From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #184 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, July 5 2002 Volume 02 : Number 184 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing"; bickering [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] What DOES she see in her? [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Akemi and Xena [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] What DOES she see in her? [Sekhmet209@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: Deliverer [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] toys-r-us clearance [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing"; bickering [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle's bardometer score [KTL I thought Akemi was finely calculated to appeal to Xena. That innocent but > > eager-to-learn-from-Xena approach (and I don't think it was entirely 'put on' > > for Xena's benefit, I think Akemi genuinely was interested) was nicely > calculated to push all Xena's buttons. Quite aside from any sexual > overtones.>> OK, I'll accept that. In the DC version, I believe there are X&A flashbacks as Xena's chopping off her head -- a la the flashbacks with Gabs. I was initially glad they cut that out, as it seemed to compete with the X&G story. Now I'm thinking it *might* have given me a greater sense of Xena's remembrance of Akemi. Still, I think that may have been too much in terms of all the other things going in FIN, and I can certainly relegate the X&A relationship to a corner of my mind with no problem. > The only explanation that seems to make sense to her is > > that Xena was attracted simply because Xena was gay all along. > > Or, bi. >> Well, I always thought it consistent with Xena's persona (especially as Evil Xena) that she wouldn't deny herself any conquests in whatever form. I would think that had occurred to Lucy also. However, I make a distinction between lust and love. It seemed to me that Akemi was being established as more than a sexual conquest, but as someone Xena felt an affinity for on other levels. Again, I don't understand all the reasons Lucy possibly found this more suggestive of a preference for women than some of Xena's other relationships, whether physically based or on other levels. Or, why Lucy may have thought this made the lesbian or "bi" aspects more obvious than in previous eps. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:26:41 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing"; bickering In a message dated 7/4/2002 9:25:15 AM Central Daylight Time, ribaud@acsu.buffalo.edu writes: > cr wrote: > > > Oh yes, she was taken aback by Akemi's offing Yodoshi, and totally p***ed > off > > that there wasn't going to be any ransom. In fact she was furious. But > > > that doesn't mean that she didn't have some sort of feelings for Akemi. > > Even lovers (and I'm *not* saying Xena and Akemi were!) have the odd spat > > from time to time. (In fact one odd thing about the Xena-Gabs > relationship > > is that they had so few spats. They had the odd Gabdrag and chakattack, > but > > those were occasioned by Big Things caused by external forces. I would > have > > expected two people who were as close as X and G were to bicker more often. > > > But maybe TPTB decided little incidents like that weren't particularly > > edifying and edited them out ;) > > Not *all* of them. I submit, for your consideration, A Day in > the Life, In Sickness and in Hell, and If the Shoe Fits. > > > Lynn Ribaud Well, we do have a few more serious chats/disagreements stemming from personal differences -- like in Ties That Bind, Orphan of War, Return of Callisto, A Necessary Evil, The Execution, The Price, the rift arc, OAAA, When in Rome, A Good Day, Past Imperfect, Daughter of Pomira, Endgame, Convert, Seeds of Faith, Kindred Spirits (I think - whichever one where Gabs wanted to settle down), Who's Gurkhan?, Legacy, Path of Vengeance, and Last of the Centaurs, with some humorous digs sneaked into Comedy of Eros, The Furies, Fins, Vanishing Act, and You Are There. Sure, there were often external causes for these spats, but it was because they hit one or both of the grrrls' hot buttons. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:26:37 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" Oh, this is too good. KT has CR actually defending sensitivity and mush. Heh heh. -- Ife In a message dated 7/4/2002 6:49:29 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Thursday 04 July 2002 19:14, KTL wrote: > > Mucho snippo > > > > > Though, the ransom was almost lost sight of during most of Xena's > journey > > > with Akemi. It faded into the background. So it wasn't present as a > > > driving force during all the scenes Xena had interacting with Akemi, and > > > presumably therefore not prominent to LL as a motive. Whereas their > > > personal interaction and affection was prominent. > > > > Au contraire mon Kiwish. In fact in the very scene where Lucy first > > discusses Xena being outed Xena does