From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #181 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, July 3 2002 Volume 02 : Number 181 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Hello and stuff [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Director's Cut and subtext [cr ] [chakram-refugees] <> [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Hello and stuff ["Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Hello and stuff On Wednesday 03 July 2002 08:01, Xena Torres wrote: > First, hello. I'm new to this list. The name is Xena Torres and I used to > run the PNW Online Xena Fan Club. In case you were a surfer and wondered > what happened, evil Yahoo changed my password and will not give me the new > one. :( But, on the bright side, it's making me stay hard at work on an all > new website I will be launching in about one year: The "Xena: Warrior > Princess" Nitpicker's Guild. A year? I was hoping your Season 6 transcripts would be up soon, along with your earlier season transcripts. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:04:13 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> I think 'the Vision' and the subtle changes that each appearance of it went through indicate that they had that aspect of it at least, carefully planned out. cr On Wednesday 03 July 2002 11:14, Cheryl Ande wrote: > I have had my misgivings about some aspects of season 4 but I really though > it was one of the best planned of the series. Each episode seemed to > logically lead to the next. So I guess TPTB really did have a naster plan > that they pretty much stuck to. > > > Oh, nice catch! Great review. I happened to watch FA the other night, > > for > > > the first realizing how much it led in to the India arc. > > > > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:02:35 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Director's Cut and subtext On Wednesday 03 July 2002 11:02, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 07/02/2002 7:07:45 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > << I was watching the Director's Cut commentary last night, and I have to > admit > that LL did mention in several places that she thought they had made the > subtext explicit in that episode. >> > > Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was surprised at hearing that the > reference was just to Akemi. > > -- Ife I was picking up on what someone else said, and maybe misinterpreting it too. Until there's a transcript of it, almost everyone discussing the commentary (including me!) is going from memory and inaccuracies and interpretations are creeping in. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 01:59:40 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > > And I agree-being with Gabrielle did indeed help Xena to bring these > > deliberately submerged and deliberately blocked and ignored good feelings > > back up to the surface, to be felt and embraced again. > > > > Xena says in Sin Trades that Gabrielle gave her a light of her own. But I > > think more it was that having someone so young, innocent and compassionate > > as Gabrielle in her life just helped Xena's little internal pilot light of > > goodness spark up into flame again. > > Ife replied: > > I understand your reluctance to give others -- Gabrielle included -- all the > credit for Xena's "re-creation" (to borrow the term she uses with Tara) of > herself. (Respectfully snipped for bandwidth sake) Well, I hope you gave a huge "D'OH!" of contrition after reading my next post on this thread where I do give Gabrielle credit for helping Xena stay on her new path. (Sins of omission, d'oh's of contrition.) While I believe that Xena would certainly have reformed herself eventually, I think that her path would have been even harder than it was without Gabrielle there, believing in her, nagging at her and irritating her into doing good even if she didn't always feel like it. And I certainly have no reluctance to give other's credit for helping Xena on her way through life. Xena's constant desire to learn new things is one of the traits I absolutely loved about her. She was ever a willing student and sought out knowledge wherever, whenever and in whatever package it came in. She showed absolute humility in opening herself to learning. Even when she was evil, she still had a thirst for knowledge that was unquenchable. And she followed up on it all the time, thus truly giving her the right to say, "I have many skills". Laugh--I just had a flash on when she first uses that line. In The Black Wolf. The guy says to her, "You embroider?" And she answers very frostily, "I have many skills." A line that's very funny yeah, but yet it's so Xena too--that the knowledge even of embroidery is something to be worked at and an accomplishment to be proud of. Certainly, her desire for knowledge often focused on learning new ways to fight or to gain power over others. But I think it was also just a huge streak of both curiousity and the desire to be the best at anything in the whole wide world that drove her to snatch at any chance to learn something new. I loved the teaching scenes in the Debt. I thought Lao Ma was an extraordinary character and wish we had seen more of her. It was very poignant to me, to watch how vulnerable Xena was with her. Even though Lao Ma had her own agenda, Xena just blossomed under her attention and care. And then blew it through not being able to let go of her hatred for Ming Tzu. I think it's just beautiful that when Lao Ma offers to save Xena from the hounds racing after her, she says, "Come with me if you wish your freedom." Not "If you wish to save your life", but "if you wish your freedom". 