From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #194 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, July 15 2002 Volume 02 : Number 194 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Xena touching Gabrielle [Lilli Sprintz > ["Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena touching Gabrielle Sharon said, "Looking back over the early part of the series, I seem to feel that Xena was always touching Gabrielle -- on her hair, her cheek, her shoulder. And that Gabrielle never, or hardly ever, touched Xena. Am I misremembering or has anyone else noticed the same thing?" Oh, this is much better than continuing the body count. Hmmmmmmm. Hawk noted: "In the beginning of the series it was always Gabrielle touching Xena, breaking down the physical barriers between them. As the warrior warmed to the bard then she started do the same but not as much, I think." What I remember without going through some of the early tapes is that Xena seemed to do some comforting of Gabrielle in times of stress, such as when Talus(splg?) died in Death in Chains. But she didn't expect right away to have to do that. There was actually a look in Xena's eyes like she was asking, "what does she want ME to do about this?"...like hold her, she's a friend in need. And Xena DID. Later years, as when what's his name, the Greek in the Roman army in A Good Day, died at the end, Xena was holding Gabrielle as a way of helping her deal with the real loss of life/friends that happens in battle. That's the side of her that seemed to be saying, "I didn't get to have this [support when I started dealing with death], but you do." By that time in their relationship, Xena was already doing that alot. But as Hawk said, Gabrielle also pushed the limits. Perhaps she WAS the one who started it. She used to sort of come around from the back and on Xena's side, sit next to her, just talk with her, when Xena didn't know how to take that kind of affection in yet. Later her affection might have been more touching; perhaps touching her shoulder. As someone posted several months ago, it's like Xena knew about PASSION (as in love/sex/romance), but not the loving kindness thing that Gabrielle was offering. Remember the famous scene in , when Gabrielle came around and got Xena to talk about Cirra? Same sort of thing. Afterwards, I believe Gabrielle gently pushed Xena's hair to the side and touched her face, and came around behind Xena protectively, maybe with arm around shoulder; but it was early on, and still hard for Xena to take it in. Nice acting about those issues. I don't recall completely, perhaps Gabrielle's first PHYSICAL comfort of Xena was after she came out of the lake after losing Marcus in Mortal Beloved. You still might be right that Xena might have eventually done more of the touching: what comes to mind is watching Gabrielle touch Xena's hair from behind when she was asleep in One Against An Army, or when she thought Xena was dead in Greater Good, as if she couldn't do that when Xena was awake/alive. And Gabrielle used to lean on Xena's shoulder, like she did in The Quest, A Family Affair, and at the end in FIN. Actually Sharon, I believe some of the "touching" in the first two years was also the slap-schtick stuff which some people (rightly) thought was kind of abusive: Xena would pull Gabrielle's hair to pull her back (Altared States); even pulled on Gabrielle's green "bra" in A Day in the Life. Fun doing Xena trivia. Hope my memory's working today : ) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:46:51 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Gabrielle touching on 7/14 Gabsfan wrote to me: "In a message dated 7/14/02 Lilli wrote: > What I remember without going through some of the early tapes is that > Xena seemed to do some comforting of Gabrielle in times of stress, > such as when Talus(splg?) died in Death in Chains. But she didn't > expect right away to have to do that. " Gabsfan then said, "Actually, even in that scene, it seemed to me that Gabrielle initiated that comforting by burying her face in Xena's shoulder. It was then that Xena had a moment of surprise and uncertainly before she put her arms around Gab to comfort her." Yes, Yes Yes. I just wasn't able to write that sentence in last night, just too much to do. But I'm glad you said it. So we are agreeing that Gabrielle initiated the physical closeness. Gabsfan also said, "In the earliest eps, I think it was Gabrielle that did the little touches until Xena began to warm up to the idea of loving comfort. " So perhaps that actually did give Xena the ability to later do the same. It was all so very sweet. That's why I said that the acting was so good, that it really looked like what the actors were trying to show. These two characters were exploring what it meant for one person to be very closed, not used to caring and comfort. And though Xena might have been initially, in my mind, the "powerhouse" of the two, it took alot of power and caring and courage on Gabrielle's part to initiate that kind of caring toward Xena, which allowed Xena to open up. Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:44:16 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> # # # # # ## Xena invents a new sport - Olympic rat tossing - must be done in the prone position with hands behind the back and contestants can only use their teeth. Anyway I'm very fond of this episode with all it's flaws. It is basically a prison film with sadistic guards, bullying prisoners, innocent young thing, and wrongly convicted hero but I like what they do with the stereotypes. Of course the quick plot points are that Xena is arrested for killing a young woman during her evil days. Gabby does her best to defend a depressed Xena but she is convicted and sent to a sadistically run prison. Low and behold the scared prison warden is the allege murder victim, Gabrielle arrives and is put in mortal danger, and Xena saves the day - she not only saves Gabrielle but the soul of the prison warden Thalassa. What I like about the episode is that Xena and Gabrielle like the characters we have grown to love. Xena is once again the melancholy warrior trying to pay for her past. Xena accepts imprisonment because she accepts responsibility for her crimes and will never demean her victims by accepting the defense that she is such a good person now her crimes don't count. She accepts prison, does her best to obey the guards but when injustice rears its ugly head she jumps into the fry - burying an executed prisoner (a beautifully shot scene in the rain with eerie music), defending a young girl, and helping a weak prisoner. Gabrielle is also the quintessential Gabby - defending her friend with zeal, following Xena to the prison, being sympathetic to the bitter warden, and finally getting herself in enough trouble that Xena finally has to take action to save her. Are there weak spots in the story - oh yeah. The story of young girl imprisoned with Xena seems to have gotten lost somewhere - I suspect there was suppose to be a subplot there. Also what exactly was the motivation for Gabrielle going to Shark Island - was she there just to keep Xena company, was she going to break her out against her will, or was just going to be ready to spring into action if Xena decided she didn't like prison life. Then there is Gabrielle's relationship with Thalassa - there is a lovely scene between the two them with Gabby being her most sympathetic and while I could see Thalassa liking her it just didn't seem to have been enough for the warden to be ready to think that Gabby might have changed her life. There were other things I really liked. I thought the farewell between Xena and Gabrielle touching. You really see the contrast between the two in the way they see Xena's past. For Gabby the past is over and Xena's a different person and has been redeemed. For Xena the past is never over and her redemption is unimportant - it's only justice for her victims which count. The truly nice thing in this episode is for once Xena does save a former victim - not only her life but also her soul. Thalassa is redeemed - seeing that Xena has changed she herself has the courage to move beyond her past and in a nicely ironic pep talk she urges Xena to do the same. Also one more note - obviously some one is getting tired of the BGSB. Gabby has a very nice healers outfit. On seeing it again it is amusing to see it is almost an exact duplicate of the one worn by the former prison healer that Gabby meets in the tavern. I wonder if that was the standard uniform for healers. Anyway I liked enough that I wish she had adopted that instead of the sari that appears latter on. FIN foreshadow: When Xena is arrested she gives her chakram over to Gabby and when Gabby come to Xena's rescue the chakram is given back. In FIN of course Gabby inherits the charkram and it cannot be return because Xena refuses to be rescued. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:51:28 -0400 From: "bookdaft" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] ALL things N.Z. --Being Eve Oh, I realize there are differences. I had a private comment on how Americans from Michigan (I live in Michigan, by the way, but in the Lower Peninsula) sounded different; much more like Canadians from Alberta. I attribute that to some of the nationalities who settled in the Upper Peninsula: specifically Finns and the Cornish. There are sometimes vast differences between Americans. One of my co-workers once teased me about the proper way to say 'fog'. I learned to say it as 'fahg', she says 'fawg'. And she was born in Ohio, which directly south of Michigan. My point was that the variations in speech and dialects are more narrow between Americans and Canadians then they are between Americans and Canadians as compared to the Kiwis. Given that Canadians probably travel more to Australia and New Zealand than Americans, the assumption first would be that I was Canadian. bd - -----Original Message----- From: owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org [mailto:owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Xena Torres Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 11:44 AM To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] ALL things N.Z. --Being Eve >(and to me; accents are often identical, except for some areas in both >countries.) This may also be another reason they had no trouble >understanding me. Actually, the standard American and Canadian accents DO differ. Not a lot, but there are many words that we say differently. I know this because when us Canadians tease the heck out of an American friend of mine when it's just her and three of us. ;) (it's a running gag with us and is all in good fun). But words like room, stamp, pasta, etc. There IS a difference, though it's very slight. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:05:52 +0100 From: Sojourner Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] ALL things N.Z. --Being Eve At 15:51 14/07/2002 -0400, bookdaft wrote: >Oh, I realize there are differences. I had a private comment on how >Americans from Michigan (I live in Michigan, by the way, but in the Lower >Peninsula) sounded different; much more like Canadians from Alberta. I >attribute that to some of the nationalities who settled in the Upper >Peninsula: specifically Finns and the Cornish. > >There are sometimes vast differences between Americans. One of my >co-workers once teased me about the proper way to say 'fog'. I learned to >say it as 'fahg', she says 'fawg'. And she was born in Ohio, which directly >south of Michigan. > >My point was that the variations in speech and dialects are more narrow >between Americans and Canadians then they are between Americans and >Canadians as compared to the