trees when she pushed him
(there
were prople cleaning his costume from leaves in between takes), and for
the
final time she hits him, he walked backwards on a raised platform from
which
he jumped down to fall on his back, and did it to enhance the realistic
effect of the fall.
She said that sometimes she, LL or ROC went to him all excited because
they
had come up with some idea for a scene, and he listened to them, thought
about their idea for a moment then said "Listen girls, I really
appreciate
that you try to make things even better, and I truly, truly appreciate
you
as actresses... but it's better the way it was scripted". She found this
very amusing. I think that if Rob had done the same, we would have been
spared Xena Warrior Rabbit.

About Alexis Arquette, she said that he's a sweetheart, and despite his
very
flamboyant appearence he's the quietest, down to earth person you can
imagine. She said that they were reharsing at his home and he was
constantly
apologizing:
"Here's Livia, the bitch of Rome! Um, Adrienne, you're ok with that,
right?
Because I don't want to hurt your feelings, you sure that's ok? We can
change that word maybe..." LOL

They asked her if usually actors know that they have to shoot dangerous
scenes, or with strange animals before or after they've signed the
contract.
She said that usually it's before, but that for the spider scene (in
Motherhood I think) they told her after.

That time they had been pretty vague, just asking if she was afraid of
spiders and she had said no. Then the day before the scene was to be
filmed
they called her and told her that they wanted her to meet the spider, so
that they could both get 'used to each other', and she didn't understand
why, but they insisted that it was better if they met... so they first
introduce her the spider's wrangler (she says that every living being
had
his/her wrangler on the set) and he tells her that the spider is an
endangered species and she has to be extra careful with him. Then they
introduce her the spider. She said that she didn't sleep well  that
night!
LOL

She says it's huge ("I swear they take it out on a leash!"), but after
the
first shock when you touch it it isn't so bad, it's a 'furry thing'...
that
jumps. She didn't like that thing a lot... basically whenever she moved
more
than her hand it jumped away, and it was a big problem.
In the scene she's sitting in the grass, talking to X&G, then she stands
and
walks away while X&G remain there, talking. Now, whenever she tried to
stand, it jumped away (or on Lucy or Reneh!), and she had to cover it
with
her hand and try to stand without crushing it, without tripping on her
costume and without letting it jump away.

It took several takes before she managed to do it right. And every time
she
was scared to have held it too tight ("I thought, oh my God I've done it
this time! I've killed an endangered species! Then I peeked and saw it
move
an breathed with relief"), or to have lost it in the grass. When they
called
cut for whatever reason, everybody, especially LL and ROC instantly
jumped
away from her (she had a face that said 'cowards!' LOL). And even
before,
nobody got close to her. Looked like the makeup, the hair, the costume
were
exactly perfect. Right! LOL
Anyway, she did the same, and when they said cut she often threw the
beast
away, and the wrangler arrived running and started searching "Where are
you
little one? The lady didn't mean it, you know, come here, spidey spidey
spidey!" ROFL

In general she says that on set they were really careful to the health
of
the actors. In You Are There for instance they had to answer a
questionnaire
asking if they were allergic to apples (and if an actor was, if he/she
had
to hold one they would have used a stunt's hand). Only when strictly
necessary actors were asked to do unpleasant things (she told Paris of
the
rat scene Lucy had to make in Locked Up, and Paris shivered, "that's
gross!
Did she grab the right rat?" LOL)

On her future appearances, she said that she filmed a tv show that
wasn't
bought so it won't air, but was a very challenging experience for her.
They
filmed on location without the people knowing they were used as extras,
and
shot all the scenes that took place in the same location at the same
time.
Problem is, they were filming an entire season, so some scenes took
place at
months of distance, and it was hard to rememebr what point of the story
they
were in, what had happened, what the characters were supposed to be
feeling
etc.

