From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #175 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, June 28 2002 Volume 02 : Number 175 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Varia [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Varia [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Varia [Lynn W Ribaud ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Varia [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD [meredith ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Varia [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:27:32 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, cr wrote: > Oddly enough, I thought Ghost-killer looked the part but his accent seemed > the most questionable of the lot (other than the Aussie general). Strange. - --*Ummmm*....could be because you're not used to a *genuine* Japanese accent. ;P *Hollyweird* will do that to ya. ;) Besides the Aussie/pseudo-Japanese general, I found Yodoshi's accent the most disconcerting. ;( It was clearly Kiwi, and not Japanese (or the supposedly "neutral" American the show was striving for). > Anyway, Caesar wasn't Roman (or even Italian) and Xena wasn't Greek, and > Cleopatra wasn't Egyptian (or Macedonian). - --Yep, but I can only lobby for one group at a time. ;) [BG] And it's also up to those groups to speak up for themselves. ;P But then are you saying that you would accept a non-black person to play Othello? Or Martin Luther King? Or a non-Irish person to play a role in a drama about the IRA? > Yep, and what about all those assorted Greek / Roman / Arabian / Mesopotamian > / Siberian villains and Amazons who were played by Maoris and Pacific > Islanders? > > Surely if one accepts them > (and the show would be unwatchable if one doesn't!) it's a little bit > inconsistent to balk at RenPics' choice of 'Orientals'. - --I think I mentioned earlier that the extras didn't count to me, that it was more important IMO to have equity in the speaking roles. ;P Besides, I'd obviously like to have my cake and eat it too. ;) If the "ambiguity" is in favor of minorities, I'm not going to complain. I see it as the actor's version of Affirmative Action. ;P Like I said, for *years* Hollyweird has had Caucasian actors playing non-Caucasian roles (Al Jolson and black face comes to mind immediately, besides Charlie Chan). The _easy_ way out is to have Caucasian actors play non-Caucasian roles. I'm saying, let's do it the _hard_ way, get the *ethnically-authentic* people in the roles, at the same expense as you're getting the Caucasian actors. Like I said, they flew Kathryn Morris in for Najara, Jackie Kim in for Lao Ma. They could've/should've done it for FIN, since it was the *series finale*, after all, IMO. > I don't think LL regards the subtext as very important one way or the other, > IMO. I think you're reading too much into her comments. Of *course* she > > being explicit. Like the end of You Are There for example. And in FIN (in > her opinion) they showed it explicitly. Doesn't mean the subtext struck her > like some revelation. - --I agree that LL doesn't put much stock by the subtext. That isn't what my reaction was about. I was commenting on the fact that only in FIN did she find it *obvious*. My question was, why did she find it obvious only there/then?? Why wasn't she aware of those other moments in the previous 6 years?? And it did strike her as some revelation, as she said, on the Tonight Show (with Jon Lovick as the other guest) after the series' end. Remember when she came out and said when she watched FIN with RTapert, she turned to her husband in surprise/dismay and said, "You _outed_ my character!"? Leno questioned her about it the much the same way I am now ("you didn't know that before??", etc.). Then on Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:46:16 -0400,"Cheryl Ande" jumped in: >As for Lucy saying she didn't get the subtext - I don't remember her or >Renee saying that. The actresses know there is subtext I don't think >they were that oblivious . - --I'm too lazy to go back to the DVD now ;( , but I remember as the boat scene was coming up for discussion, and LL's discussion of Akemi started, she said something like, "This is the first time I realized that my character was being outed" or something like that. She then went on to discuss how she and ROC always played the characters as good friends, and let the subtext take care of itself (or something like that), but this is the first time she felt X was being called "gay" by the writers. >Per Renee comments that she was playing it "straight". I got the >impression that it didn't have anything to do with subtext at all. What >I thought she meant was that she was playing the emotions in a straight >forward manner. - --I agree to an extent. Since