an "Aw piffle" over Akemi's > > latest poem and warns her not to forget why they're traveling together. > > > > > > Akemi: In a flurry of snow > > two breaths of wind unite > > and become as one > > and then disappear into each other. > > > > Xena: "Listen, Akemi. I don't want you to take this the wrong > > way. I really love this sword, and you're a nice kid. But I > > just came for the ransom." > > I could say 'methinks she doth protest too much'. I think Xena was doing > the big tough mercenary act but Akemi was getting under her skin, more than > she was prepared to admit. > > > > > And when Akemi kills Yodoshi she says to Xena, "It was my duty. He had to > > die". And Xena immediately responds, "I don't care about that! What about > > the ransom?!" And then screams in fury, "WHERE'S MY MONEY!" > > > > Akemi goes outside in the snow to commit sepukku. But first she asks, > > "Forgive me, Xena". > > > > Xena, still furious, stomps around and says, "I don't suppose there's any > > inheritance in this." (LOL!) > > > > I don't think the money motive slipped too far into the background in > > Xena's mind, pretty poems, batting eyelashes or no. > > Oh yes, she was taken aback by Akemi's offing Yodoshi, and totally p***ed > off > that there wasn't going to be any ransom. In fact she was furious. But > that doesn't mean that she didn't have some sort of feelings for Akemi. > Even lovers (and I'm *not* saying Xena and Akemi were!) have the odd spat > from time to time. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:51:43 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] What DOES she see in her? In a message dated 7/4/2002 4:13:02 PM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Xena saw that Akemi was bound by the strictures of her culture > to go down a path that led to her ultimate destruction. And I think evil > Xena saw Akemi as a character caught in a great personal tragedy. And > that Akemi responded with great intelligence, thought out and put into > action a multi-layered and complex strategy, and got others to do what she > needed them to do. I think Xena admired both her intellect and her > perserverance. And felt compassion for her. > > And then when the final act was ritual suicide, Xena was impressed with > Akemi's courage. There was a job to do and Akemi did it. Even though she > knew she would have to die at the end of it. Akemi is a truly tragic hero. > In the sense of a hero being someone who fights for what's right, no > matter what the cost to themselves. > By the gods, woman, you're good! Yes, this makes sense -- especially the "she did what she had to do and was willing to pay the consequences" aspect. Now, 'splain how Akemi knew which buttons to push on a woman she'd only heard about, as I can't imagine some equivalent of Oprah doing a traveling show about how Xena was a good girl forced to be bad by warlords and a genetic propensity for violence, but who secretly yearned for admiration and her lost innocence. Hmmm, okay, the admiration I can buy, since Xena was pretty obvious about needing to be top dog. And maybe it was confidence in her own wiles that made Akemi confident she'd make Xena love her. Other ideas? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:51:46 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Akemi and Xena In a message dated 7/4/2002 6:27:47 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > Akemi is the first person who treats Xena as an adult - a person who is > important in her own right. On the boat with Akemi and Borias, Borias > laughs > at Xena when she says she will be Akemi teacher - it is Akemi who > immediately > pops up and says Xena will be a great teacher ( and promptly gets kicked in > the ribs). I think Akemi made Xena feel special - something more than just > a > thug on the make. In some way perhaps Xena was trying to duplicate the > realtionship with Lo Mao with Xena as the mentor and Akemi as student. Also > Xena was a bit baffeled by Akemi - the girl who gives her a poem and a sword. > > Young Xena I think also was attracted by an innocence that Akemi reprsented. > Of course it was a lie - Akemi wasn't innoncent and I think it was that > illusion being shattered that broke Xena's heart mor than her death. > Yes, you and others make some good points. I just find myself working even harder than usual to find Akemi believable on any level. Too much mysterious "insight and knowledge," particularly about someone she hadn't even met. That said, I still have a greater appreciation for her as a character -- rather than simply a plot device -- because of this thread. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:59:18 EDT From: Sekhmet209@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] What DOES she see in her? In a message dated 7/5/02 1:52:06 AM, IfeRae@aol.com writes: >Now, 'splain how Akemi knew which buttons to push on a woman she'd only heard >about, as I can't imagine some equivalent of Oprah doing a traveling show >about how Xena was a good girl forced to be bad by warlords and a genetic >propensity for violence, but who secretly yearned for admiration and her lost >innocence. Hmmm, okay, the admiration I can buy, since Xena was pretty >obvious about needing to be top dog. And maybe it was confidence in her own >wiles that made Akemi confident she'd make Xena love her. Other ideas? Maybe her grandfather told her what to do. ;-) - --Sekhmet ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:39:39 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Deliverer KT wrote: > > > > But also because this ep is > >the beginning of the rift arc where high drama and angst were the order of > >the day. (Even if it meant twisting and tweaking the established > >character traits of our grrls some.) md answered: > > absolutely. however, i still think xena had good reason to be casual about > gab's playmates which to me makes gabrielle's purported hatred of her in > over xena abandoning her a bit of a stretch. i'd have bought it more > easily if she hated xena for having been right about hope. i don't suppose > that would fly very well in this kind of show, but it would be more nearly > true to life. to me anyway. rehashing the hash yet again. > Oooooo, hating Xena for being right about Hope. A VERY complex and complicated mix of feelings. Could have offered some very fine scenes. And yeah, would have been more believable than that Gabrielle was p*ssed at Xena because she hadn't baby sat her well enough. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 02:04:05 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] toys-r-us clearance > Hi, > > A work friend just told me that a friend of his who > works for Toys-R-Us let him know that the chain is > clearing out their remaining stock of X:WP dolls and > action figures, at low low prices (like $8 for the 12" > dolls). I haven't independently verified this (though > I do plan to stop by the two stores that are on my way > home this evening :), but I thought I'd pass it along. > > Meredith You know, the Kay-Bee toy stores up here continue to restock their shelves with on sale Xena dollies. I don't know why they are still carrying them when they immediately mark them down, but the sales kid told me that they order them all the time. Actualy, I wonder where the heck they're getting them. But I've gotten some of the 12 inch dollies for like $5.99. I scored both a Xena shamaness one and and an Ares one about two months ago. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:24:50 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing"; bickering On Friday 05 July 2002 02:24, Lynn W Ribaud wrote: > cr wrote: (snip) > > I would have expected two people who were as close as > > X and G were to bicker more often. But maybe TPTB decided little > > incidents like that weren't particularly edifying and edited them out > > ;) > > Not *all* of them. I submit, for your consideration, A Day in > the Life, In Sickness and in Hell, and If the Shoe Fits. > Agreed, but that still seems a rather small sample for a savage warlord like Xena and a stroppy Irritating Blonde (TM) like Gabby. I think we just got to see the highlights. After all, domesticity is boring. (Contemplates the housework all round him, waiting to be done). Dead boring. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:55:04 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing"; bickering On Friday 05 July 2002 17:26, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Well, we do have a few more serious chats/disagreements stemming from > personal differences -- like in Ties That Bind, Orphan of War, Return of > Callisto, A Necessary Evil, The Execution, The Price, the rift arc, OAAA, > When in Rome, A Good Day, Past Imperfect, Daughter of Pomira, Endgame, > Convert, Seeds of Faith, Kindred Spirits (I think - whichever one where > Gabs wanted to settle down), Who's Gurkhan?, Legacy, Path of Vengeance, and > Last of the Centaurs, with some humorous digs sneaked into Comedy of Eros, > The Furies, Fins, Vanishing Act, and You Are There. Sure, there were often > external causes for these spats, but it was because they hit one or both of > the grrrls' hot buttons. > > -- Ife Well, I was just thinking of how furious Xena was with Akemi when she killed Yodoshi. And I don't think we've ever seen Xena furious with Gabs over anything except the death of Solan - and that was something right out of the ball park - and getting her captured in The Debt. Not, for example, in Legacy when Gabby totally screwed up Xena's plans, or Callisto when Gabby went and got herself captured, or... you get the picture ;) Gabby went off at Xena in Seeds of Faith but I can't call to mind any others. All the others you mention have been differences of opinion with some sarcastic remarks but never reached the stage of yelling at each other. (Are there any I've forgotten?) Of course, well-adjusted people in a relationship shouldn't need to yell at each other, but who said Xena was well-adjusted? (And I'm not too sure about Gabby either :). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I wanted to see them yelling at each other (sarcastic remarks are much more fun if they're witty) but I'm sure they must have had some off-camera moments, it's only human. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:33:08 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] What DOES she see in her? On Friday 05 July 2002 09:12, KTL wrote: > > Kao: "This girl deserves to die. Speaking like that in front of > my guests!" > > Ake: "You won't kill me. Xena won't let you. Because in her > heart...she knows that she will soon love me." > > B: "Xena loves no one." > And wasn't that a *lovely* dirty/suspicious look that Xena gave Borias when he said that? :) > A: "I'll be your student, Xena. You'll take me with you. > You'll teach me everything you know." > > (Nice echoes of Xena's meeting with Gabrielle. Hey--how did Gab know that > saying she wanted to learn from Xena was a good note to play? Hmmmm.) > > > To me Akemi was an Insignificant Character out of Xena's past > > (When Xena Wasn't Too Smart!) > > You know, it's only after this thread that I'm beginning to realize what > Akemi meant to Xena. And I think it's that she was just so furken > star-crossed, just like Xena was. Look at the hand Akemi was dealt. Her > father is a horrificially evil person. He did unspeakable things to > her mother, sisters, brothers, grandparents (his folks or the wife's? I > wonder about that too) and so far has gotten away with it. He's > living in a nice comfortable upper class home, living a very civilized > life. No one is making him pay for what he did to his wife, children and > his parents and/or parents-in-law. It is left up to Akemi to take > vengeance for the murder of her family by another family member. I see her as an admirable character, actually. Certainly not lacking in courage. It must have taken some nerve to try to deceive someone with the reputation of Evil Xena, who was quite capable of killing anyone she didn't care for. For example, when she led Xena to her grandfahter's grave and Xena furiously unsheathed her sword as if to cut Akemi's head off, Akemi calmly pulled her hair out of the way and called Xena's bluff. That took nerve. And she wasn't afraid to stand up to Yodoshi, even to try to kill him full-on at the spring on Mt Fuji. She knew that if she failed, he would be capable of inflicting some particularly hideous punishment on her - for ever. The main beef against Akemi seems to be that she deceived Xena. So what? Xena (especially at that time of her career) deceived and used anyone any time she felt like it. I think Xena would have felt it demeaning to her reputation to cry 'foul' when someone else successfully outbluffed her. > Hmmm. I wonder how that warlord got Akemi in the first place? I bet she > ran up to him and said, "Take me with you!" From the 'Green' script: AKEMI I'm sorry I had to use you Xena. But this was necessary. His power was dependent on his marriage to my mother. He didn't like that string, so he severed it along with my mother's throat. He then wanted to get rid of me, the only other claimant to his fiefdom. He beat me half to death and then hurled me off a cliff. The Kami were kind and allowed me to land on soft sand. Pirates found me and nursed me back to health. ..... and presumably sold her to Kao later on. > > > In other words Akemi's character was not worthy of the effort that we saw > > this season-six Xena expend. That is *surely* a matter of opinion. I didn't think Gabby was, either, certainly not in the early eps. And I could make a case that Lao Ma tried to use Xena just as thoroughly as ever Akemi did. Especially when it came to sending Xena the message that took her to Chin and nearly got her killed. That is of course, just my opinion and no more proveable than 'Akemi wasn't worth it'. > > But after the posts on this thread I think perhaps that the line, "She > broke my heart" has deeper meanings than just "This old girlfriend of mine > broke my heart." Xena ain't just singing, "This old heart of mine, it's > died a thousand times". > > I think perhaps Stewart may have written that line to mean, "She was a > good kid, thoughtful, smart, creative and respectful of the rules of her > society and culture. Then her father totally screwed up her life and she > paid the ultimate sacrifice to make things right. She was such a noble > character in such a rotten situation. That sucks so bad it hurts me to > remember it." That's the impression I got from hearing that line, the first time I saw the ep and every time since - that it wasn't necessarily a reflection of a romantic attachment between them, more that it was a reflection of some tragic circumstances which we were about to hear. The same way that M'Lila's death upset Xena so much. > Look at the follow-up dialogue. > > Gabrielle: "She broke your heart? I don't understand." > > Xena: "For a while, I didn't understand myself." > > > BUT: first, I may be wrong that that's what Stewart and