From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #186 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, July 7 2002 Volume 02 : Number 186 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle's bardometer score [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle's bardometer score [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: X, and G bickering [Lilli Sprintz ] [chakram-refugees] OT Boeotia ["Lee Daley" ] [chakram-refugees] FIN Poll Results (Long) [BElannafan@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Xena and Religion [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" [Xwpacolyte@aol.com] RE: [chakram-refugees] Unproduced X:WP Script Online ["bookdaft" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, and G bickering Lynn said, and KT responded in kind, >> Not *all* of them. I submit, for your consideration, A Day in >> the Life, In Sickness and in Hell, and If the Shoe Fits. >> > And the beginning of One Against an Army, the end of The Reckoning, The fire side scene in The Convert where an exasperted Xena snarls at Gabrielle, "Don't tell me you're BUYING this!"........ .......and to add some more, The Rheingold when they're fighting over who gets to eat gabrielle's food, and Xena accuses Gabrielle of playing with her food; Paradise Found (Xena doesn't want to stay, and Gabrielle wacks her butt as encouragement); the spat in , was it Kindred Spirits?, when it looked like they might break up; and the whole premise for Punchline, when they were ABOUT to get into a fight, and gabrielle bet xena she couldn't keep from getting angry for a whole day. They actually did a lot of bickering, which is what made it so refreshing. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:55:34 +1200 (NZST) From: sojourner@paradise.net.nz Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle's bardometer score Quoting KLOSSNER9@aol.com: > /I think one needs to add When Fates Collide. I love the shot of the > bored > /out of their minds audience. The only one appearing to enjoy the show > is > /Poodle Xena. And the only thing she's excited about is the concept of > the > /play. Not the dialogue or the structure or the characterizations. > > I think the boredom of the audience did not mean that the play was bad, > but that Caesar and his circle of powerful Romans were not interested > in > literature, least of all in idealistic visions of love. > > Boeotian Clearly academia does not concur with your interpretation. Quoting stuff from http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/SubIndex/latinauthors.html "Greek Literature, which dates from the early 5 th c. B.C. and continues in a traceable tradition to the end of the 4 th c. B.C. (after which it becomes what we call Hellenistic, with far greater output apparently based on decreasing talent), was known to the Romans as early as the 3 rd. c. B.C., when they began to read, translate and imitate the works of the established and famous Greek literary masters. Greek literature in every period is a dominating force for the Roman writers, the mark of Hellenic thought and myth is ever-present in the Roman mind, and in many ways it is suitable to speak of the "Greco-Roman experience" in literature and the arts, since the Romans fused everything they did with what the Greeks had done centuries before. The advantage of such a cultural fusion is the availability of ready-made notions and artistic forms, which can be changed, re-proportioned and developed at will. This offers a rich diet for the vigorous, for weaker minds it inspires slavish imitations, which the less gifted Romans were certainly capable of producing. The net result of generations of Romans, schooled in Greek thinking and writing in their formative years, is a gradual process of deferring to the Greeks, and ultimately denying their own cultural birthright. But this is something we cannot lament, since what a genuine and totally Roman art and literature would be like, cannot be known." WILLIAM HARRIS Prof. Em. Middlebury College Whether Gab-bard was one the the "established and famous Greek literary masters" or the "decreasing talent" is still open for speculation. Mooooooooore speculation. Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:31:02 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, and G bickering On Saturday 06 July 2002 16:29, Lilli Sprintz wrote: > .......and to add some more, The Rheingold when they're fighting over who > gets to eat gabrielle's food, and Xena accuses Gabrielle of playing with > her food; Paradise Found (Xena doesn't want to stay, and Gabrielle wacks > her butt as encouragement); the spat in , was it Kindred Spirits?, when it > looked like they might break up; and the whole premise for Punchline, when > they were ABOUT to get into a fight, and gabrielle bet xena she couldn't > keep from getting angry for a whole day. They actually did a lot of > bickering, which is what made it so refreshing. By the way, when I said I thought it was time to end the thread, I was just speaking for my contribution, I absolutely didn't wish to imply that anyone should stop discussing it if they wish. I