From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #187 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, July 8 2002 Volume 02 : Number 187 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Unproduced X:WP Script Online [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN Poll Results (Long) [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: What does she see in her? ["Cheryl Ande" > ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Gab's bardometer score ["Cheryl Ande" he way Missy put it, the story was about "Xena confronting her mortality > and the consequences of her past." Surely, a different framing device than > Xena's past abuses could have been used to face her mortality, but that was > what was used. So this is what I find intriguing - Rob knew what was in > both Fallen and FIN, and yet he felt so strongly about Fallen that he > committed resources to it and defended it in story meetings, with the > eventual result of having to be persuaded from doing it. > > To me, this makes Fallen a most interesting artifact. I'll likely never > know the thinking behind the story, but pondering it can be an entertaining, > if useless pastime. > Yes, this certainly makes the discussion more entertaining for me. My problem with Fallen was it seemed kinda retro, in that it was returning to themes that Tapert seemed to have gone to great lengths to get beyond -- far more interestingly to me in such eps as Ides, Chakram or The Way. Heck, the 25 year leap made it very difficult for me to find any energy in some personal vendetta against Xena. Indeed, I ceased to think of Xena as being motivated primarily by the past, but by a newfound respect for what she could *on its own merits* in the present and future, whether as a result of her evils or someone else's. I didn't mind revisiting past atrocities with the Amazons, the Norse trilogy, the Centaurs or FIN, maybe because they involved whole communities/civilizations. Sure, a single person can want or deserve justice just as much as an entire village. I simply felt that had been done before, and that the larger issues in the eps mentioned offered more new possibilities. To me -- despite the unbelievability of some aspects -- FIN was much more epic, more focused on the greater good and a higher level of self-actualizion/altruism for Xena than what I saw in Fallen. FIN did not feel "old hat" to me, as Fallen did. The latter seems more like Rob's nostalgia for dark Xena and her angst, just as many fans craved pieces of early XWP. Frankly, I'm glad Tapert's staff won out, as I didn't need a bridge like Fallen. FIN seemed to me a good full circle closure that rose above the past rather than becoming mired in it. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:43:22 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" On Sunday 07 July 2002 15:49, Xwpacolyte@aol.com wrote: > > Let's see, first time I saw Xena she was seducing Iolaus. Then she had a > go with Herc. And judging by the intensity of the liplock, I'd guess Xena > and Marcus had been on intimate terms. She was engaged to Patrocles, so I > believe one could reasonably assume that she slept with him. Ulysses? She > probably thought about it (they didn't kiss like they were just friends) > but I never could see why any woman, much less Xena, would be interested in > a fellow who one minute is totally focussed on returning to his beloved > homeland, and the next is ready to chuck his beloved homeland *and* his > beloved wife to run off with Xena!?! Anyway, onward. Borias! Now > *there* was a man! (Made old Useless seem even more... well, useless.) > Don't even have to speculate about Xena and Borias... those 2 were all over > each other... on the horse, in the hut... Ok, enough of that. Rafe? > Don't think that went too far, but I believe there was a kiss. Who else? > Oh, yeah, Caesar--the seducer and betrayer. And then there was Mark > Antony--where Xena was the seducer and betrayer. Oh, and I can't leave out > Ares. I don't think Xena and Ares ever actually hooked up, but it wasn't > for lack of trying on Ares' part and there was plenty of erotic innuendo. > Have I left anybody out? Now there's a good question. Xena was kind of omnivorous, I think. The repulsive Darphus certainly seemed to be very jealous of Iolaus in The Warrior Princess. And I think there was maybe a hint that Xena kept some of the leading lights in her army nicely under control by - umm, bestowing favours on them from time to time. (She was certainly ready enough to do it with Iolaus just because it happened to be convenient for her plans). Don't forget Draco, he certainly seemed to have some sort of past history with Xena. Darius in Chariots of War is a distinct possibility. There's even a possible moment with Autolycus in Royal Couple of Thieves. Don't forget Odin!!! That's a guaranteed one from her past. OK, that's all the extras I can think of. There's also Lucifer, Gurkhan and Caligula that she was leading up the garden path, I don't think she had to make good on any of those but IMO she would have done it if it had been necessary. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:02:11 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN Poll Results (Long) On Sunday 07 July 2002 09:28, BElannafan@aol.com wrote: > OK here are the numbers that I got over the past week. The poll was sent to > these on-line lists or boards and votes were tallied from them: MaryD's; > Nutforum; Clububer; Merpups; Xenaguard; Chakram Refugees; Gabscrolls; > Hercxena; Whoosh; flawless; and pnwxenite lists. > To remind folks of the choices here they are: > 1. Hated FIN a lot (Wanted X & G to walk off into the sunset) > 2. Somewhat did not like FIN > 3. Didn't care one way or the other > 4. Somewhat liked FIN (but wished that Xena didn't die) > 5. Liked FIN a lot > > Here are the results: > Total Votes = 168 > 1. Hated FIN... 87 votes - 51.8% > 2. Somewhat did not... 4 votes - 2.4% > 3. Didn't care... 2 votes - 1.2% > 4. Somewhat liked, wish Xena... 28 votes - 16.7% > 5. Liked A Lot... 47 votes - 28.0% > Umm, just out of curiosity, have you got a breakdown of that by list? (I hasten to add, obviously you can't judge a whole list by the votes of a few members who happened to answer this poll, but I'm just curious to see how they compare.) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:06:56 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: What does she see in her? KT excellant post on Akemi. You put into words some of the things I thought about Akemi but couldn't put into words. Yes I thought Akemi got a bad rap from a lot of fans. Akemi is trying to put her family to rest. She obviously was smart enough to escape her father and get Xena to take her to Japa. Finally she accepted her servitude in Hodoshi's tea house with fortitude and grace. It is often forgotten that she must have been there for a good 36 years (counting the 10 years and the 25 X&G nap and the 1 year Gabnap) and never asked for help. Only when the peple of Hagochi are endangered that she summons Xena with no real assurance she would come. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 17:21:06 -0400 From: Cousin Liz Subject: [chakram-refugees] *** AUCTION ALERT *** Auction for Kevin Smith Trust Fund An auction to benefit the Kevin Smith Trust Fund is up on the Sword and Staff site at http://sword-and-staff.com/auction.htm All proceeds from this auction will go to the trust fund to benefit Kevin's wife and sons. There are 66 items up for bid, many of them autographed. Should be something there for just about every Xena fan. Additional items were donated, and they will be auctioned for the trust fund at a later date. If you'd like to bid, please send your bid to XWPAuction@aol.com Put the word AUCTION in the subject line. You will need to list the item number, item name, and your bid for each item. All bids are in US $. Winners will be notified by email at the conclusion of the auction. Any questions or problems, please let me know at MistNY@aol.com Best, Mist http://sword-and-staff.com - -- Cousin Liz eas01@fast.net Soulmates Xena Dinosaur Bards http://cousinliz.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:47:09 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> # # # # # ## Very good episode with a few flaws for me. First there are first rate production values, wonderful music (the burning of the village stands out), great battle scenes and spot on casting: Stephan Lovatt was very good as Phlanagus, Caitlain McDougall was very touching as his faithful wife and Caleb Ross brought a nice sense of youthful innocence to the expert archer who finds out for himself what war can to do to the soul. Carl Urban is once again subtly arrogant as Caesar and Jeremy Callaghan is still wonderfully smarmy (I just love the scene where he is still half flirting with Xena as she informs her she won't be coming to his coronation because she just "so unpredictable.") The main interest in this episode is how this piece plays in the development of Gabrielle's character. We are beginning to subtle shift in Xena and Gabrielle's relationship. Xena now sees Gabrielle as a full partner in her plans and has a lot of confidence in Gabrielle's abilities. When Xena is about to leave the Greek troops it is Gabrielle she wants in command. She knows that Gabrielle can see through Caesar's plans and she is certain that Gabrielle can adjust Xena's strategies for any surprises. It is Gabrielle, on the other hand, who is not ready to accept the new partnership. When Xena states her intention to leave Gabrielle in command Gabrielle says she can't lead men to their death. Surprisingly Xena doesn't argue or belittle that decision - she accepts it perhaps she believes that when the chips are down Gabrielle will step into the breach. Indeed when the Greeks are about to make a tactically error it is Gabrielle who steps up and leads the men into battle and successfully carries out Xena's plan. It is in this battle that Gabrielle gets another devastating blow to her soul. Phlanagus is attacked from the rear by a Roman and is about to be skewered when Gabby sees what is happening and grabs a spear, tosses at the Roman but misses. Phlanagus is killed and the Roman is killed by the innocent boy. Gabrielle by her failure has seen a good man die and innocence loss. At the funeral pyre for Phalanagus she berets herself for