From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #195 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, July 16 2002 Volume 02 : Number 195 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Xena and Gabrielle Touching [Gabsfan@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] [chakram-refugees] News on some Xena memorabilia ["Kym Masera Taborn" > ["Ann Reddecliffe" > ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] Xena touching Gabrielle [Lilli Sprintz > [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 01:06:38 EDT From: Gabsfan@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Gabrielle Touching In a message to me dated 7/14/02 6:48:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BElannafan writes: > In a message dated 7/14/02 3:05:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Gabsfan@aol.com > writes: > > << we could take a couple of eps each, count the X & G touches and get a > volunteer to compile a list? Wha'd'ya think? >> > > Which two do I get?! I'll go ahead and claim "Sins of the Past" & > "Chariots of War" if no one else has. > Actually, the idea was Xwpacolyte's, not mine. But, I'll take Dreamworker and Cradle of Hope, if we're going to do this. I just have to find the right tape. If we are going to do this, I'd volunteer to keep the list. Just post your findings on the list or email me. So far we've got: Sins of the Past - BElannafan Chariots of War - BElannafan Dreamworker - Gabsfan Cradle of Hope - Gabsfan Death in Chains - IfeRae - Gab leans on Xena and Xena puts arm around Gab - 1 touch each Any other volunteers? Gabsfan Gabsfan@aol.com "I'll rise, but I refuse to shine." Gabrielle - X:WP "Been There, Done That" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:05:31 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 15 July 2002 07:44, Cheryl Ande wrote: > # > # > # > # > # > ## > > > > Xena invents a new sport - Olympic rat tossing - must be done in the prone > position with hands behind the back and contestants can only use their > teeth. > > Anyway I'm very fond of this episode with all it's flaws. It is basically > a prison film with sadistic guards, bullying prisoners, innocent young > thing, and wrongly convicted hero but I like what they do with the > stereotypes. I just don't like prison movies, I'm afraid. Only scene I found effective was Xena burying the dead girl in the rain. I *did* hope Xena was going to help all the prisoners escape - which I guess is entirely illogical since they're presumably all guilty of bad things, but I instinctively side with the underdog and besides, those jailers were rather ugly and sadistic. > > Also one more note - obviously some one is getting tired of the BGSB. > Gabby has a very nice healers outfit. On seeing it again it is amusing to > see it is almost an exact duplicate of the one worn by the former prison > healer that Gabby meets in the tavern. I wonder if that was the standard > uniform for healers. Anyway I liked enough that I wish she had adopted > that instead of the sari that appears latter on. > > FIN foreshadow: When Xena is arrested she gives her chakram over to Gabby > and when Gabby come to Xena's rescue the chakram is given back. In FIN of > course Gabby inherits the charkram and it cannot be return because Xena > refuses to be rescued. > > CherylA Well of course, the theme of Xena wanting to atone for her past wrongdoing does echo that in FIN. But unlike FIN where I could see the point of it (and I'm not looking to start that debate again!), in LUATD I really couldn't see the point. Xena goes to jail for life? What good does that do for anybody? Won't bring her victim back to life. Won't save any more villagers from roaming warlords. I just could not see Xena doing that at that stage of her career. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:47:40 -0700 From: "Kym Masera Taborn" Subject: [chakram-refugees] News on some Xena memorabilia I got this e-mail from an old crew-member of Xena. They have stuff that they want to get rid of: crew jackets, sweatshirts, caps, swords, daggers, etc. I have included their e-mail. Contact them directly and make an offer! Feel free to pass this info on. It's a great opportunity to get some of this stuff and not have to compete on eBay or pay Creation prices for it. Kym === - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jude" To: Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 8:28 PM Subject: Hi I've been tidying out cupboards today and think it is time for us to get rid of our hercules/Xena crew memorabilia. My partner worked on both series for 6 years constructing forests and backgrounds and teaching Lucy Tai Chi