don't want to make too much out of what was a passing comment of mine, I _did_ say 'bicker' and I agree, I've been given lots of examples of bickering. But what I was actually _thinking_ of, was Xena being furious with Akemi, she was hardly ever furious (IIRC) with Gabs that way. My fault for expressing myself too vaguely. Umm, now I better do what I said I would and shut up ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:51:30 -0400 From: "Lee Daley" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT Boeotia Was reading Philip Jose Farmers' "Gods of Riverworld" and came across the following: "...Kalamazoo was, like some other American placenames, Peoria, Podunk, and downtown Burbank, a risible word, a poke in the ribs and a snigger. Like the English Gotham of the later Middle Ages, the Greman Schildburg, the town of Chelm in Yiddish stories, the Boeotia of the Ancient Greeks. ..." Seems like both Xena's and Batman's creators knew nothing about this when picking place names (or the did and it was an inside joke). Got to go back to that nice padded room now. LeeD; Warrior Jester ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:23:15 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: Xena and Religion snipped some for bandwidth. Apologies for it still being so long, but again I'm answering an old one and can't assume that everyone remembers what Cheryl said. If any discussion ensues, please snip unmercifully. > Interestind discussion of limbo. I am not a Catholic and I have never > quite understood the concept of limbo but as I understand it now I'm > sure that's what was about to happen to the 40,000. Yes this is what I thought of immediately when I saw FIN. It was no stretch at all to understand that concept of having to be rescued through someone else's sacrifice. I mean, we little catholic kids were all told, "Christ died for YOUR sins". Made the whole suffering and crucifixion of Christ very personal. And truly enshrined the concept of horrific personal sacrifices in the name of the Greater Good right at the heart of the religion. But, after FIN aired, someone told me that someone wrote that there is a Japanese tradition of souls who were wrongfully murdered having to go to some form of limbo. But that there is apparently a time limit to this. It's purely a delay thing and nobody has to do anything to get you out of there. I haven't been able to find anything about that anywhere though. > > I always felt that behind the mythology of Xena was a stong Christian > and Catholic world view. The fact that we have Xena, a villian, > searching for redemtion is certainly harks back to Christian ideas but > as we get into the story line of Eve and Eli it does become stronger. Absolutely. Xena thinking she can redeem herself for her acts flies totally in the face of the Greek belief that your fate is predetermined and inescapable. That one has no free will. Of course in a system without free will, there is also no chance that anything you do is "good" or worthy either--you just literally do what the Fates weave for you to do. Free will is part of many religious systems however, and Christianity is one of these. Rob said very early on that the story of the fall of the Greek gods from their position of power, how it happened and what replaced them was something he wanted to explore. > In one of the last Spectrum magazines there was interesting article > about Eve conversion and the difference between Eve's redemption and > Xena's. Livia is saved by grace - her redemption is a gift unssked > for but joyously accepted. She is truly "born again" and becomes a > new person, Eve. As Eve she can distance herself from the actions of > Livia because for her Livia truly no longer exists. It's not that she > denies the evil Livia did or that she is now believes herself > guiltless, it's that she no longer she herself as that person. > > Xena's redemptive process is very different. Xena always carries the > burden of her sins. She never can accept that there is any outside > agency that can save her. For her, redemption is in her hands and > will achieved by her own action. She will be saved by her works. Very interesting. Eve's belief is certainly much more Catholic. I mean confession and asking forgiveness of God through "his" priests absolves one from sin, once one completes the penance. Which may be a few Hail Mary's or may be a king having to prostrate himself before the pope. I suspect that the father confessor of the king knew who he had in the confessional that time. But Xena doesn't buy that, as you say. > > In Forgiven she will not seek the priest's forgiveness because she > cannot accept that anyone has the power to forgive her except those > that she harmed. Xena is forever trying to make right her evils. For > her real redemption doesn't come until she can fix her greatest wrong > - her sacrafice for the 40,000 is her greatest redemptive act. We as > witnesses may feel it is wron-headed but for Xena the only path to > redemption is self-sacrafice. Even if the 40,000 all yelled "we > forgive you Xena" it would have not been enough for Xena. Xena must > act - she would never allow the 40,000 to sacrafice their grace for > her. Absolutely. Those gummy souls come zooming out of Yodoshi with the happiest of smiles upon their faces. They are just so glad to be out of his control. I find analogies between FIN and Sin Trades also, as do others. Xena accepted that first she had to right the wrong she'd done to the Amazons before she could try to get to Gabrielle. And the fact that she might die trying to do so didn't matter. She HAD to clean up this mess she'd made. To me, the finest thing about Xena's sacrifice is FIN is purely that she didn't HAVE to do it. She could have let Gabrielle pour out those ashes and just walked away. Saying to herself, "Well, I'll TRY to redeem some other 40,000 souls in the time remaining to me. That'll atone for this." Those souls were not demanding that she stay dead. Their system demanded it for them. Or it wasn't going to let them go to their highest state of grace. Xena voluntarily sacrificing herself for their sake is the finest example of an act done for the Greater Good in the series. KT > > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:28:32 EDT From: BElannafan@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] FIN Poll Results (Long) OK here are the numbers that I got over the past week. The poll was sent to these on-line lists or boards and votes were tallied from them: MaryD's; Nutforum; Clububer; Merpups; Xenaguard; Chakram Refugees; Gabscrolls; Hercxena; Whoosh; flawless; and pnwxenite lists. To remind folks of the choices here they are: 1. Hated FIN a lot (Wanted X & G to walk off into the sunset) 2. Somewhat did not like FIN 3. Didn't care one way or the other 4. Somewhat liked FIN (but wished that Xena didn't die) 5. Liked FIN a lot Here are the results: Total Votes = 168 1. Hated FIN... 87 votes - 51.8% 2. Somewhat did not... 4 votes - 2.4% 3. Didn't care... 2 votes - 1.2% 4. Somewhat liked, wish Xena... 28 votes - 16.7% 5. Liked A Lot... 47 votes - 28.0% Of the people who voted... If I compared the 'didn't like' category (choices 1 & 2) with the 'liked' category (choices 4 & 5) I get 87 votes for Did Not like (54.2%) and 75 votes for liked (44.7%). This is a closer gap that the 65% / 35% split that I had assumed about many on-line fans. Please understand that I Am Not Saying that these votes can be extrapolated out to mean all fandom or even all online fandom. And AGAIN if you want to get into a discussion about whether or not this is a valid poll, do it on another thread. Just looking at this vote, I did see something that I found interesting. While the discussion of FIN was going on over the past year there were many people who said they liked FIN but would not have chosen to have Xena die (thus I included choice #4 to see if folks would choose it). In this poll a good third of the folks who liked FIN chose this option. So to me, it appears that quite a few of the people who voted would have prefered to see Xena remain alive. Now there were folks for whom these choices did not match their thoughts and they either chose the closest or didn't vote at all. There was NOT a lot of these folks; a handful at best. But in case you want to know, here are some of the comments people made when they responded; the names have been removed to protect the innocent. >> 1. Hated FIN a lot (Wanted X & G to walk off into the sunset) is, as you instructed, the closest, but there really ought to be a "0" for "hated it so much I wouldn't even watch it despite being a HCNB fan from the very first episode". >>"5" but with qualifications-- it would be more nearly correct to say i approved of the ending, was awed by the gut-busting effort, and it damn near broke my heart. i approved because for a show like this, to paraphrase toni morrison, a happy ending would be insulting. *just* mho. >>2. Somewhat did not like FIN Because I love "A Chinese Ghost Story" and I never understood why Xena and Gabrielle suddenly appear in this tale. >>Liked FIN a lot (actually I loved it, but you haven't offered that as a choice). Not that I wanted Xena to die-- I don't think ANY of us "wanted" her to die-- but FIN was a fitting and courageous end to Xena's "hero tale", and a wishy-washy "sunset" ending (like TLJ did) would've been a cop-out, IMHO. >>Let's see--a feeling of overwhelming sadness that Xena died for all the wrong reasons, including the fact that she felt vengeance was wrong. The production values were pretty good, and our girl Gab showed a lot of maturity. If this really was just a TV show, a fantasy, a work of fiction, like TPTB kept telling us, then why couldn't we have our fantasy ending? >>I could have accepted Xena's death as necessary if it truly had been a self-sacrifice on behalf of others (perhaps against a superior opponent whom Gabrielle is able to kill because Xena has sufficiently weakened him/her/it/them or otherwise given her the victory while dying in the attempt), but never in the name of vengeance for her past sins. It negated every message TPTB ever sent about accepting that the past cannot be altered but the future holds the possibility of atonement and reparation. >>Hated