Another time her manager told her that a producer absolutely wanted her
for
a movie he was about to direct. So they all went to the most trendy
restaurant in LA to discuss the details, and started talking about her,
as
it was supposed to be.
Then, guess who enters?
Britney Spears. And she sits at the table next to hers! And obviously
the
manager and producer start talking only about Britney.
"Ok, she thought, she'll have my part. It happens". But who enters?
Hugh Hefner (sp?) and SIX Playmates and two huge bodyguards, and they
sit at
the table on the other side of theirs. And obviously the manager and
producer start talking only about the playmates.
Adrienne started laughing since the situation was really surreal, and a
bodyguard, thinking that she was making fun of his boss, approached and
with
extreme seriousness started shaking his head and Tsk-ing.
Adrienne managed to stop laughing and sort of apologized, but said she
was
really close to crack up. LOL I wonder why she didn't try her Livia
impression on the bodyguard...

That's it. Next time, dunno when, Hudson and Melinda! <swoon>

Storm

PS Feel free to crosspost, but if some interesting reply ensues, or if
somebody else who was there has something to add, send it to me, please!
I am aware I don't remember everything yet would love to!


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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:29:20 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] << If The Shoe Fits>>>

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 05:04, cande@sunlink.net wrote:
> #
>
> #
>
> #
>
> #
>
> #
>
> #
>
> #
>
>
>
> This has always been the episode I groaned over and used as evidence that
> there were truly awful episodes on Xena.  Well much to my surprise really
> enjoyed seeing it again.

Waah hey!   I actually liked it.   

Someone commented that people who were aware of or familiar with the old 
English tradition of pantomime, now only seen on TV at Christmas, were more 
likely to 'get' the episode than those who weren't.    I don't know how true 
that is, but maybe the fact you like it better on later viewing is because 
you're more familiar with the theme of the episode?


> Alicia the little girl was much less annoying this time around even if she
> still sounded like a munchkin on helium.  Alex Tyding is very sweet as the
> Love Goddess smitten by the little girl.

She wasn't bad.   (And normally I can't stand cute kids.   I must be getting 
soft in my old age.   When I'm about 90 I expect I'll really like Gabs.  ;)

>
>  Gabrielle isn't as jerky as I remebered.

Oh, Cheryl, ....    
  [ assorted whispers off:  'Give it a rest'  'Gab-hater!'    'Shut UP!!']

... umm, Cheryl, I applaud you for your frankness.  :)

[cr undergoes acute mental pain at wasting such a lovely set-up ]

>
> It is always fun to see Gabrielle and Xena bicker.  I have to say some of
> their interactionn is funny. Much to Gabrielle's annoyance she discovers
> that her beloved BGSB is missing and has been stolen, not by a fashionable
> beaver, 

'fashionable beaver' - loved it!!

> but by Xena looking for rope. This begins the minirift.  The
> violation of the BGSB makes into Gabby's Tyrella story in avery amusing
> psychbabble way. Then Xena volunteers to cook some fish and  then can't
> find the frying pan, the salt, the sugar (why she wants that for fish is a
> frightening indication of Xena's cooking skills)and is so helpless that a
> frustrated Gabrielle has take over grumbling to Xena "to give her the
> frying pan before she hurts someone".

For some reason I liked this much better than their similar bickering in Day 
in the Life.   Don't know why, nothing to do with subtext, I just thought 
this was funnier.

> Then Xena promptly sits her butt down and does nothing unti sent off for
> water.  Finally reduced to the fairygods-sister of dirty dishes in Xena's
> fairy story Gabby storms much to Xena's concernation.  Gabby then
> straightens out Aphrodite, returns to Xena in time to help take down the
> bad guys, and the little Xena family is reunited - Ahhh.
>
>
>
> The Tyrella stories are cute as Gabrielle, Xena, and Joxer inadvertantly
> reveal their attitudes.  Gabrielle mifted over her missing shirt has Xena
> as the ugly step-mother with intimacy problems.  Joxer of course woes
> Gabrielle.

I thought the stories were very clever.    Couldn't help laughing at the way 
they all rewrote the story to suit themselves.   