LL's discussion of being gay came first on the DVD, I think ROC's comments addressed both issues, both of jealousy as a lover, and jealousy as a friend. By "straight" I think ROC meant both straightforward as in friendship, but also _not_ as a lover, IMO. Just MO, ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:26:23 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Varia On Friday 28 June 2002 06:30, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/27/02 3:31:54 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I wonder, if Varia had started to swing her sword at Xena, whether Ares > might > not have zapped it out of her hands. Would he have let Varia kill his > favourite mortal? >> > > I can't recall a time when Ares interceded for Xena, except when it > involved himself or his family. No, I think part of the thrill was seeing > Xena manage to escape seemingly impossible situations. He had enormous > faith in her instincts, as well as physical abilities and brains -- even > when he hadn't a clue about what she was thinking. If she'd let Varia kill > her, I think he would've chalked it up to her having finally grown too soft > to be the warrior he admired so much. > Very possibly. And there's always a chance that if Varia had swung, Xena would've uncorked some move to block her. I honestly don't know which way Ares would have reacted. I'm not sure if there was any previous occasion when Xena was under threat from third parties and he was watching (except of course when other gods were threatening her). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:06:47 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Varia On Friday 28 June 2002 01:18, Lynn W Ribaud wrote: > > > > I was musing on that. And I think maybe there's a tendency in classical > > legends for things to end. Camelot ended in a huge battle of good vs > > evil. The Norse gods had their gotterdammerung (or something like that, > > I'm hazy on that mythology). Even the Robin Hood stories, IIRC, ended > > with his death. > > I believe you mean "Ragnarok", and don't quote my spelling... > Umm, yes, Ragnarok (spelling correct AFAIK) was the term used in the Herc episodes. I think the Wagnerian version used Gotterdammerung. But I'm fairly ignorant of all this so I could well be wrong - would somebody who knows like to fill me in? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:40:32 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD On Friday 28 June 2002 18:27, Jackie M. Young wrote: > On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, cr wrote: > > Oddly enough, I thought Ghost-killer looked the part but his accent > > seemed the most questionable of the lot (other than the Aussie general). > > Strange. > > --*Ummmm*....could be because you're not used to a *genuine* Japanese > accent. ;P *Hollyweird* will do that to ya. ;) > > Besides the Aussie/pseudo-Japanese general, I found Yodoshi's accent the > most disconcerting. ;( It was clearly Kiwi, and not Japanese (or the > supposedly "neutral" American the show was striving for). Hmm, I didn't find Yodoshi disconcerting at all. I'd ask why Kiwi should be any more incongruous in a 'Japanese' than American, but for the fact that the 'general' was indeed disconcerting. I guess it's a matter of how strong the accent is and what we're expecting. > > Anyway, Caesar wasn't Roman (or even Italian) and Xena wasn't Greek, and > > Cleopatra wasn't Egyptian (or Macedonian). > > --Yep, but I can only lobby for one group at a time. ;) [BG] And it's > also up to those groups to speak up for themselves. ;P > > But then are you saying that you would accept a non-black person to play > Othello? Or Martin Luther King? Or a non-Irish person to play a role in > a drama about the IRA? Certainly! In fact a non-Irish person might be better than those terrible fake Hollywood Irish accents (Tamara Gorski / Morrigan springs to mind. Other than the accent, I rather like Morrigan). But then, what about all the non-Jewish Jesuses we've had over the years? It's a matter of credibility, really. Possibly a white playing Martin Luther King would be stretching things too far. On the other hand, in Xena, they had first Gina Torres, then Josephine Davison, playing Cleopatra (who was Macedonian - Greek, IIRC). And I could quite happily accept both of them - in fact I'm much more worried by the YAXI attendant on the fact that Cleo was played by two different people than by the ethnicity of them. I can also quite happily believe characters like Marcus or Cecrops who happened to be black and which fact occasioned no comment at all by any character in the episode - which surely would have been different in 'reality'. (Cecrops, a prominent *black* citizen of Athens? How likely is that?) > > Yep, and what about all those