the episode as the series finale, but liked it for what it was. If it had been an episode during the series run I would have loved it. However, as the finale I hated it and hated the ending. >>I'd have to settle into #4, with reservations. I find it hard to plug my opinion of FIN into one of these categories. I liked FIN very much but wanted Xe and G to walk off into the sunset together. >>My vote for FIN is the answer no. 4 "Somewhat liked FIN (but wished that Xena didn't die)" >>Because no matter the story the plot,the costumes ,the acting,the special effects are worth nothing for me if they give you such a bitter blow at the end. >> I'd have to add a No. 6 - "Wanted X&G to walk off into the sunset, wished Xena didn't die, but liked FIN a lot anyway." >>I'll take choice 6. Astonished disappointment. LOL! >>IMO, Akemi was the weakest character yet....she had no chemistry with Xena at all. In fact, I thought the whole storyline was weak and the whole idea of Xena staying dead to avenge something she did a long time ago...an accident, I might add, and not something done on purpose like other villages she has destroyed in her past...was the lamest excuse to stay dead I have ever seen. >>I loved it. Of course I hated seeing Gabrielle end up alone! But no matter the ending, I saw a wonderfully shot, acted, and entertaining film. And I have so much more respect for everyone involved in the production of it. I may not hate the episode like so many others, but I DO hate all the nasty things that were said about it. The show was fiction. Slamming the real people who made it was uncalled for. >>My feelings for FIN are that, I LOVE every single element about the episode except the story itself. I don't like the fact that they're away from Greece; I don't agree with that. I also don't like that Xena died b/c she died for nothing. But GIVEN that Xena has died, the original ending (Gab alone on ship) is THE BEST EVER ending that tptb could have come up with. I just simply adore it. But do I like the premise? No. I wish every day that the finale happened another way with another story with another ending. But for the choice of killing Xena, this ending is perfect, and I love tptb for it. >>You [f*cked] it up Rob. You spent all that money and did all that feature film posturing and you just plain [f*cked] it up. FIN was a sharp disappointment and ultimately a failure. But it was your failure Rob, not ours. We hung in there till the last bitter dregs. Boy, did we ever. ========================================================== Jan V. Great Post-FIN fanfic The Choice ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:36:42 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Xena and Religion Spoilers for s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s Cheryl wrote (some time ago): > I always felt that behind the mythology of Xena was a stong Christian > and Catholic world view. The fact that we have Xena, a villian, > searching for redemtion is certainly harks back to Christian ideas but > as we get into the story line of Eve and Eli it does become stronger. I did see some posts in Season 5 bemoaning the fact that RT was introducing Christian themes, and I didn't care for it much myself. But any suspicions of mine that RT was sneaking in some quasi-Christian propaganda got firmly squelched by Heart of Darkness and particularly The God You Know. In Heart of Darkness it was quite obvious that Archangel Michael was just using Xena to 'get' his rival Lucifer, at whatever cost to her, and whichever one ended up in Hell didn't worry him unduly, so long as one did. Which makes it retrospectively obvious that in Motherhood, he was using Xena to get rid of the Greek gods, he didn't really care one bit for Xena personally or, probably, Eve, she was just there to spread the Message. This is even more apparent in The God You Know. I have the impression MIchael (or Eli) deliberately sent Eve to Rome to confront Caligula, knowing Xena would have to try to protect her. (Why Eli didn't give someone more handy the power to kill gods, we don't know. Maybe it was a big hassle to arrange, or he just didn't like having too many licensed-to-kill-gods warriors floating around). Michael was quite ready to see Eve sacrificed - another martyr to the cause - in fact he virtually organised it. And he was ready to kill Aphrodite - the God of Love. Well, ex-God and expendable anyway. Not to mention that she was competition - can't have a God of Love competing with the Way of Love Then when Xena tried to kill Michael in retribution, instead of just whipping Michael out of there, Eli (?) got in a snit and removed Xena's power to kill gods and left her to face the god Caligula unarmed. This was not only treacherous, it was stupid of him. So much for the Way of Love. (Incidentally, according to Adrienne Wilkinson it was intended that Michael was going to seduce Eve in her prison cell, but it got cut for time. That would really have sunk his reputation, wouldn't it?) All of which makes Eli and Michael and their organisation only slightly better than Dahak. As between them and Ares, I'll take the God of War any day, thanks. He's more human and has some redeeming features. Thinking it over, how did Caligula get to hook up with Aphrodite? (Xena asked that and got no answer). My theory - maybe Eli steered Caligula to Aph in the first place hoping he'd take her down (since he knew Xena wouldn't) and found he'd miscalculated how powerful Caligula would become. Or maybe he planned the whole thing - that when Caligula became a god (and Aphrodite ceased to be) Xena would kill him and Eli would have _no_ competition left. And the only thing he didn't calculate on was Xena. You know, after that ep, Xena really should have told Eve to stop spreading the word for a God as treacherous as that. Not that Eve would have listened. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 23:49:03 EDT From: Xwpacolyte@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" Well, I've been meaning to get a dvd player (I've had the FIN dvd for several months now) and this discussion has finally motivated me to go find one. So I did just that yesterday and watched the FIN commentary this morning. Is there supposed to be a subtitles track on the dvd? Mine doesn't seem to have one, and it would have been very helpful to understanding what Lucy and Renee were saying at times. (Btw, thanks KT for your transcription; it helped a lot.) On the other hand, I found Rob with his nasally voice very easy to hear and understand. Not only does he have a very clear speaking voice, but also expresses himself well. KTL writes: << L: "Rob said that they didn't want to play it with Gabrielle being jealous, because it was...it's unappealing and it's out of..." R: "It's petty" L: "Yeah, it's petty, it takes the episode somewhere it doesn't want to go. 'Cause it can't be fully explored. So...so you're saying...(Lucy talks slowly, she's thinking things over, apparently groping for what Renee means) ...that your character...thought she was holding back...an important part of her life for...?" R: "Because Xena's loss was so tremendous. It had to be about Xena. Xena had to be hurting and it couldn't be about how Gabrielle was...jealous. >> I think Rob and Renee were quite right in not playing the jealousy card. It wasn't appropriate for this ep and it's been done before anyway. Renee's handling of Xena's revelations about Akemi was very well done imo. Gabby seemed appropriately sympathetic, and even that bit of annoyance Gabby displayed, when she learned that Xena had taught Akemi the pinch, seemed more like mock annoyance. When Gabrielle said something like "You'd only known her for a week and you taught her the pinch!?!" I thought it came off more as an exasperated, but affectionate, What-am-I-gonna-do-with-you? rather than as an offended How-dare-you? I really enjoyed Rob's comments. This thread has focussed mostly on LL & ROC commentary so I was hearing most of Rob's comments for the first time. He seems to be an unusually objective judge of his own work--proud of his successes, but not afraid to admit to his failures--and just extremely down to earth and matter of fact about everything. He's quick to share the credit when things turn out well, and quick to take the blame when they don't. I was particulary impressed that he thought to apologize to Renee for not getting in her closeups in the "listen to the sounds behind the sounds" scene with Xena. Being the boss, he didn't have to explain himself to Renee, and he certainly didn't have to do it so publicly. Now that's the kind of boss that people will give 110% for. If only more bosses could learn this lesson. For the most part, Lucy and Renee just sounded like two friends watching a movie and havin' a good ol' time. They were constantly talking over each other, giggling, and at times joking about what was going on onscreen or offscreen--just like a couple of kids. I found this strangely endearing and irritating at the same time--just like with kids. Let's see, first time I saw Xena she was seducing Iolaus. Then she had a go with Herc. And judging by the intensity of the liplock, I'd guess Xena and Marcus had been on intimate terms. She was engaged to Patrocles, so I believe one could reasonably assume that she slept with him. Ulysses? She probably thought about it (they didn't kiss like they were just friends) but I never could see why any woman, much less Xena, would be interested in a fellow who one minute is totally focussed on returning to his beloved homeland, and the next is ready to chuck his beloved homeland *and* his beloved wife to run off with Xena!?! Anyway, onward. Borias! Now *there* was a man! (Made old Useless seem even more... well, useless.) Don't even have to speculate about Xena and Borias... those 2 were all over each other... on the horse, in the hut... Ok, enough of that. Rafe? Don't think that went too far, but I believe there was a kiss. Who else? Oh, yeah, Caesar--the seducer and betrayer. And then there was Mark Antony--where Xena was the seducer and betrayer. Oh, and I can't leave out Ares. I don't think Xena and Ares ever actually hooked up, but it wasn't for lack of trying on Ares' part and there was plenty of erotic innuendo. Have I