on set, and has been saving up crew jackets, sweatshits and caps. Is anyone out there interested in buying them off us. We live in Auckland but can send you photos. Thanks Jude ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:03:29 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Gabrielle Touching In a message dated 7/15/02 12:07:16 AM Central Daylight Time, Gabsfan@aol.com writes: << Death in Chains - IfeRae - Gab leans on Xena and Xena puts arm around Gab - - 1 touch each >> Now, remember I said Xena *might* have put *an* arm around Gabrielle, as about all you can see is her shoulder kind of twitch when Gab leans into her, which could have been a prelude to movement of an arm. There's never a full shot that actually shows Xena's arms. The camera focuses on their faces. So, there'll be those who might say that Xena merely flinched, while others might argue that even early Xena wouldn't have stood there with her arms at her side. Hmmm, but since Xena allowed Gabrielle's touch (well, at least didn't shrink away from it, since it was a bit of a surprise), I suppose that could qualify as mutual touching. Heh, this is as difficult as the body counting. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:34:58 +0100 From: "Ann Reddecliffe" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] <> >>Are there weak spots in the story - oh yeah. The story of young girl imprisoned with Xena seems to have gotten lost somewhere - I suspect there was suppose to be a subplot there. Also what exactly was the motivation for Gabrielle going to Shark Island - was she there just to keep Xena company, was she going to break her out against her will, or was just going to be ready to spring into action if Xena decided she didn't like prison life. Then there is Gabrielle's relationship with Thalassa - there is a lovely scene between the two them with Gabby being her most sympathetic and while I could see Thalassa liking her it just didn't seem to have been enough for the warden to be ready to think that Gabby might have changed her life.>> The time factor seems to be the problem. I could never work out exactly how long Gabrielle was in the prison before she started her rescue attempt. There seems to be some references, IIRC, to the last few days. It almost seems like she must have been at the prison about a week to get to know Thalassa as well as she did and to have the effect on her that she did. Just arriving off the boat and having one meaningful conversation just doesn't cut it IMO. What was even more interesting was the UK TV's attempts to edit this episode. UK TV really does not like showing hangings. Almost every shot where someone was hanging or even when Gabrielle had the noose round her neck were cut. It really reduced the tension of the scene where Gabrielle was about to be hung and Thalassa just couldn't bring herself to do it. There was a definite sense of "what just happened there?". It didn't help that we hadn't seen the hanging of the prisoner that Xena was burying either - although she was hanging around in the background a few times! Ann ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:57:40 EDT From: Gabsfan@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Gabrielle Touching In a message dated 7/15/02 3:09:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, IfeRae@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 7/15/02 12:07:16 AM Central Daylight Time, > Gabsfan@aol.com > writes: > > << Death in Chains - IfeRae - Gab leans on Xena and Xena puts arm around > Gab > - 1 touch each >> > > Now, remember I said Xena *might* have put *an* arm around Gabrielle, as > about all you can see is her shoulder kind of twitch when Gab leans into > her, > which could have been a prelude to movement of an arm. Hmmm, I guess I interpreted that shoulder movement as her arm going around Gab. I figured it was Xena's awkward attempt at trying to comfort Gab. Xena was caught off guard by Gab and she thought, "What do I do? What do I do? I've got to do something," and so she awkwardly, gingerly, puts her arm around Gab. If I'm off base on this, I can change that to: Death in Chains - IfeRae - Gab leans on Xena and Xena possibly puts arm around Gab - 1 touch by Gab, 1 possible touch by Xena Debbie Gabsfan@aol.com "I'll rise, but I refuse to shine." Gabrielle - X:WP "Been There, Done That" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:25:33 EDT From: Gabsfan@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Gabrielle Touching In a message to me dated 7/15/02 3:44:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hjjh@mail.utexas.edu writes: > What seasons are we to cover? If the 2nd