Gabby had Xena as the wicked stepmother, and did she look ugly.   And the 
little girl Alesia entered into the spirit of things when she said 'Tyrella 
...  stabs her evil stepmother, over and over and over and over again.'    
This is entirely in fairytale tradition and exactly what kids say, but of 
course Gabrielle is shocked, and the huge villain Zantar got a lovely smile, 
obviously he thought that was cool.    Zantar I thought was really good as 
the comic villain.

Gabby tries again:
TYRELLA 
There is nothing wrong with the dress. You anger is misplaced. It's 
a convenient way to avoid your deeper emotions, the same way that your 
mistreatment of me and my belongings, is your way to avoid intimacy. You 
both need to get in touch with your inner child. 
STEPMOTHER  (aside) 
You getting any of this? 


So Aphrodite took over and had herself as the (much more presentable) 
stepmother, but Gabby as a sort of village yokel with bad teeth and freckles. 
(Were Aph and Gabs having a feud at this time?   They evidently got much 
closer before Season 5).

IMO Joxer's version with him dancing in the ballroom went on much too long, 
but then he's Joxer, whaddaya expect?  ;)


Xena's story started with her in her regular armour until Alesia asked 
(voice-over) 'shouldn't Tyrella wear a dress?' and as if by magic, Tyrella's 
armour changed to a dress.    And the stepfather Zantar changed into a 
stepmother the same way.   That was classic.

> Xena doesn't need a prince for her happy ending just some one to do the
> irritating domestic choes so she can go fight the bad guys.

And the one she needed for that was - Gabrielle.    Too bad Gabrielle took it 
personally.

Actually, Zantar (Chris Ryan), the huge villain, was one who got many of the 
good comedy moments in this episode, as interested observer and occasional 
commentator in brief glimpses (the visual equivalent of one-liners).    

I remember him from Ten Little Warlords, btw, where he was taken aback by 
'Callisto's'  ferocity.

> One interesting point that this episode brings up is also one that is alos
> brought up in Daughter Of Pomira.  we have all seen youn Xena - mean,
> cynical,
> a terror to small children.  Yet in DOP she obviously was fond enough of
> Rahl's child to give her a gift.  Rahl and his wife if not overjoyed at her
> appearance certainly aren't frightened of her and readily accept her help.
> Then we have Alicia and her kindly father who is an old friend of Xena
> presumedly back when she was evil.  Add to this list Goliath, and the
> Hebrews from A Royal Couple Of Thieves and we seem to have a very different
> picture of
> Xena.  I have often wondered if Xena sometimes exagerated her evil
> character since it is usually through her words we hear of her evil deeds. 
> While certainly no angel I think Xena always had a soft spot for gentle and
> innocent.

Very acutely observed, and one that almost everyone seems to have overlooked.

That's certainly a possibility, isn't it.    Generally the only times Xena 
talked about her past is when part of it popped out of the woodwork and bit 
her on the bum, as we say in refined NZ culture  ;)

So it follows that she probably didn't have occasion to mention the 'good' 
i.e. less dramatic, more peaceful, less evil bits.

cr
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Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:21:06 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 19:25, HawkFalco@aol.com wrote:

> With that trash out of the way, I highly encourage you all to read the
> several other FIN articles in that same Whoosh issue. For the most part, I
> found them engaging, thoughtful, interesting, and well written, even in the
> instances where I did not agree with the author.  In short, everything Mr.
> Going's offering was not.

I know this list disapproves of 'me too's', but that is something I 
wholeheartedly agree with and I think forgot to mention in my previous 
rantings on the subject.   

There's a review of the FIN   DVD commentary, quite well written I think (I'm 
currently halfway through making a transcript of same myself);  an article by 
a very new fan who got 'hooked' on Sins of the Past and FIN DC in the same 
week - now that's original! ;  and one with an 'alternate' ending which is - 
ummm, way too long and subtexty for my taste, IMO it would pass muster but if 
I was the director I'd have cut it drastically.   (Trying to transcribe the 
DC commentary with Rob's comments has made my thoughts run along lines of 
'how should this be cut?')