'Cause Lao Ma has plans to free Xena's mind and soul from the hate filled world she's been living in. I was watching part of the Debt the other night and was focusing on the way Lucy portrayed Xena with this mentor of hers. Xena was so young, so wild, so Punk! She's easily angered and just p*ssed off that she can't quite figure out exactly what Lao Ma is all about. A long time ago on another list, a guy posted that Xena didn't know how to respond to Lao Ma because so few people had ever been kind to Xena in her life. And I think that's a very precise and correct analysis. Xena doesn't understand why Lao Ma saved her. And doesn't really know how to thank her. She eagerly jumps at the chance to serve her but Lao Ma dismisses this because Xena loves her which makes serving her just too easy. Xena is constantly off guard and frustrated by this enigmatic woman who combines goodness and power. A new combination for Xena. But then Lao Ma takes Xena to see her husband. And suddenly Xena sees that Lao Ma is not entirely good, not entirely detached. Xena says wonderingly, "I heard you keep him in a coma. I didn't believe it, but it's true." Lao Ma answers, "Oh, yes. If he were actually dead, word would get out and his imbecile cousin would become king." Later Xena says, "So you rule in his name". And Lao Ma answers, "The only way a woman could rule in the kingdom of Chin." She then explains how her ruling is actually serving the greater good. But I'm not so sure that Xena totally buys that. Because, in this scene, for the first time since Lao Ma saved her, Xena actually taunts Lao Ma rather than just showing impatience and frustration with her lessons. She smirks at her as she says, "Yeah, nothing seems to phase you. Except that boy I kidnapped. Everytime he ignores you, that cuts deep." I think Xena feels that Lao Ma is maybe not the ideal of perfection she lectures about. But I think Xena still feels she's WAY better a person than Xena is. And sure had a hell of a lot to teach her. And did. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:27:03 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD Thel wrote: > because LL's comment is often quoted (in mailing > lists) as recognition of the 'subtext', implying X-G subtext. (Which may > be implicit in her comments or not). I think it's time I watched the > commentary again. Is there a transcript up anywhere? >> > Ife answered: > I'm going mainly on what others have said, since I don't have a DVD player > yet for my FIN DVD. I don't either, but I done got me a new work laptop that happens to play DVDs. Grin back. I hadn't realized until recently that LL > apparently made her "out" comment in connection with Akemi. I got the > impression she was talking about X&G, not subtext related to or > including other characters. > > I do recall seeing printed commentary somewhere, but can't remember the > source. Now I'm a lot more curious to hear the voice inflections and scenes > that correspond to the comments. Even then, that won't take into > consideration that these are somewhat hindsight responses/recollections that > might be different from LL's initial reaction. And, of course, each of us > will "hear" it through our own filters -- as we did with ROC's comment about > playing it "straight." > > -- Ife Okay, we already had this discussion on another list. On that list the interpretation of what Lucy had said was so far extrapolated that some people were claiming that what Lucy indicated on the DVD was that she had always considered Xena gay and always wanted to play her as gay but that the suits in charge wouldn't allow it. I sure thought that was streeeeeetchiiiiing what she said just a bit. So I wrote up a post with transcripts of each time I heard them discussing Xena as being outed in FIN on the DVD. I'll forward it as my next post. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:32:54 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ARRRRGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I can't STAND it anymore! I usually just lurk on this list (although I have written privately to those folks whose posts I enjoy on here) but I just gotta get involved this time. I have been following along on this thread. What is so interesting to me is that this whole thread has developed as a response to someone's initial extrapolation of what Lucy said in the DVD. I've seen this happen before many times in the Xenaverse. This thread is a textbook example of how things steamroll from what starts off as one fan's interpretation. I HAVE the DVD. This is exactly (or at least as close as I can transcribe it) what they say: (NOTE: I use a lot of ellipses when transcibing their comments. Sorry if they don't come through.) We see the scene showing Akemi reading the first poem she wrote for Xena. The next shot is Xena and Gabrielle on the boat. And Gabrielle says about the poem, "So beautiful. To write something like that, she must have loved you very much." Xena doesn't answer. And she looks upset. Gabrielle asks, "What's wrong?" And Xena finally says, "The truth is, Gabrielle (and Lucy tears up), she broke my heart." At this point, Lucy says in the commentary, "See we have for YEARS, been playing these characters as if...