Tapert meant. And > second, I don't think that's how Lucy saw it. Or else she wouldn't have > felt that in this particular ep Xena must have been totally in love with > Akemi in a sexual way. Cause that's the only motivation for her behavior > she could come up with. That makes complete sense to me. :) > It's funny to me that Lucy and Renee didn't talk more to each other about > what they thought the story was about while they were filming it. I had this discussion on another list with a fan who was shocked that the actors and the producer could have different things in mind. My feeling is, that it doesn't matter how the actor produces the emotion required so long as they can give the appearance the producer wants. Because all the audience can see is the appearance (and Zeus knows, the audience then proceeds to produce its own widely diverging interpretations of what it 'means' anyway). As a case in point, LL saying 'she broke my heart' (and she delivered that line magnificently) thought it was due to a romantic attachment, while you and I (and I think RJ) saw a far wider interpretation of the meaning of the words. I do like Akemi. She has flaws but then, who hasn't? Thanks for the post, KT! Incidentally, there's one point that doesn't really hang together and that's the acquisition of the sacred katana. We know that RT wanted the sword to drive the action (he said so in the commentary) and indeed it does from that point on. But why did Akemi want Xena to go to such lengths to get it? So she could have her head cut off with a special sword? That seems like a bit of egotism quite out of character with what we know of Akemi. Possibly at one stage in the script development it may have been intended that the sacred katana was needed to defeat Yodoshi and that got dropped in favour of the 'pinch' (I'm guessing here). And it led to that cool swordfight and a couple of lovely lines from Evil Xena that had me applauding in delight so I don't mind. It's not actually a YAXI, just an unexplained detail. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:07:16 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" On Friday 05 July 2002 17:26, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/4/2002 4:08:34 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > I thought Akemi was finely calculated to appeal to Xena. That innocent > > but > > > eager-to-learn-from-Xena approach (and I don't think it was entirely > > 'put > > on' > > > for Xena's benefit, I think Akemi genuinely was interested) was nicely > > calculated to push all Xena's buttons. Quite aside from any sexual > > overtones.>> > > OK, I'll accept that. In the DC version, I believe there are X&A > flashbacks as Xena's chopping off her head -- a la the flashbacks with > Gabs. I was initially glad they cut that out, as it seemed to compete with > the X&G story. Now I'm thinking it *might* have given me a greater sense of > Xena's remembrance of Akemi. Still, I think that may have been too much in > terms of all the other things going in FIN, and I can certainly relegate > the X&A relationship to a corner of my mind with no problem. > > > The only explanation that seems to make sense to her is > > > > > that Xena was attracted simply because Xena was gay all along. > > > > Or, bi. >> > > Well, I always thought it consistent with Xena's persona (especially as > Evil Xena) that she wouldn't deny herself any conquests in whatever form. I'm sure Evil Xena went for anything that moved ;) > I would think that had occurred to Lucy also. However, I make a > distinction between lust and love. It seemed to me that Akemi was being > established as more than a sexual conquest, but as someone Xena felt an > affinity for on other levels. Yes, as that ol' KT pointed out in one of her long posts. In fact I'm not sure Akemi was a sexual conquest at all. I think TPTB left it as undefined as they always did. > Again, I don't understand all the reasons > Lucy possibly found this more suggestive of a preference for women than > some of Xena's other relationships, whether physically based or on other > levels. Or, why Lucy may have thought this made the lesbian or "bi" > aspects more obvious than in previous eps. > > -- Ife Umm, all I can think of is (as I said) that FIN may have been one of the few completed eps she watched at leisure, therefore the first time she'd seen the subtext made so evident. But as I noted, I think LL's comment was more related to Gabrielle's (potential) jealousy of Akemi, and hence the 'regular' subtext, than to Xena and Akemi's relationship. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:00:09 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" On Friday 05 July 2002 17:26, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Oh, this is too good. KT has CR actually defending sensitivity and mush. > Heh heh. -- Ife That's only because KT is *such* a cynic. :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:24:44 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle's bardometer score md wrote: (Yes she wrote this a LONG time ago, but I'm finally not so busy in work...) > > >i kind of > > >liked the "i'm sorry i never read your scrolls" line from but i > > >think a better reply would have been "it's just as well, you'd have hated > > >them" (said with a brave yet wry smile). Sek answered: > > > >That would have been _much_ better. > > md: > > >xena would, too--have hated them, > > >i mean. i love gabrielle, but i certainly hate her writing. > > >that was always a burr under my saddlecloth. > > > >Yeah-- offhand I can't think of a quoted sample that _wasn't_ painful. Sojourner added: > > > Not only did her written work suck - but also the times she actually > performed as a bard - she sucked. > > I just LOVE the fanfic which portrays her as some super-bard. That's why > it's fantasy.... (recurring theme this week) > > Sojourner Cheryl A replied: > > Obviously her written work did not suck or else why were Xena and > Gabrielle so well known after 25 years in the deep freeze. In Legacy > even Arab tribes knew who the two were and they knew because of the > scrolls. But the scrolls were essentially a biography. Gabrielle is a Boswell, not a Shakespeare. There's lots of extant work that stinks as prose but that is valuable for the history that it contains. Content is more important than the skill used in relating it. And certainly it's the content that those tribes were interested in and that made them admire Xena. When the mythical hero comes up short by the rules of their culture, Kahina sharply complains to Gabrielle, "You left some stuff out of those scrolls, didn't you." Now that's not a statement one makes about literature. Because in literature, the story is created by the writer and can go anywhere. But in assessing historical documents, this is a valid gripe. And apparently like some admiring biographers, Gabrielle didn't write down the events in Xena's life that showed her in a bad light, or possibly she downplayed them. Or perhaps the scrolls the tribes had were just fragments and they just happened to get the more admirable stuff. Joxer and Meg apparently did quit nicely with the Warrior and > Bard Cafe and this was I assume because everyone knew Xena and Gabrielle > from the scrolls. Well, I think a good bar is popular just because it's a good bar. I don't think people choose their bars by their names particularly. (I did a little search on the web for New Zealand pub names and didn't find many. But found some good British ones. The Leg and Cramp, The Sprout and Mackeral, and The Butcher and Beast were some that I felt MIGHT have applied to Xena and Gabrielle also. But my favorite one was The Cow and Plough, seeing as how it highlights our strange unruly English pronunciations.) At any rate, I think most people chose bars for price, quality of food and drink and for the ambience. (You wanna go where everybody knows your name.) But I don't think folks would go to bars to honor the creatures they're named after. Gabrielle did win admittance to the Academy in Athens > for Performing Bard No, she got in by lying. And then she got thrown out for cheating her way in. And then the boys demanded she be given a chance to compete. But we never really hear the outcome except that one of the boys got in. We don't find out who the other three winners were. When Xena asks Gabrielle, "Who won?", she answers, "I did." Did she mean that she won the contest or that she won because she figured out she should go live life rather than just write about it? and when Xena finally read the scrolls she was quite > touched by them. We do have two instances where Gabrielle was a bad > writer - The Plays The Thing where she got rather wrapped in trying to > write a morality tale and perhaps The Quill is Mightier where she tried > fiction with herself as hero. > I think one needs to add When Fates Collide. I love the shot of the bored out of their minds audience. The only one appearing to enjoy the show is Poodle Xena. And the only thing she's excited about is the concept of the play. Not the dialogue or the structure or the characterizations. Nope, the idea of dying for love just seems to really appeal to her. So much so that when she's nailed to the cross, she doesn't even try to get away. "C'mon! Kill me now! Let me die for love! Yee-hah!" In Fates, the only person who claims that Gabrielle is really good is one of the actors, who introduces her as "Gabrielle, the visionary voice of Athens." Now at the end, Xena does call her a famous playwright. But then gives a RealXena critique. G: "I like (this world) better. X: "Even though you're not a famous playwright?" G: (Answering in her season six basso profundo voice) "Fame--who needs it? Did you really like my play?" X: "It was all right. Maybe it could've done with a few more fight scenes." LOL! So anyway, I'm with the band of folks who find the fanfic fawning over Gabrielle's incredible writing and barding skills highly amusing. Like them, I sure didn't find them all that impressive in the