> This is one article where I wish Whoosh would have exercised the very
> censorship that Mr. Going ranted about. He deserved it.

It seems to be Whoosh's policy (well I know it is 'cos Kym has said so) to 
publish anything that's legally printable, which of course is the webmaster's 
prerogative.    Personally, I think that since Whoosh is the most prominent 
and publicly known Xena site (and even acknowledged by TPTB in Soul 
Possession), that prominence carries with it a responsibility to exercise a 
certain editorial discretion in what gets printed.   I would hate to have 
some reporter from the gutter press, looking for dirt, to be able to take a 
quick look at Whoosh and report "No 1 Xena site calls Tapert a talentless 
fraud" or somesuch.    And I think it actually detracts from the other 
articles, just by association.    

It's not a matter of 'freedom of the press' or censorship IMO, either.   If 
Mr Going or other detractors really wanted to make their objections known, 
it's easy and cheap enough to set up their own site and put up their views.   
Just that by featuring them on Whoosh, they are given a prominence out of all 
proportion to their worth.   

cr
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:58:15 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 17:19, Trek4u269@aol.com wrote:

> This is a cowards way to attack people to get some cheap laughs from other
> bitter people.

I absolutely agree.  

IMO it's fair game to hate, loathe and detest a character - even if that 
character is Xena or Gabrielle - and say so.   (Not that there are any 
characters I hate that much  ;)    

But the actors are quite another matter.   They're people doing a job and as 
such are entitled to at least some respect for their efforts.   Even if I 
thought some actor was absolutely atrocious, the worst most untalented 
apology for an actor who should never have been allowed on the set - I think 
I'd reflect that they might, some day, by chance read my comments or others 
like them and water it down a bit.   

The same does *not* apply to people who write that sort of thing for Whoosh, 
though.  <very evil grin>

cr
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Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 01:24:12 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] M'Lila returns?

Well, I wish!    Not quite, but I was skip-fast-forwarding through an old 
backup tape with a copy of Sin Trade 1 on it to get to the end of the 
recording so I could use it as backup for Soul Possession tonight, when 
M'Lila flashed past.  I'd know her anywhere, even on a quarter-second glimpse 
on a fast-forwarded tape!  

Well, actually, it was indeed Ebonie Smith and it was a trailer for The 
Practice.   (OK, probably everyone but me knows she was on that series).   
I won't watch legal series, not even for Ebonie Smith (and probably not even 
for Lucy Lawless) but it reminded me how much I miss M'Lila.   
She's gorgeous   :)        If there's one character I really, really wish 
they'd brought back, it's her.   

Thinking back, I rather suspect my intense dislike of Romans originated when 
they killed her, even more than for breaking Xena's legs.   I didn't like 
*any* Romans until I felt sorry for the prisoners that Varia massacred in 
Path of Vengeance. 

cr
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:19:49 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Whoosh Article

> From: "Cheryl LaScola"

>  " One thing I find interesting is that those that who have expressed their
>  disdain for FIN and ultimately XWP and all those involved with the show, 
are
>  the ones who have chosen the low road trampling on the values (respect for
>  opposing points of view and freedom of expression) they
>   espouse to stand for (and feel are being persecuted for)."
>  

As one who has defended the overall intent of FIN and Xenastaff, I'd like to 
caution against doing something similar to those who don't feel the same way. 
 I did read G. Goings' article, as well as many posts that I admittedly 
thought were diatribes.  But when I stepped back, I saw a lot of 
disappointment, anger -- pain.  You don't usually get that from people who 
didn't care about something.  I have to remind myself that these people loved 
the show as much I, maybe even invested more of themselves into it.  Do I 
personally think that's realistic or healthy?  No.  Do I believe that excuses 
attacks -- many of them ill-informed and just wrong -- on Xenastaff?  No.  I 
can criticize their positions, their defamation of character, their words.  
But if I call them names or characterize them as malicious, idiots, etc., 
then I'm not sure how that differs from the "low road" they themselves may be 
taking.  I still think I'm right, of course, and that fans like Goings are 
wrong <beg>, but that doesn't make my condemnation of them "better."