left anybody out? Now, your honor, I submit the following, courtesy of KTL : <> Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time reconciling the long list of previous male lovers with Lucy and Renee's comments above. Apparently their concerns about stereotyping Xena as gay don't extend to stereotyping her as heterosexual. From my pov, it seems like Xena was screaming "I'm a het." on a right regular basis. What I'm trying to say here is that Xena having a sexual relationship with Akemi doesn't prove or disprove anything about her relationship with Gabrielle. Why would it? We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Xena had a sexual relationship with Borias in the past, but we don't point to that as proof that she later had a sexual relationship with, say Joxer . Now don't look at me like that! She did care about Joxer, quite a lot actually. Rob, by his silence, comes off as more sensitive to the gay issue. But that could be because he's more aware of _Xena_ as a product that he has to sell, so he's more careful not to make remarks which may alienate any particular segment of fandom. I don't mean to imply that LL and ROC are insensitive to the gay issue. They've both been consistently supportive in my opinion, but supportive as in supporting a cause--not something they have a personal understanding of. The difference is kinda like in a TV move I once saw where a very open minded woman, who even has a best friend who's gay, has real trouble dealing when she learns her child is gay. I guess it's just a difference in perspective. And it makes me all the more grateful to Lucy and Renee for being willing and able to suspend their hetero-perspective enough to make their characters convincingly readable as gay. (Much more convincingly so than Willow and Tara imo, who were supposed to be unquestionably gay. Sorry, Buffy fans.) XWPacolyte Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 23:54:54 -0400 From: "bookdaft" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Unproduced X:WP Script Online I've followed most of the thread on this post and at this point its topic is mostly tangential to Meredith's original post. Therefore I'm returning to the first one. I won't discuss the merits or demerits of either FIN or Fallen. It isn't the quality of either that interest me here, but the content and the history of the two stories. My memory may be poor, but I believe that RJ Stewart said he and Rob Tapert wrote the script sometime in January of 2001. That date may incorrect, but it still is significant to me to know that at the time that Rob Tapert pitched the story to Missy Good, the FIN story, either in beat sheet form or script form, was already set. Missy explained, in another venue, that he committed the time and money to both of them to write the beat sheet and script, then to put it into production with the other stories. Once he did that, the writing staff in LA realized that the script touched on many of the same themes as FIN. Subsequently, Rob was talked out of producing Fallen, because it had several of these same elements. The way Missy put it, the story was about "Xena confronting her mortality and the consequences of her past." Surely, a different framing device than Xena's past abuses could have been used to face her mortality, but that was what was used. So this is what I find intriguing - Rob knew what was in both Fallen and FIN, and yet he felt so strongly about Fallen that he committed resources to it and defended it in story meetings, with the eventual result of having to be persuaded from doing it. To me, this makes Fallen a most interesting artifact. I'll likely never know the thinking behind the story, but pondering it can be an entertaining, if useless pastime. bd - -----Original Message----- From: owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org [mailto:owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org]On Behalf Of meredith Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 11:22 PM To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Subject: [chakram-refugees] Unproduced X:WP Script Online Hi, I don't intend to get into a discussion of the virtual seasons here ... but the "season finale" of the Subtext Virtual Season is of interest to the Xenite community at large, I think. It's an unproduced script that Missy Good actually wrote for the series, based on a story by Rob Tapert himself. This isn't the "lost" musical! It's a very serious episode that only gains in fascination factor when read with FIN in mind. It's at: http://www.xenamultimedia.com/XWPSubtextS7/S7E19/S7-E19-Teaser.htm I don't know what changes, if any were made to the script as it's posted ... but I gotta say I'm really disappointed that it never got produced. It could have been a real corker of an episode. If anyone is on any other lists where Missy Good may have divulged any tidbits about this script, such as where in the season it would have aired and how much of the story was Tapert's and how much was hers, I'd be really interested to know. Enjoy! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #186 **************************************