(Pause.)...they're...uh...all of a sudden we're coming out and going, (Lucy puts on an "acting" voice) 'Yep...I had a former girlfriend'. (Renee laughs) "Like...uh...like it's just an accepted fact that our characters are gay. And you and I... Renee interrupts with a little laugh, "That's so true..." Lucy continues, "...no matter what our characters had to do or no matter about the subtext, never really thought of our characters in terms of...sexual beings. R: (Interrupts) "Stereotyping. Right, right, right" L: "Or uh...er...ummm..." R: "It was about the love of our friendship". L: "Yeah. That you play it kind of straight, no matter what you're doing. 'Cause, I mean none of MY lesbian friends scream, "I'm a lesbian" every second of the day, right? But here, all of a sudden, our characters are just so out. Explicitly out. I think. R: "Yes, you know, it's funny you say that. Because I didn't even think about it again while we were filming. I just thought that it must have been someone that you cared about so deeply. As much as Gabrielle, that (laughing) you didn't want to...share" L: "So you were playing it straight again in your own head?" R:."I was, yeah, I was playing it straight. Isn't that funny? I just thought that 'Well, she must have kept this one from me because (laughs) this is one that really hurt.'" L: "Because why?" R: "Because it was someone that you maybe loved more than Gabrielle or as much as." L: "Really? So Rob..." Renee: "The loss was too dramatic..." L: "Rob said that they didn't want to play it with Gabrielle being jealous, because it was...it's unappealing and it's out of..." R: "It's petty" L: "Yeah, it's petty, it takes the episode somewhere it doesn't want to go. 'Cause it can't be fully explored. So...so you're saying...(Lucy talks slowly, she's thinking things over, apparently groping for what Renee means) ...that your character...thought she was holding back...an important part of her life for...?" R: "Because Xena's loss was so tremendous. It had to be about Xena. Xena had to be hurting and it couldn't be about how Gabrielle was...jealous. L: "Ahhhh, that's really interesting." R: "So it had to be about, 'My friend here is in...'" L: (interrupting) "In pain." R: (continues over Lucy) "...mourning and in pain because of the loss..." L: "Ahhhh" R: "...of her friend that was so cherished." L: "Wow!" Renee laughs. L: (In joking tone) "Wow. You're a very SPECIAL character." R: "Well yeah, there ya go." They both laugh. R: "Okay. That's how I play...non-jealousy. They both continue to laugh. L: "Yeah." Now where in the above is anything remotely close to Lucy saying she was frustrated and thwarted because although Xena was written and envisioned as gay all along, she was not able to play her that way because it would have endangered the continued production of the show? She says nothing anywhere near that. Yet this is what this thread has evolved into suggesting. The only frustration I hear is that Lucy feels her character was outed in the last ep and there was no reason to do so. She can't seem to figure out why they didn't keep it ambiguous, just like it had always been. What this exchange made ME wonder was why Lucy thinks this ep is any more overt than many others of the same tone. I mean, I thought about the Debt, where we see Xena in a former relationship with a woman and in Destiny where we meet M'Lila. Why, if Lucy didn't think those eps outed Xena as explicitly gay, does she think FIN does? After listening to the entire commentary the only thing I could come up with to figure out why Lucy might feel this ep is different, was that she could not figure out what Xena got from being with Akemi. Lao Ma and M'Lila had things she wanted to learn. They were mentors for her, they had skills that she wanted to claim for herself. Although there was never any love I could see in the relationship between Xena and Alti, again, it's that "She's got power from things she knows. I want to get some of that power" thing that drives Xena to become a protege of Alti. But what does Akemi know that Xena doesn't? What skill or power or ability does Akemi have that Xena can get from being with her? I suspect from what Lucy says in the commentary that she couldn't come up with anything to explain that. And actors need to know what the characters are thinking and why they feel the way they do before they can portray it. So it occurred to me that it was