assorted Greek / Roman / Arabian / > > Mesopotamian / Siberian villains and Amazons who were played by Maoris > > and Pacific Islanders? > > > > Surely if one accepts them > > (and the show would be unwatchable if one doesn't!) it's a little bit > > inconsistent to balk at RenPics' choice of 'Orientals'. > > --I think I mentioned earlier that the extras didn't count to me, that it > was more important IMO to have equity in the speaking roles. ;P Equity be blowed, to me it's a matter of credibility only. It's Renpics job to be convincing. So I don't care where they got their actors from, so long as they suited the part. And it certainly wasn't just extras who were the 'wrong' race. Borias comes to mind. Also Nebula (and Cleo as I said). Marcus, Cecrops. Having said that, I applaud that they did give minority actors parts that they could easily have given to 'white' actors. Like Marcus, Cecrops, and M'Lila. And Oi-Lan (Lucy Liu) in Herc and Olan in Amazon High. (I'm only mentioning imported actors with prominent roles here). > Besides, I'd obviously like to have my cake and eat it too. ;) If the > "ambiguity" is in favor of minorities, I'm not going to complain. I see > it as the actor's version of Affirmative Action. ;P > > Like I said, for *years* Hollyweird has had Caucasian actors playing > non-Caucasian roles (Al Jolson and black face comes to mind immediately, > besides Charlie Chan). The _easy_ way out is to have Caucasian actors > play non-Caucasian roles. I'm saying, let's do it the _hard_ way, get the > *ethnically-authentic* people in the roles, at the same expense as you're > getting the Caucasian actors. Like I said, they flew Kathryn Morris in > for Najara, Jackie Kim in for Lao Ma. They could've/should've done it for > FIN, since it was the *series finale*, after all, IMO. Funny, half the people who want to nitpick FIN say "they should have made a special effort since it was the series finale". But why? Generally speaking, they imported an average of _one_ special guest star per episode. (That's my guesstimate, anyone want to do the statistics? ;) In FIN, they imported (I assume) Harukata. They also brought a number of 'Orientals' from Australia, I think. That was the same expense (to adopt your point) as they would have spent on guest stars from anywhere. But then they spent a lot more than the average ep on the whole production, on extras, on special effects, and yes, on the cast. There had to be a limit somewhere. Besides, if they'd imported Japanese-Americans as you suggested before, presumably they'd have American accents which are just as un-authentic as the cast they did use. > > I don't think LL regards the subtext as very important one way or the > > other, IMO. I think you're reading too much into her comments. Of > > *course* she > > > > being explicit. Like the end of You Are There for example. And in FIN > > (in her opinion) they showed it explicitly. Doesn't mean the subtext > > struck her like some revelation. > > --I agree that LL doesn't put much stock by the subtext. That isn't what > my reaction was about. I was commenting on the fact that only in FIN did > she find it *obvious*. My question was, why did she find it obvious only > there/then?? Why wasn't she aware of those other moments in the previous > 6 years?? Possibly because the FIN DVD was the first such ep she sat down to view in company. These things strike different people differently. I expect if I compiled a list of 'obvious out subtext moments' my list would differ very much from yours, since it's so much a matter of interpretation. Of course LL was aware of some of those moments, having acted them, but in many cases she would not be aware of exactly how they looked on screen. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:06:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Lynn W Ribaud Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Varia On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, cr wrote: > > I believe you mean "Ragnarok", and don't quote my spelling... > > > > Umm, yes, Ragnarok (spelling correct AFAIK) was the term used in the Herc > episodes. I think the Wagnerian version used Gotterdammerung. But I'm > fairly ignorant of all this so I could well be wrong - would somebody who > knows like to fill me in? As Meredith has said, Ragnarok was the version of the Eddas. Unfortunately, before these were recorded (by Snorri, as I recall...), Christianity had arrived and bent the godly eschatology all out of recognition. We don't really know what the original was. As for Wagner -- he used a mish-mash of the Volsungasaga and the Niebelungenlied, and a fair bit of invention of his own. Spelling not guaranteed! Lynn Lynn Ribaud, Local Contact X3A Beamline, National Synchrotron Light Source, Brookhaven National Lab ribaud@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:12:03 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Varia In a message dated 06/28/2002 3:19:30 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << 'm not sure if there was any previous occasion when Xena was under threat from third parties and he was watching (except of course when other gods were threatening her). >> I figured he tuned in on Xena whenever he could -- especially is she was fighting somebody. But, you're right, the only instances I can think of involved him or his family trying to get to her in some way. Wonder if he was on vacation when her men put her through the gauntlet. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:16:56 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, cr wrote: > Hmm, I didn't find Yodoshi disconcerting at all. I'd ask why Kiwi should > be any more incongruous in a 'Japanese' than American, but for the fact that > the 'general' was indeed disconcerting. I guess it's a matter of how strong > the accent is and what we're expecting. - --The "standard", so to speak, that RenPics established, was that an American accent was to be used for an American show marketed primarily to American audiences. This was clearly the "standard" when they required the Kiwi principals (LL, KSmith, MHurst) to speak with an American accent. All I'm asking is that they be *consistent* (I know, a "toughie" for RenPics ;P ). Either keep the American "standard" that they set at the start, or use an accent that's ethnically authentic. I *loved* the fact that Jackie Kim had an American accent rather than a Chinese one for Lao Ma. It didn't "stereotype" her role. > > But then are you saying that you would accept a non-black person to play > > Othello? Or Martin Luther King? Or a non-Irish person to play a role in > > a drama about the IRA? > > Certainly! > > In fact a non-Irish person might be better than those terrible fake Hollywood > Irish accents (Tamara Gorski / Morrigan springs to mind. Other than the > accent, I rather like Morrigan). - --Now you're being *stubborn*, Thel. ;P IMO, in a drama where the character's *ethnicity* is central to the role, it would be far better to choose an actor of that ethnicity to play it. Also, the assumption is, a person of that ethnicity would probably be better able to do an accent of *origin* rather than *imitation*, correct (though this is not always the case, especially in mine ;P )?? I.e., it was much better that Denzel Washington played Malcolm X, rather than, say, Brad Pitt or Ben Affleck, IMO. Another example is, there are auditions here locally for someone to play Patsy Cline. Would it be appropriate for someone of my ethincity (Chinese American) to audition? Would it be likely that the Patsy Cline estate would want me to represent her? I have auditioned before for roles that were clearly Caucasian (Dancing at Lughnasah [sp?] ), if only because the *characters* were interesting, but with the knowledge that I'd have very little chance of getting the role, and that it might not even be ethnically appropriate that I do. OTOH, with a play as *universal* as Romeo and Juliet, and with our local population as mixed as it is, we've had many productions of a color-blind nature produced here. But it probably wouldn't go over very well for worldwide distribution as a movie with two Japanese actors playing Romeo and Juliet (even though John Leguezamo [sp?], a Hispanic, played one of the cousins in the DeCapprio movie). > But then, what about all the non-Jewish Jesuses we've had over the years? - --Why didn't someone from the Jewish League complain?? > It's a matter of credibility, really. Possibly a white playing Martin > Luther King would be stretching things too far. - --Yes, and "credibility" is in the eye of the beholder. In my POV, I'm the beholder, and from my experience with Asians of many types, the actors playing Japanese in FIN were not credible (except for the ghost killer). All I'm saying is, there should've been more of an effort on the part of RenPics to rectify this, IMO. > On the other hand, in > Xena, they had first Gina Torres, then Josephine Davison, playing Cleopatra > (who was Macedonian - Greek, IIRC). And I could quite happily accept both - --Again, a matter of experience. I don't have much experience with Egyptians or Macedonians, so wasn't ready to lobby on their behalf. However, I was aware in the back of my mind that TPTB were playing fast and loose with their casting in that case. Besides, the point could be made that, like Jesus, Cleopatra has become somewhat of a "mythical" figure, mixed with story and history, so race plays less of a prominent role in that case. > I can also quite happily believe characters like Marcus or Cecrops who > happened to be black and which fact