her failure and Xena gives her a not very effective pep talk ( I think Lucy did a fine job with this scene because I have the feeling even Xena knew that she could not make Gabby feel better but she just had to try). What has always sparked a lot of debate is why Gabby missed with the spear. It is purposely left ambiguous. ROC in an interview in Charkram, I believe, said a line was cut from the funeral scene where Gabby said to Xena that she now wished she had let Xena teach her how to throw a spear. By cutting the line the audience and Gabrielle are left to wonder whether this was a failure of skill or nerve. Certainly Gabrielle could have tried to throw the spear like her staff but being balanced differently could have gone off course. Then again at the last minute did Gabrielle have doubts about killing and subconsciously miss on purpose. It can be imagined that Gabby will brood on this and analysis this to death. Having said all that was good with the episode, I had some problems following the battle strategy. I did ok about the small hill and distracting both armies so the villagers could escape and the artillery could be captured. After that with Caesar's army retreating and Gabby taking command and having to keep fighting to keep Caesar's army on the hill it was just confusing to me. I can't even blame the script because I'm always confused about things like this. Finally I wasn't even sure in the final battle just who were Pompey's troops and Caesar's troops - perhaps I was suppose to be confused because certainly battles are very confusing to those in the thick of it. So maybe that was just effective film-making but I felt a bit lost. Anyway I really liked this episode - it had great acting and was an epic episode. One big blooper however - In the battle on the small hill there is great big close-up of a Roman soldier's elbow with a very modern Band-Aid on it. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:56:46 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Gab's bardometer score > /I think one needs to add When Fates Collide. I love the shot of the bored /out of their minds audience. The only one appearing to enjoy the show is> Once again I arise to defend Gabrielle's literary honor. In When Fates Collide she is a famous playwrite and her play appears to be very well recieved. Now Barnabus (aka Joxer), Alti, and Caesar din't like it but then again I'm pretty sure their tastes didn't run to romances. I still maintain Gabby must have been a good writer hence Xena's fame after 25 years and remember that the peddler selling Gabrielle's scroll in Lookin Death In The Eye seemed to believe he had something of value. I shall not be moved and will not be convinced otherwise - Gabrielle did have talent - so there ;-). CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:31:20 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Akemi & Orestes /If she were totally selfish, she wouldn't have killed herself after she /killed her father. She would have walked away. But that would have made /the killing of her father pure vengeance, rather than a sacred duty that /must be fulfilled. And then must be atoned for with a great sacrifice. If Akemi had been selfish, why would she have killed her father at all? Her father's crimes would have been no skin off her nose. Akemi's dilemma was rather like a classic theme in Greek mythology, shown in the Orestes story. When the Greeks went to besiege Troy, their commander Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia to the gods to get favorable winds. After ten years, Agamemnon won at Troy. He returned home, expecting that as the man who had (finally) defeated Troy, he would be the biggest man in Greece. Instead, as soon as he came home he was killed by his wife Clytemnestra and her lover Aegisthus. Clytemnestra had waited the ten years of the war for revenge for the death of Iphigenia. All the time he was commanding the Greeks at Troy, Agamemnon's death was waiting for him at home. The murder of Agamemnon was avenged when his son Orestes killed Clytemnenstra (his mother) and Aegisthus. That is where the story resembles Akemi's. Orestes was under an absolute obligation to avenge his father, but he could only do it by killing his mother, which was absolutely forbidden. Whatever he did would be wrong. After he killed his mother, he was shunned by everyone and went mad. His sister Electra joined him in killing the murderers of their father and was also shunned. Eugene O'Neill in the 1930s wrote a trilogy of plays collectively called Mourning Becomes Electra, setting the Orestes story in the U.S. That was the basis of one of the most erudite jokes in Bullwinkle cartoons. Bullwinkle inherited an English estate. He went there, in mourning clothes, and was about to press the doorbell, unaware it had been rigged by jealous heirs to electricute him. The announcer roared in a stentorian voice, "Be with us for our next thrilling episode -- Moose gets the juice, or Mourning Becomes Electra-cuted." There. I've drawn a line from Akemi to Bullwinkle. You can do anything with this stuff. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #187 **************************************