possible that Lucy decided the only thing Xena saw in Akemi was that she was a beautiful young woman and Xena was sexually attracted to her. And so Lucy apparently read this last script as definitely declaring Xena as feeling sexual love for Akemi, unlike those other women in Xena's life, and therefore outing her. I don't fully understand this possible reasoning, since the motivation of holding the girl for ransom was the reason the story gave for them being together. But I just can't figure out any other reason for Lucy thinking this ep was any more subtextually overt than many others. As I rewatched the commentary this morning to make these notes, I noticed this other interesting take from Lucy which I believe gives us another glimpse into this belief of hers that Xena loved Akemi in a different way than she loved the other women in her past. Xena and Akemi are in the small open-fronted shelter and Akemi is reading another poem to Xena. And Xena says that she can hear Akemi's heart, "Beating harder than normal." Akemi gives her a soulful yet somewhat exasperated look. (Lucy starts to give out little snorty chuckles as she watches the interaction between them.) Akemi's speech ends with "...and then you go and save my life. There's no greater gift of love a teacher can give a student than that." Lucy says, "It's weird though, it doesn't seem like the sort of...um...human being, I mean, um...she's nothing like...Borias." Rob: "Xe...Evil Xena you mean." L: "No, no, no, no, no. Um, Akemi. So...peculiar that...Xena's attracted to her. But I guess, argh. I don't know. It was in the script, so we did it." (Laugh.) Again I hear frustration and specific disagreement with her own perception that the script indicated that Xena was gay. She can't figure out why Xena would be sexually attracted to both Borias and Akemi, two such different people at the same time. But that's the conclusion she's come to, so she's still worrying at it. Later on there is yet another instance of Lucy's confusion over why they outed Xena. Rob talks about how Akemi manipulates Xena into acting "as the second in her suicide." And then says, Rob: "I was very concerned that I was showing a 17 year old killing herself and Xena chopping her head off that, um, there would be some sort of backlash against this. But, um, it was Xena's head coming off that caused the backlash." (Which is very true-I heard absolutely no horror over Xena having beheaded Akemi-but I suspect that most of us have heard about this Bushido/samurai practice of asking friends or loved ones to make their seppuku easier so their death is quicker and they don't disgrace themselves by dying badly. So it appears that most of us understood what was going on there-or at least for most of us, we understand a Western explanation of it--probably from old Shogun reruns) And later during this same scene, after Xena cuts off Akemi's head, Lucy indicates she had another problem with her "Xena loves Akemi" take. L: "My concern was that we had established enough of a love relationship in so short a period of time so that...to justify Xena cutting her head off." Again, I think it's very clear that Lucy thinks the script is written to show Xena in love with Akemi. Even though Lucy is having problems with the idea of outing Xena and also seems to be saying here that she doesn't think it was written well enough to establish that Xena was in love with this young woman. But even so, she's convinced herself that Xena is outed in this ep because of her feelings for this young girl. Lucy can be very thick at times, apparently... (NOTE: She is still apparently the only one who thinks this script outed Xena-Renee doesn't change at any time in the commentary from her initial take that she is still convinced they are friends and they should be acted "straight". Rob is mute on this point.) When I saw Lucy on Conan saying about FIN, "I said to my husband, you OUTED my character", I felt the same thing in the way she said it and the way she then fell silent after saying it. AND the way she said, "And why did we have to do that?" She said she wanted to keep it the way it was, that Xena being gay or not gay didn't matter. That she never played the character that way, not one way or the other. Of course the minute she said, "He OUTED my character", the lists were abuzz with "Lucy is a sub-text fan! She's on OUR side!" And that wasn't what she said there either. I have no doubt that Lucy IS a sub-text fan. But from watching the show and listening to her interviews, I also have no doubt that she's also a Xena/Ares fan. And a Xena gets hot over hot guys fan. And a Xena loves some good though manipulative women who can teach her things and also gets emotionally involved with some evil women who can teach her things fan. Later, after they watch Xena in Higuchi drunkenly setting the fire that killed 40,000 people, Rob suddenly asks, Rob: "Renee-Is Xena guilty?" R: "Yeess, I mean she did it. Even though...uh...she wasn't' conscious of what the...what the um...effect was that she was having. But...um.. L: (Joking voice) "Yes, she was woefully negligent." R: "But