year, I could do 2 of my top > faves (2.11 and 2.21, I think) "...Miss Amphipolis" and "The Mariner". Good question TEXena. Sharon said the early seasons. Would that be 1 & 2 or 1, 2 & 3? IMO, it would be 1 & 2. What do you guys think? OK, now we have: SEASON ONE 1. Sins of the Past - BElannafan 2. Chariots of War - BElannafan 3. Dreamworker - Gabsfan 4. Cradle of Hope - Gabsfan 9. Death in Chains - IfeRae - Gab leans on Xena and Xena possibly puts arm around Gab - 1 touch by Gab and 1 possible touch by Xena SEASON TWO 11. Here She Comes, Miss Amphipolis - TEXena 21. The Lost Mariner - TEXena Season two brings Remember Nothing (one of my favorites). Should the touches count during the alternate timeline bits? IMO, I can see only counting Xena touching Gab since she is thinking of Gab as the way she is in the real timeline and will remember the alternate timeline once she goes back to the regular timeline. But the Gab of the alternate timeline is not aware of the Xena in the regular timeline and what happens in the alternate timeline will not affect Gab in the regular timeline. Clear as mud, right? Whew! I think I'm getting a headache. Gabsfan Gabsfan@aol.com "I'll rise, but I refuse to shine." Gabrielle - X:WP "Been There, Done That" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:41:58 EDT From: MelosaQu@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Gabrielle Touching :::Hello All!::: I was watching Altared States last night and one of my favorite "touching" scenes was when G and X were thrown down the well and X told G to climb up her body. Talk about touching!!! I LOVE that scene! Especially when G asks X, "Did I hurt you?" and X replies with, "No, no....loving every moment of it." Renee is so wonderfully funny in this episode....stoned out on nutbread....I had forgotten how animated she can be. She just cracks me up in this episode....even more so now that I have seen how much Gabrielle has changed over the years. And Karl Urban looks so young in this ep. It is hard to believe he later plays Caesar, Julius Caesar. And just a side note regarding the thread of accents....Kiwi, American, Canadian, etc. IMO, no one can say "about" ("aboot") better than a Canadian! ::::wink, wink:::: Hi XT! :::waves::: Just my thoughts...... ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:17:41 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> # # # # # # This is the first episode of the 4th season to really start to deal with Xena's vision and Gabrielle's search for a new spiritual path. It is really a very interesting episode not so much for the plot itself - Xena and Gabby met a fanatic but for some of the subtleness in the performances and the writing. First off I think the audience often has some misconceptions about this episode. It is often thought that is an episode where Gabby is naive and just follows her first guru off without thinking. In actually it is Xena who is guilty of bad judgment. When Xena and Gabrielle first meet Najara it is true that Gabrielle is drawn to her. There is no reason not to like the woman she is much like Xena - a warrior who fights for good but seemingly without the angst. To be frank however Gabrielle seems to see Najara as nothing more than a friend - someone whom she can talk to about her fears and insecurities. Indeed Najara is sympathetic and even encourages Gabrielle to make a greater commitment to Xena. It is Xena however who has the greater doubts about her relationship with Gabrielle. Haunted by her vision she seems to be beset by insecurity. When Najara and Gabrielle go off to see the swans it is Xena who sneaks off and eavesdrops on their private conversation. Xena I think misconstrues what she hears I believe she takes Gabrielle's discomfort about the violence around her as a some kind of rejection of her. Certainly Xena is devastated by what she hears (just look at the pain on Lucy's face). Xena has already confided in Najara about her vision and now she has resolved to leave Gabrielle. She confesses to Najara that she has hurt Gabrielle in the past and a stunningly presumptuous move simply hands Gabrielle's future over to a woman she hardly knows. Then she misleads Gabrielle and rides off never to see Gabrielle again. It will of course become apparent rather rapidly that Xena has made a major error in judgment. The audience however becomes aware of a subtle change in Najara before Xena discovers the truth. At the recently freed village Najara seems more sinister as she talks to the captured slavers about conversion to the light. Then she announces much to Gabrielle's delight that she will start her hospice now but notice how Najara emphasis's the