show. It's just another of those fanfic "traditions" that don't quite match the "reality" of the show. KT > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 12:39:50 -0400 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] ADMIN: One-Liners and Quoting Hi, I should write a bot that sends out an auto-reminder once a month around this time ... Please, people, ***PLEASE*** remember two of the rules of this list: - -- No excessive quoting, and (especially) - -- No one-liners !!! Reading last night's Digest was a singularly painful experience. And I consider myself a pretty flexible and forgiving person. I really don't want to have to set moderation for the most chronic offenders, but I will if this gets out of hand one more time. Sorry if this post comes across as annoyed ... but, well, at this point I kinda am. As always, if you have a question as to whether you've snipped enough, please feel free to send the post to owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org instead of to the list. I'll review it and send it through, either with additional snippage or not, depending. It'll delay your post a little bit (particularly if it's during the work day), but it'll make this list a better place to be. Thanks all ... there are some great threads going on right now, so please keep it up -- but keep your fellow listmembers in mind as you do! ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:49:41 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] What DOES she see in her? In a message dated 7/5/2002 2:59:53 AM Central Daylight Time, Sekhmet209@aol.com writes: > > >Now, 'splain how Akemi knew which buttons to push on a woman she'd only > heard > >about, as I can't imagine some equivalent of Oprah doing a traveling show > >about how Xena was a good girl forced to be bad by warlords and a genetic > >propensity for violence, but who secretly yearned for admiration and her > lost > >innocence. Hmmm, okay, the admiration I can buy, since Xena was pretty > >obvious about needing to be top dog. And maybe it was confidence in her > own > >wiles that made Akemi confident she'd make Xena love her. Other ideas? > > Maybe her grandfather told her what to do. ;-) > D'uh! Of course! Instead of simply getting Ghost Grandpappy's counsel at the shrine, she was also thanking him for his previous info on Xena. And that ties neatly into why she went out of her way to visit him in the first place. See, if we all share our insights, look at how much we can piece together. Amazing. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:49:57 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing"; bickering In a message dated 7/5/2002 5:53:06 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Friday 05 July 2002 17:26, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > Well, we do have a few more serious chats/disagreements stemming from > > personal differences -- like in Ties That Bind, Orphan of War, Return of > > Callisto, A Necessary Evil, The Execution, The Price, the rift arc, OAAA, > > When in Rome, A Good Day, Past Imperfect, Daughter of Pomira, Endgame, > > Convert, Seeds of Faith, Kindred Spirits (I think - whichever one where > > Gabs wanted to settle down), Who's Gurkhan?, Legacy, Path of Vengeance, > and > > Last of the Centaurs, with some humorous digs sneaked into Comedy of Eros, > > The Furies, Fins, Vanishing Act, and You Are There. Sure, there were > often > > external causes for these spats, but it was because they hit one or both > of > > the grrrls' hot buttons. > > > > -- Ife > > Well, I was just thinking of how furious Xena was with Akemi when she killed > > Yodoshi. > > And I don't think we've ever seen Xena furious with Gabs over anything > except > the death of Solan - and that was something right out of the ball park - and > > getting her captured in The Debt. > > Not, for example, in Legacy when Gabby totally screwed up Xena's plans, or > Callisto when Gabby went and got herself captured, or... you get the > picture ;) Gabby went off at Xena in Seeds of Faith but I can't call > to > mind any others. > > All the others you mention have been differences of opinion with some > sarcastic remarks but never reached the stage of yelling at each other. > (Are there any I've forgotten?) > Well, I thought the argument in Return of Callisto -- Gabs wanting Xena to teach her to fight -- was pretty intense. Heck, Gabs poked Xena with that sword quite a few times, and Xena wasn't too gentle about knocking the sword away. I thought their differences in The Execution, The Price and the Convert were pretty serious, too. A lot more than some sarcastic remarks. As close as they were, sometimes simply questioning each other's judgment or goals was, relatively speaking, the equivalent of a big set-to. But maybe you're talking more about bickering about small things -- like who should cook or hunt bunny rabbits? If so, then most of the comedies have that. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #184 **************************************