occasioned no comment at all by any > character in the episode - which surely would have been different in > 'reality'. (Cecrops, a prominent *black* citizen of Athens? How likely is > that?) - --And yet Shakespeare wrote about a prominent black Moor in Othello, and a *foreigner* with power, nonetheless. And I saw Denzel Washington play the role of the Prince in Much Ado directed by Kenneth Braghnagh [sp?] and only *briefly* blinked an eye in askance, he was so good (yet the factor of believability was still at the back of my mind throughout). Again, mixing history and myth gives us more latitude, IMO. I don't think FIN achieved that level of prominence in characters yet, IMO. > Equity be blowed, to me it's a matter of credibility only. It's Renpics job > to be convincing. So I don't care where they got their actors from, so long > as they suited the part. - --I respectfully disagree. In a show that celebrates *gender equity*, *racial equity* should also be paid attention to. Especially in this day and age of being "PC", to ignore that would be very "un-PC". And, as I stated earlier, it wasn't credible to me, and that's the bottom line. If it wasn't credible to me, it's possible it wasn't credible to others. If it was credible to you, that's fine. But you possibly might not have had as much experience with Asians as I or others have had, so it mattered less to you. We all base our reactions/opinions on our past experiences. I agree with BD Wong when he lobbied his complaint against the casting of the Engineer in Miss Saigon on Broadway. Since the part was of a part-Asian, is should've gone to someone of that ethnicity, not to Jonathan Pryce who could do the job, but who was not *authentic*. > Having said that, I applaud that they did give minority actors parts that > they could easily have given to 'white' actors. Like Marcus, Cecrops, and > M'Lila. And Oi-Lan (Lucy Liu) in Herc and Olan in Amazon High. > (I'm only mentioning imported actors with prominent roles here). - --Yes, and I have been very grateful for that, and have commented on that in the past. I'm not discounting their efforts in this area at all. I'm just saying more of an effort could've been made to cast real Japanese in a story about Japanese, set in Japan. > Generally speaking, they imported an average of _one_ special guest star per > episode. (That's my guesstimate, anyone want to do the statistics? ;) > In FIN, they imported (I assume) Harukata. They also brought a number of > 'Orientals' from Australia, I think. That was the same expense (to adopt > your point) as they would have spent on guest stars from anywhere. - --Point taken. As LeeD said, it was probably for this reason that they didn't import more authentic-looking/-speaking actors--$$. But then let's acknowledge that, and not make excuses that the actors were "credible" when they weren't. Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * "I LOVED forgetting it because it really made it * * so _live_ and so _immediate_...!!" * * --Barry Manilow, Manilow Talks CD, 1998 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:33:44 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD In a message dated 06/28/2002 1:28:24 AM Central Daylight Time, jyoung@lava.net writes: << --I agree that LL doesn't put much stock by the subtext. That isn't what my reaction was about. I was commenting on the fact that only in FIN did she find it *obvious*. My question was, why did she find it obvious only there/then?? Why wasn't she aware of those other moments in the previous 6 years?? >> And don't forget that, unlike Renee, Lucy said she rarely watched whole eps. It may be that -- with the series over -- watching FIN with the public/fans at that premier was the first time Lucy really sat back with a focus on the story, not just the production aspects. Up to that point, XWP was to her a lot of disconnected moments, vague recollections of certain events, and what was in her mind as to who Xena was and her relationship with Gabrielle. I'd bet she knew at the time that there were undercurrents in scenes between Xena and Lao Ma, Callisto and certainly Gabrielle, or between Gabrielle and Njara or Brunhilda (?). But FIN may have been the first time Lucy saw it from her own perspective played on screen in what could be an overt way. Mind you, there are still some who could see Xena's relationship with Akemi as mentor/savior/friend. I find it interesting that Lucy mentions Akemi as the "aha," rather than what to me are far more overt moments between Xena and Gabrielle in FIN. Methinks when Lucy sits down and watches eps as a more distant viewer, she'll think,"Oh, no wonder so many saw the subtext as maintext." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:40:37 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD Hi, I don't want this to stray too far from the topic of X:WP, but I'm feeling the need to play devil's advocate here. :) When casting actors to portray an historical figure, I agree that it's better to cast an actor of the same ethnicity as the historical figure. However, when you're talking about a work of fiction, I think there is leeway for a director to do whatever s/he wants, depending on what their particular artistic vision is. >I have auditioned before for roles that >were clearly Caucasian (Dancing at Lughnasah [sp?] ), if only because the >*characters* were interesting, but with the knowledge that I'd have very >little chance of getting the role, and that it might not even be >ethnically appropriate that I do. Why would it be inappropriate? I've been to many theatrical productions that employed "colorblind" casting, and I never noticed anyone complaining about the fact that Juliet was Asian instead of Italian, or the Stage Manager was African-American instead of a New England WASP. (Now, if the acting itself was bad, that's an entirely different story...) >But it probably wouldn't go over very well for >worldwide distribution as a movie with two Japanese actors playing Romeo >and Juliet (even though John Leguezamo [sp?], a Hispanic, played one of >the cousins in the DeCapprio movie). Why not? AFAIK, nobody bitched at Franco Zeffirelli's decision to cast an Argentine in the role of Juliet, and that's probably the most famous cinematic version of the play. The thing with Shakespeare is, the story can be adapted into pretty much any situation, nation, or period of history. (See last year's _0_ and _Scotland, PA_, and the aforementioned DiCaprio version of _Romeo and Juliet_.) This makes any kind of casting possible, and I daresay it's kind of become expected for theatrical productions of Shakespeare to push the envelope. Nobody wants to see a straight-ahead, white-bread, men-in-tights production any more. > > But then, what about all the non-Jewish Jesuses we've had over the years? > >--Why didn't someone from the Jewish League complain?? Probably because they couldn't give two hoots about a Christian story. >In my POV, I'm >the beholder, and from my experience with Asians of many types, the actors >playing Japanese in FIN were not credible (except for the ghost killer). >All I'm saying is, there should've been more of an effort on the part of >RenPics to rectify this, IMO. Do we know for sure that there wasn't? Maybe what they got was all they could get, based on who answered the casting call. >--Again, a matter of experience. I don't have much experience with >Egyptians or Macedonians, so wasn't ready to lobby on their behalf. >However, I was aware in the back of my mind that TPTB were playing fast >and loose with their casting in that case. I don't know about anyone else, but I thought it was very cool that RenPics cast someone like Gina Torres to play Cleopatra. She was a strikingly beautiful, believable Cleopatra, so why not? I mean, if we're really going to split hairs, we should also be protesting the casting of an Irish-American in the role of a Greek farmer girl. Mediterranean, ROC certainly ain't. >--I respectfully disagree. In a show that celebrates *gender equity*, >*racial equity* should also be paid attention to. Especially in this day >and age of being "PC", to ignore that would be very "un-PC". ... so giving a Maori, who is more than capable of turning in a credible performance a job should take a back seat to flying in a Japanese-American from L.A.? That doesn't sound very "PC" to me. >And, as I stated earlier, it wasn't credible to me, and that's the bottom >line. If it wasn't credible to me, it's possible it wasn't credible to >others. True. But it was credible to some ... so in the end it comes down to a case of "you say tomato". >I agree with BD Wong when he lobbied his complaint against the casting of >the Engineer in Miss Saigon on Broadway. Since the part was of a >part-Asian, is should've gone to someone of that ethnicity, not to >Jonathan Pryce who could do the job, but who was not *authentic*. So is the Tony Award that Pryce won for that role thus invalidated, despite the fact that as an actor he was able to be convincing to the audience? I think in many cases, it comes down to who auditions the best for the role, and that's it. If there is proof that an actor of the proper ethnicity was passed over in favor of an Anglo actor despite the fact that the ethnic actor auditioned better for the role, then yeah, show me the petition and I'll sign it. But if the director is "colorblind" and is committed to casting the best actors for the roles, and is successful in doing that, then I don't think there's anything to say. Now, I haven't mentioned FIN at all ... I do think that FIN did a better job of incorporating ethnic actors than, say, _The Debt_ and _Back In The Bottle_. I do think Tapert could maybe have gotten some better actors in some of the roles, regardless of their ethnicity -- but as I said above, it's entirely possible that he did the best he could with the acting pool he was given. ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 14:38:55 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Varia On Saturday 29 June 2002 11:12, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 06/28/2002 3:19:30 AM Central Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > << 'm not sure if > there was any previous occasion when Xena was under threat from third > parties > and he was watching (except of course when other gods were threatening > her). > > > I figured he tuned in on Xena whenever he could -- especially is she was > fighting somebody. I'd guess you're right there. He did have a 'thing' for her, didn't he? > But, you're right, the only instances I can think of > involved him or his family trying to get to her in some way. Wonder if he > was on vacation when her men put her through the gauntlet. Or when Caesar crucified her... several times. Or.... well, it would have been a different series if, every time Xena's life was under threat, her personal protector just zapped the opposition. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 14:13:52 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD On Saturday 29 June 2002 11:16, Jackie M. Young wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, cr wrote: > > Hmm, I didn't find Yodoshi disconcerting at all. I'd ask why Kiwi > > should be any more incongruous in a 'Japanese' than American, but for the > > fact that the 'general' was indeed disconcerting. I guess it's a matter > > of how strong the accent is and what we're expecting. > > --The "standard", so to speak, that RenPics established, was that an > American accent was to be used for an American show marketed primarily to > American audiences. This was clearly the "standard" when they required > the Kiwi principals (LL, KSmith, MHurst) to speak with an American accent. Not 'American', 'mid-Atlantic' I think. > All I'm asking is that they be *consistent* (I know, a "toughie" for > RenPics ;P ). Either keep the American "standard" that they set at the > start, or use an accent that's ethnically authentic. Well, with respect, that's not consistent, that's an exception. And I don't recall Renpics ever making such a rule, either officially or by implication. > > > But then are you saying that you would accept a non-black person to > > > play Othello? Or Martin Luther King? Or a non-Irish person to play a > > > role in a drama about the IRA? > > > > Certainly! > > > > In fact a non-Irish person might be better than those terrible fake > > Hollywood Irish accents (Tamara Gorski / Morrigan springs to mind. > > Other than the accent, I rather like Morrigan). > > --Now you're being *stubborn*, Thel. ;P No. In fact, Tamara Gorski is (I assume) non-Irish. But I absolutely don't care whether she or the others in the eps were Irish or not, so long as their accents were reasonably unobtrusive. Some of them were much too strong, IMO, and therefore sounded fake to me - including Tamara Gorski's. Not knocking her, it's a common Hollywood failing when it comes to 'Irish' I think. > IMO, in a drama where the > character's *ethnicity* is central to the role, it would be far better to > choose an actor of that ethnicity to play it. So, Xena should be Greek (or Bulgarian). Your argument has some merit, but I think the actor's ability is usually much more important than their ethnic origin. > OTOH, with a play as *universal* as Romeo and Juliet, and with our local > population as mixed as it is, we've had many productions of a color-blind > nature produced here. But it probably wouldn't go over very well for > worldwide distribution as a movie with two Japanese actors playing Romeo > and Juliet (even though John Leguezamo [sp?], a Hispanic, played one of > the cousins in the DeCapprio movie). I don't think it would matter. So long as (for the English-speaking market) the actors could speak English intelligibly. Many of these things translate quite easily - umm, wasn't 'Seven Samurai' quite happily translated into a Western? (Magnificent Seven). The plot remained the same. > > But then, what about all the non-Jewish Jesuses we've had over the years? > > --Why didn't someone from the Jewish League complain?? Probably because they're not Christians so don't care. I imagine blond Jesuses would rank rather low in their priorities. Anyway, then He might end up being played by a Palestinian > > It's a matter of credibility, really. Possibly a white playing Martin > > Luther King would be stretching things too far. > > --Yes, and "credibility" is in the eye of the beholder. In my POV, I'm > the beholder, and from my experience with Asians of many types, the actors > playing Japanese in FIN were not credible (except for the ghost killer). > All I'm saying is, there should've been more of an effort on the part of > RenPics to rectify this, IMO. Well, with all due respect, that's your particular interests coming to the fore. As you said. I get all wound up about One Against an Army because I like maps and the unnecessary geographical idiocies in that ep annoy me. And everyone else says 'duh?'