pronoun I as she announces her plan - "Tell the people I will open a hospice. Tell them to come to ME" . Here is ego talking and not altruism. Gabrielle however is impressed by the hospice that she wants to be part of the Light. There is however no indication that this means she is leaving Xena. In fact when Xena returns she is thrilled to see her. Xena by now has learned some bitter truths. Najara has been executing captives and she doesn't seem to particular about whether they are innocent or not. When Xena arrives back at Najara's village to confront her with the truth, Najara demonstrates the awful innocence of a true fanatic. For her there are no shades of gray - everyone is either good (on her side) or bad (against her). belief in the Light is so absolute that even murder of an innocent is no crime because she has just freed their souls to embrace the light. She is childlike in her faith - very deadly child. Gabrielle is appalled by what she hears (ROC does a wonderful job in this scene first you see the "oh Shit" look when Najara confesses the murder's then the embarrassed confusion when Najara says Xena has always hurt Gabrielle - I'm sure she is about tell Xena that she never said that). Of course when Gabrielle tries to leave Najara won't let her - a child is jealous of her possessions. In the great fight that follows Xena gets " her butt whipped". Oddly enough it is Gabrielle who saves the day. Gabrielle expertly plays Najara - she plays upon Najara's sympathy saying she fears Xena's darkside and then she pulls her trump card she says she can't live with anyone who kills Xena - not follow or be friends with but live with - there is a proposition in there that Najara can't refuse and Xena lives. I don't have a doubt in my mind that Gabrielle knew exactly what she was doing. She knew Xena would come after her. Gabrielle has no sympathy for Najara indeed she will cheerfully betray her soon enough. Xena indeed recovers from the beating and she in a bad mood - she lost her friend and a good chewing tooth. In a wonderful scene in the bar a very feral Xena discusses her predicament a very solemn child. Xena now goes after Najara. She disables Najara's army and meets up with Gabrielle. Gabrielle is all for hot-footing it out of there but Xena has a score to settle and she is going to use Najara's greatest weakness against her. Pretending to threaten Gabrielle with death and hurling one insult after another at her friend Xena goads a distracted Najara into fight which Xena wins by tossing Najara over a cliff and is about finish her off when she is brought to heel by Gabrielle. Indeed Gabrielle's warning sound very much like a trainer calling back a vicious animal which Xena is at this moment. The final scene is wonderful. We have a captured Najara still exhibiting a placid confidence. She blithely forgives Gabrielle and when Xena fearfully asks her if she told Gabby about the vision Najara takes the opportunity to sweetly stick the knife in Xena's ribs again by saying "Oh no that would hurt Gabrielle and That's your job." Kathryn Morris did an outstanding job as Najara. She was subtle enough in the beginning to make her rather likable and then when her villainous character was expose she didn't go over the top. Indeed her explanation of her murderous is oh so reasonable and so matter of fact that it is chilling. Even in the end keep that wonderful clarity of purpose of a true fanatic. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:20:48 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena touching Gabrielle >KLOSSNER said, in response to my comment, > >I believe some of the "touching" in the first two years was also /the slap-schtick stuff which some people (rightly) thought was kind of >abusive > He said, >"Hey, be nice. Xena was an adult in charge of a teenager." > OK. OK. Yes. I laughed when I read your comment, because of course, it was played for laughs, and I too laughed. I wasn't really used to two women doing that kind of slap-stick. For real. When I realized it was two women doing it for laughs, like I used to watch the three stooges, it was easier to take. But initially it did hurt watching it. Like, we get used to seeing men get beaten up in movies, etc, and learn not to flinch, as if they don't feel it. But women, I know we feel it, and react. Like I told a friend several years ago after watching the last Karate Kid. All the previous ones had boy heroes, and I didn't flinch that they got beat on. But when the girl hero in the last movie got beat on, I did feel it. It changed my attitudes about watching men get beat up, after that. Do you get what I mean? I actually can't watch