yes, she... Lucy interrupts again. L: "Endangerment...of a population." R: "I mean all those people died because of..." Rob: "Her." R: "Her acting out, yeah." Long pause Lucy (in haughty fakey voice) "Yes, she's a very flawed hero. And none of us realized how flawed until..." R: "The last episode." Renee and Lucy both laugh. Lucy (in sing-song voice) "Didn't realize how gay she was, didn't realize how..." (voice breaks off as Lucy and Renee laugh. Again an acknowledgement that Lucy saw Xena in this ep as different than she was in other eps. Not an acknowledgement that Xena's always been gay and forced to stay in the closet. Not at all. Someone wrote a poem on the Xenaverse list many years ago that had a stanza that went, "Are they straight tonight, or are they gay tonight?" I always thought that caught this show so well. And I think many of the people who brought this show to us would recognize their efforts in it. I give Rob a great deal of credit. Most producers would (and have) run away screaming into wild denial at the first hint of "Your lead character is gay!". Rob accepted that interpretation as being fully as valid as a straight interpretation. And scripted scenes and dialogue that supported it. While still scripting scenes and dialogue that supported the mystical friendship bond also. I love that about this show. And I think Lucy did too. And that's why she's talking about Rob outing her character at the end-she doesn't really understand why he did that. In her view at least. Or rather, in my interpretation of her view at least. You know, I have a friend who has never seen the subtext and who can't figure out why people consider the grrls more than friends. (She's straight and she's not on line-I know a number of straight people who are not online who were stunned when I first mentioned the subtext to them.) But after seeing FIN, my friend said, "For the first time ever, I could see where you might think they're gay". What a great tribute to Lucy's acting. KT - ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/CuMolB/TM - ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> WHOOSH! The Journal of the International Association of XENA Studies. A monthly look into the Xenaverse since 1996. http://whoosh.org ***** Subscribe: whoosh-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: whoosh-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 01:44:07 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" On Wednesday 03 July 2002 22:32, KTL wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > ARRRRGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I can't STAND it anymore! > Oooh, another meaty KT post to get my teeth into! ;-) > I usually just lurk on this list (although I have written privately to > those folks whose posts I enjoy on here) but I just gotta get involved > this time. I have been following along on this thread. What is so > interesting to me is that this whole thread has developed as a response to > someone's initial extrapolation of what Lucy said in the DVD. I've seen > this happen before many times in the Xenaverse. This thread is a textbook > example of how things steamroll from what starts off as one fan's > interpretation. Meanwhile on the Whoosh list, everyone's happily discussing what great episodes The Debts are under the now-entirely-irrelevant heading of "Worst Xena Episodes". Mailing list threads are a classic example of how things stray unrecognisably from their origins. > I HAVE the DVD. This is exactly (or at least as close as I can transcribe > it) what they say: > A transcript! At last! :) (snips transcript :) > > What this exchange made ME wonder was why Lucy thinks this ep is any more > overt than many others of the same tone. I mean, I thought about the Debt, > where we see Xena in a former relationship with a woman and in Destiny > where we meet M'Lila. Why, if Lucy didn't think those eps outed Xena as > explicitly gay, does she think FIN does? Possibly (I've said this before) she didn't sit down to seriously watch those eps whereas in the case of FIN, she did. > After listening to the entire commentary the only thing I could come up > with to figure out why Lucy might feel this ep is different, was that she > could not figure out what Xena got from being with Akemi. Lao Ma and > M'Lila had things she wanted to learn. They were mentors for her, they had > skills that she wanted to claim for herself. They also both saved her neck. ;-) > > But what does Akemi know that Xena doesn't? What skill or power or ability > does Akemi have that Xena can get from being with her? I suspect from what > Lucy says in the commentary that she couldn't come up with anything to > explain that. And actors need to know what the characters are thinking and > why they feel the way they do before they can portray it. So it occurred > to me that it was possible that Lucy decided the only thing Xena saw in > Akemi was that she was a beautiful young woman and Xena was sexually > attracted to her. And so Lucy apparently read this last script as > definitely declaring Xena as feeling sexual love for Akemi, unlike