. Same thing, IMO. > > On the other hand, in > > Xena, they had first Gina Torres, then Josephine Davison, playing > > Cleopatra (who was Macedonian - Greek, IIRC). And I could quite happily > > accept both > > --Again, a matter of experience. I don't have much experience with > Egyptians or Macedonians, so wasn't ready to lobby on their behalf. > However, I was aware in the back of my mind that TPTB were playing fast > and loose with their casting in that case. In *every* case, I think. Almost every character. Including Xena and Gabby. (Are there any blonde Greeks?) > > I can also quite happily believe characters like Marcus or Cecrops who > > happened to be black and which fact occasioned no comment at all by any > > character in the episode - which surely would have been different in > > 'reality'. (Cecrops, a prominent *black* citizen of Athens? How > > likely is that?) > > --And yet Shakespeare wrote about a prominent black Moor in Othello, and a > *foreigner* with power, nonetheless. If I recall correctly, his colour *was* the subject of comment in the play. > > Equity be blowed, to me it's a matter of credibility only. It's Renpics > > job to be convincing. So I don't care where they got their actors from, > > so long as they suited the part. > > --I respectfully disagree. In a show that celebrates *gender equity*, > *racial equity* should also be paid attention to. Especially in this day > and age of being "PC", to ignore that would be very "un-PC". Well, they were *not* going to import Greeks, Egyptians, Arabs, Indians, Romans (Italians?), Siberians, Chinese or Japanese wholesale when they could get local actors to fake it, convincingly or otherwise. It would have killed the budget, anyway. I don't see why Asian actors should have been the exception to that. > And, as I stated earlier, it wasn't credible to me, and that's the bottom > line. If it wasn't credible to me, it's possible it wasn't credible to > others. Many things in the show aren't credible, if you want to look at them closely. We all have our own special interests that make us unusually sensitive to some particular detail of the show. In my case it's geography and the ballistics (mechanics) of the fights - some of the stunts just look 'wrong' to me. Others look great. To require them to be authentic from every viewer's point of view would be impossible - financially and physically. > I'm just saying more of an effort could've been made to cast real Japanese > in a story about Japanese, set in Japan. Well, as I said - budget. > > Generally speaking, they imported an average of _one_ special guest star > > per episode. (That's my guesstimate, anyone want to do the statistics? > > ;) In FIN, they imported (I assume) Harukata. They also brought a > > number of 'Orientals' from Australia, I think. That was the same > > expense (to adopt your point) as they would have spent on guest stars > > from anywhere. > > --Point taken. As LeeD said, it was probably for this reason that they > didn't import more authentic-looking/-speaking actors--$$. But then let's > acknowledge that, and not make excuses that the actors were "credible" > when they weren't. Well, they *were* credible to me. With the sole exception of the general. That's not an excuse, that's a statement of fact. ;) I think maybe your view is coloured by the fact that you're used to American accents and Asian ones, so either sounds 'normal' to you. Just as American / English / Kiwi accents sound 'normal' to me, so long as they're not too obtrusive. And in any case, right throughout the entire series, the 'locals' of whatever country it was set in have really been Westerners in disguise, with a light seasoning of 'local colour' sprinkled on top. I'm not talking about the race of the actors now, I'm talking about the way the characters behave and react to things. To a native of the country they would seem totally fake. In that respect I wouldn't *expect* the actors in Friend in Need (or any other episode) to be truly authentic. How credible is a woman Samurai warrior anyway? How credible is a Greek warrior princess (or Gabby) leading an army of Amazons? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #175 **************************************