the three stooges any more, because i can't always accept it as humor. But what the h**l, I did laugh when Joxer got nose-pulled by Gabrielle. So you see, it gets kind of confusing. Anyway, And XWPacolyet said, > >Say, I wonder if there are enough of us on this list that we could take a >couple of eps each, count the X & G touches and get a volunteer to compile a list? Wha'd'ya think? > Yes. Great idea. Ife's already done Death in Chains. I'll do A Solstice Carol. (season 2) L ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:42:25 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Gabrielle Touching In a message dated 7/15/2002 5:58:25 PM Central Daylight Time, Gabsfan@aol.com writes: > > << Death in Chains - IfeRae - Gab leans on Xena and Xena puts arm around > > Gab > > - 1 touch each >> > > > > Now, remember I said Xena *might* have put *an* arm around Gabrielle, as > > about all you can see is her shoulder kind of twitch when Gab leans into > > her, > > which could have been a prelude to movement of an arm. > > Hmmm, I guess I interpreted that shoulder movement as her arm going around > Gab. I figured it was Xena's awkward attempt at trying to comfort Gab. > Xena > was caught off guard by Gab and she thought, "What do I do? What do I do? > I've got to do something," and so she awkwardly, gingerly, puts her arm > around Gab. > > If I'm off base on this, I can change that to: > Death in Chains - IfeRae - Gab leans on Xena and Xena possibly puts arm > around Gab - 1 touch by Gab, 1 possible touch by Xena > Works for me. BTW, don't know if anybody signed up for Beware of Greeks, but I took a look at it tonight. Just as with Death, there were moments when X&G might have touched, but it was out of camera range. Now I'm wondering if we didn't see more touching in the beginning because TPTB simply didn't focus on it, or because they intentionally kept it at a minimum. Anyway, here's my report, just in case. I'll use PT for "possible touch." Heh. 1. X&G are kneeling outside Troy. G pats X's hand. PT when X appears to pat the air near G. Another PT when their knees may brush. Some bushes kind of obscure these PT's. 2. X grabs G's arm as they race toward the gates, then briefly does it again a few moments later. 3. After X tells G not to worry about Perdy, X puts her hand on G's back as they descend some stairs. X then briefly takes G's hand in goodbye as she goes off to spy or something. 4. After they spring out of the Trojan horse, G touches X's arm as X goes off to find Helen. Mind you, they get close enough several times for PT's. It's only in retrospect that I'm thinking how weird it seems that they'd stand so close and not do more than that, like in the later seasons. It's downright frustrating. Fascinating. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:42:26 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 7/15/2002 7:14:24 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: @ @ @ @ @ @ > First off I think the audience often has some misconceptions about this > episode. It is often thought that is an episode where Gabby is naive and > just > follows her first guru off without thinking. In actually it is Xena who is > guilty of bad judgment. > > When Xena and Gabrielle first meet Najara it is true that Gabrielle is > drawn > to her. There is no reason not to like the woman she is much like Xena - a > warrior who fights for good but seemingly without the angst. To be frank > however Gabrielle seems to see Najara as nothing more than a friend - > someone > whom she can talk to about her fears and insecurities. Indeed Najara is > sympathetic and even encourages Gabrielle to make a greater commitment to > Xena. > > It is Xena however who has the greater doubts about her relationship with > Gabrielle. I agree with what you say about Xena. However, I do believe that G looks at N thru rose-colored glasses. I think G also sees herself in N -- a warrior of the heart. Indeed, N seems to have G's appreciation for spirit and beauty, with X's love and skill for battle. On the outside, she's in buttery soft pastel leathers, but is the spitting, growling image of Xena when the two fight side by side in that barn. True, G didn't seem to have any intention of leaving with N, but I don't know if either she or X would've realized N was "too good to be true" if not for Marat. Such a perfectly poignant way to show how hungry X&G were in their own ways for healing their souls and alleviating the fears each had in being with the other. I love that Crusader does that without bringing in supernatural stuff. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #195 **************************************