those > other women in Xena's life, and therefore outing her. > > I don't fully understand this possible reasoning, since the motivation of > holding the girl for ransom was the reason the story gave for them being > together. But I just can't figure out any other reason for Lucy thinking > this ep was any more subtextually overt than many others. Though, the ransom was almost lost sight of during most of Xena's journey with Akemi. It faded into the background. So it wasn't present as a driving force during all the scenes Xena had interacting with Akemi, and presumably therefore not prominent to LL as a motive. Whereas their personal interaction and affection was prominent. > And later during this same scene, after Xena cuts off Akemi's head, Lucy > indicates she had another problem with her "Xena loves Akemi" take. > L: "My concern was that we had established enough of a love relationship > in so short a period of time so that...to justify Xena cutting her head > off." If ransom was Xena's only motivation, why would she bother to assist Akemi's suicide and later take her ashes for burial? And why was she so cut up about Akemi's death? The only explanation is that she had, at least, either considerable affection or considerable respect for Akemi. So I tend to agree with LL on that. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:50:57 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Hello and stuff >A year? I was hoping your Season 6 transcripts would be up soon, >along >with your earlier season transcripts. Oh sorry. The GUILD will take a year to be up. I will be making a quick, crappy site to put the transcripts on until the Guild is ready so that people can at least still access them. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:17:32 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" In a message dated 7/3/2002 5:33:48 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Again, I think it's very clear that Lucy thinks the script is written to > show Xena in love with Akemi. Even though Lucy is having problems with the > idea of outing Xena and also seems to be saying here that she doesn't > think it was written well enough to establish that Xena was in love with > this young woman. But even so, she's convinced herself that Xena is outed > in this ep because of her feelings for this young girl. Lucy can be very > thick at times, apparently... > OK, this may clear something up for me. I'd wondered if Lucy's new "take" was partly from finally getting to watch a key ep like FIN in its entirety, after the show was over and she could look at it with more distance. She'd said before that she rarely watched completed eps, so mostly remembered nonsequential pieces. But it sounds from your excerpts as if she responded as she did as she was preparing for FIN. I can understand her searching for why Akemi was so important to her. (She must not've read Rob's comments in Chakram about Xena's affinity for young women who reminded her of her own lost youth.) Akemi says something mysterious about knowing about Xena and knowing Xena would love her, even before she met Xena. Okaaaay. But at least we see a rescuer/teacher aspect with Akemi. To me, that woman Alti offered Xena, in Sin Trade, was far more of a sexual object than Akemi. Whatever "friendship" she developed with Xena must've happened in two seconds which we certainly didn't see. Maybe Lucy wondered what was up with that too, but just played it as best she could. Maybe it was such a small piece of the puzzle that she just forgot or didn't worry about it. Who knows? Methinks Rob's ideas about Xena's attraction to "innocent" young women was a bit muddled. It's quite a thin line to walk, once you've got the subtext angle. If Lucy played Xena as an "omni" sexual being, then I can see her approaching other characters on a per-person basis. But even then, she needs to know why she's attracted to them -- e.g., power, admiration, "connectedness," pure lust. Maybe she could figure that out with other characters, but was totally confused by what Xena was supposed to see in Akemi (as was I). The only explanation that seems to make sense to her is that Xena was attracted simply because Xena was gay all along. No wonder she thought Rob had some 'splaining to do. Heh, if he can. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:47:47 -0400 From: mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" fascinating discussion. wish cld post more. At 03:17 PM 7/3/2002 -0400, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >Methinks Rob's ideas about Xena's attraction to "innocent" young women was a >bit muddled. It's quite a thin line to walk, once you've got the subtext >angle. If Lucy played Xena as an "omni" sexual being, then I can see her >approaching other characters on a per-person basis. But even then, she needs >to know why she's attracted to them -- e.g., power, admiration, >"connectedness," pure lust. absolutely and lesbian or no, i can't see her getting in heat over akemi & there certainly wasn't any other draw. > Maybe she could figure that out with other >characters, but was totally