- -- Ife
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:01:14 EDT
From: Trek4u269@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re Whoosh article

In a message dated 7/30/02 4:26:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz 
writes:


> It's not a matter of 'freedom of the press' or censorship IMO, either.   If 
> Mr Going or other detractors really wanted to make their objections known, 
> it's easy and cheap enough to set up their own site and put up their views. 
>   
> Just that by featuring them on Whoosh, they are given a prominence out of 
> all 
> proportion to their worth.   
> 
> 

well...freedom to express is okay but there is also the freedom to not 
publish an article because it DOES reflect upon the publisher of said 
article. What is someone used the same freedom to gay bash based on subtext 
and fandom-- Would it be appropriate to publish?
That is the same freedom of expression.

The good thing about them publishing the article is we are aware of bitter, 
hateful people existing in the xenaverse with intent on spreading hatred. It 
is a wakeup call that shows that the moderators of these lists are doing a 
great job because they do excerise the right to not "publish" hatred, flames 
or crap.
Too many varied personalities to not oversee what is printed.
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:22:14 EDT
From: Trek4u269@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Whoosh Article

From Cheryl-
But if I call them names or characterize them as malicious, idiots, etc., 
then I'm not sure how that differs from the "low road" they themselves may be 

taking.  

Members of hate groups are angry and bitter too.
Mad at equal rights, mad at gay rights, bitter about race mixing and same 
sex, bitter about multiple cultures living in a country they see as white 
heterosexual protestant america.
Making their web sites and newsletters to spread their disappointment, 
bitterness and anger at how the country is run and what is is now.
They feel let down.

Columbine kids were bitter, disgruntled postmen were bitter, terrorists were 
bitter, domestic violence perpetrators are bitter, etc.

A person cannot spread their cancerous hatred for cheap laughs and high fives 
from other bitter people (at the expense of the real life people you target) 
and not expect to be called out as a malicious whining cheap-shotting coward. 
I dont feel sorry for these people because there are many that suffer alot 
worse in their lives and wake up to it actual hell everyday and yet they 
smile and go on with their life and appreciate the good things and not 
concentrate on the negative.

i have written in and had others complain to whoosh as well as put out 
articles about giving "hate" a spotlight. 
Lets give all hate a forum on national tv and regular forums and see how 
tolerant we all are. 

In all my years on many lists i have never insulted anyone based on ther view 
or opinion of the show or a character.
I didnt call this guy an idiot....he screamed it to xenaverse when he 
attacked lucy and rob personally. 
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:29:53 EDT
From: Trek4u269@aol.com
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena email Family

Wanted to break away from the negative and say that it has been wonderful to 
be a part of this email list and meet some great people (here, pasadena con, 
etc).

It is nice to share the LOVE of a fandom with a good group

thanks
Vic
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:01:37 -0400
From: "Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: daughter Of Pomira

Ife Wrote:

" I also thought there was a parallel with Maternal Instincts, when the Horde
father's cry of pain at losing his daughter struck a chord with Xena --
humanizing him, as she may have recognized it as an echo of her own cry when
she lost Solan.  "

Yes you are very right.  When Cervik cried out in grief Xena is hiding in a
tree and we see a stunned look on her face.  I think at that moment she
identifies very much with Cervik.  The nice thing about this episode that it
is very much about fathers.  We have two fathers driven to distraction over
losing their daughter.  There is actually no good solution here.  Rahl doesn't
deserve to lose his daughter and in many ways Cervik doesn't deserve Pilee's
devotion (he did steal her apparently).  Hopefully Pilee can some how appease
both fathers both fathers but I don't know if that can happen.


Also there was one more thing I wanted to comment on. I said that Pilee is the
person Xena talks about in the end of The Price.  I thought is was interesting
that the writers left it up to the viewers to come that conclusion.  There was
mention or flashback to that part of The Price.  I always felt that the TPTB
often trusted their audience to be smart enough to pick up on the references
to past episodes without obvious referencing.

CherylA.
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End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #209
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