Kiwis. Given that Canadians probably travel >more to Australia and New Zealand than Americans, the assumption first would >be that I was Canadian. > >bd We have little idea about differences about american vs canadian accents.... and frankly care little too. Though I think we empathise with the US-Canada relationship because it is like Australia-NZ .... so we MAY be polite and suggest canadian first, but be thinking yankee... And the figures would be heavily more americans than canadians visit NZ. Sojourner (sojourning in the UK not the US) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:27:40 -0400 From: "bookdaft" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] ALL things N.Z. --Being Eve Sojourner wrote: <<>> I am corrected. Not that I looked anything up to confirm or deny my hunch. It was simply an supposition drawn from my personal experience while I was there. bd ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:01:39 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena touching Gabrielle /Actually Sharon, I believe some of the "touching" in the first two years was also /the slap-schtick stuff which some people (rightly) thought was kind of abusive: /Xena would pull Gabrielle's hair to pull her back (Altared States); even pulled on /Gabrielle's green "bra" in A Day in the Life. Hey, be nice. Xena was an adult in charge of a teenager. And she was a rough-tough warrior. Of course when Gabrielle was running around getting into trouble she'd yank her back. And it was always played for laughs. Xena would yank Gabrielle's hair; Gabrielle would give her big, self-deprecating, Salmoneus-style "Don't hurt me, I'm just a funny little person" grin. On the subject of Gabrielle abuse, I saw a preview for Shiri Appleby (Tara) in Swimfan the other day. She's listed third in the cast. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:07:14 EDT From: Xwpacolyte@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena touching Gabrielle In a message dated 7/13/02 11:20:23 PM Central Daylight Time, "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" writes: << Looking back over the early part of the series, I seem to feel that Xena was always touching Gabrielle -- on her hair, her cheek, her shoulder. And that Gabrielle never, or hardly ever, touched Xena. Am I misremembering or has anyone else noticed the same thing? Can anyone remember times in the series where Xena touched Gabrielle that way? I'd love to compile a list and perhaps use it in Coffee Talk. >> Ooooh... now there's a project I could really get into. I'd much rather count touches than kills, and it should be a much easier task too. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to watch all the eps again. Say, I wonder if there are enough of us on this list that we could take a couple of eps each, count the X & G touches and get a volunteer to compile a list? Wha'd'ya think? XWPacolyte Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:48:15 EDT From: Gabsfan@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena touching Gabrielle In a message dated 7/14/02 1:44:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, spri0037@tc.umn.edu writes: > What I remember without going through some of the early tapes is that Xena > seemed to do some comforting of Gabrielle in times of stress, such as when > Talus(splg?) died in Death in Chains. But she didn't expect right away to > have to do that. Actually, even in that scene, it seemed to me that Gabrielle initiated that comforting by burying her face in Xena's shoulder. It was then that Xena had a moment of surprise and uncertainly before she put her arms around Gab to comfort her. In the earliest eps, I think it was Gabrielle that did the little touches until Xena began to warm up to the idea of loving comfort. One Xena touch I remember is at the end of Remember Nothing (one of my favorite eps) when Xena puts her arm around Gab's waist to pull her closer and Gab says "What's this for?" seeming surprised at Xena's little hug. Gabsfan@aol.com "I'll rise, but I refuse to shine." Gabrielle - X:WP "Been There, Done That" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:04:15 EDT From: Gabsfan@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena touching Gabrielle In a message dated 7/14/02 5:07:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Xwpacolyte@aol.com writes: > Say, I wonder if there are enough of us on this list that we could take a > couple of eps each, count the X & G touches and get a volunteer to compile > a > list? Wha'd'ya think? Oh my! Watching eps, counting the X&G touches and making a list. What a difficult, agonizing assignment that would be. ;-) It would be a tough job but I think I'd be up for the challenge. :-) Gabsfan Gabsfan@aol.com "I'll rise, but I refuse to shine." Gabrielle - X:WP "Been There, Done That" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 00:08:16 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena touching Gabrielle In a message dated 7/14/2002 4:07:43 PM Central Daylight Time, Xwpacolyte@aol.com writes: > Say, I wonder if there are enough of us on this list that we could take a > couple of eps each, count the X & G touches and get a volunteer to compile a > > list? Wha'd'ya think? > Heh. I just scrutinized Death in Chains because of this thread. The only touching is in the end, when Gabrielle leans on Xena for solace as Tallus is led off by Celesta. It appears that Xena may put her arm around Gabrielle, but it's hard to tell because you can only see the upper part of their bodies. I'd forgotten how often the two were apart in season 1 -- even in different places -- usually because Xena went off to take care of things on her own. Not too easy to touch under those circumstances. OK, so I've done my part. Next? - --Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #194 **************************************