confused by what Xena was supposed to see in >Akemi (as was I). ayup. > The only explanation that seems to make sense to her is >that Xena was attracted simply because Xena was gay all along. No wonder >she thought Rob had some 'splaining to do. Heh, if he can. but that's *not* an explanation even if xena *were* a lesbian, which as i've said about 10,000 times is a matter of self-identification more than behavior and ergo wasn't relevant to the xenaversal times (envision broad sweep of the hand covering hundreds of years but excluding the present for the moment) when "lesbians" didn't exist except geographically , one would still expect xena to show normal human sense. even if she were "lesbian," that doesn't explain her choice of akemi. what's being lesbian got to do with it? akemi just isn't somebody by whom xena's heart would be broken. sexual orientation hasn't a thing to do with and doesn't explain anything. rob wanted japa. he just made up anime akemi as a way to get to japa so he could play around. imo, there's no defense for xena's relationship with akemi & i'd bet my bottom dollar that if they weren't filming the season ending, lucy would've balked a bit. trouper that she is, she did her best. what was it she said during "the horde", something to the effect that xena's allowed to be wrong but not stupid? akemi was stupid and out of character even for young xena. of course, xena's choice of gab was a little odd too, but at least we got to see it develop into something and not just spring fullblown like athena (or whoever it was) from zeus' head spouting haiku. my word. i can't believe i posted. ha! nice to visit. sorry it's a bit vague. i'm a bit vague. ttfn, md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:24:05 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: X, G, and "Knowing" In a message dated 7/3/02 2:47:16 PM Central Daylight Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: At 03:17 PM 7/3/2002 -0400, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >Methinks Rob's ideas about Xena's attraction to "innocent" young women was a >bit muddled. It's quite a thin line to walk, once you've got the subtext >angle. If Lucy played Xena as an "omni" sexual being, then I can see her >approaching other characters on a per-person basis. But even then, she needs >to know why she's attracted to them -- e.g., power, admiration, >"connectedness," pure lust. absolutely and lesbian or no, i can't see her getting in heat over akemi & there certainly wasn't any other draw.>> If I tried real hard, I could see young Xena *possibly* intrigued with Akemi's obvious worship of her and childlike openness to her. That's at least in line with Tapert's comments about Xena missing that innocent part of herself and seeking it in others. Still, a huge stretch, particularly for those who haven't read some of his original ideas about Xena. > The only explanation that seems to make sense to her is >that Xena was attracted simply because Xena was gay all along. No wonder >she thought Rob had some 'splaining to do. Heh, if he can. but that's *not* an explanation even if xena *were* a lesbian>> Agreed. I was simply trying to understand where Lucy was coming from. Her response may be colored by current notions and the subtext debate. Even then, she still seems puzzled that even physical attraction could be a basis for the quickie relationship (whatever it was) that developed with Akemi. << rob wanted japa. he just made up anime akemi as a way to get to japa so he could play around. imo, there's no defense for xena's relationship with akemi & i'd bet my bottom dollar that if they weren't filming the season ending, lucy would've balked a bit. trouper that she is, she did her best. what was it she said during "the horde", something to the effect that xena's allowed to be wrong but not stupid? akemi was stupid and out of character even for young xena.>> Yep, I think he wanted to reprise the X&G theme that he started with and tried to dabble with other characters -- ineffectively, to me. It was too much to do in too little time. Frankly, I basically ignored Akemi, except as the "anime" plot device you mention. Young Xena was indeed a bit naive (if not stupid) when it came to dealing with folks like Caesar and Alti. But it was very clear what they had that she wanted and why she would be attracted to them on whatever level. I couldn't see enough in Akemi to understand why mature Xena would respond to the same degree as she did with the infinitely superior Lao Ma. <> Gab had spunk from the very beginning. I bet her defense of her folks reminded Xena of her younger self. I wasn't too keen on her until near the third season, but at least she combined her openness with an intelligence, feistiness, creativity, and idealism that went beyond quoting a few lines of poetry. She asserted -- rather than insinuated -- herself into Xena's life. And I believe the mature Xena could see that Gabrielle wanted nothing from her but a companion to see and learn about the world from. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #181 **************************************