From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #173 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, June 27 2002 Volume 02 : Number 173 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Varia [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Varia [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN - DC DVD [cr ] [chakram-refugees] [Lilli Sprintz ] [chakram-refugees] Break a leg, Ren! [mirrordrum ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Varia [NZJester ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:01:26 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Varia In a message dated 6/25/2002 4:14:38 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > What I find far more disturbing was the way Varia ordered the Roman > prisoners > killed in Path of Vengeance. There was no need or excuse for that. OK, > so > it's the sort of thing that Evil Xena would do, but that was 'ten years ago', > > this is 'now' and I just can't accept that a leader who would order that > could have any redeeming qualities. From a villain I could accept it, but > Varia isn't supposed to be a villain. Now that (IMO) should render Varia > unfit to be Queen. I saw this as part of establishing Ares' negative influence, as TPTB tried to do with early Xena and Livia. Xena's point to both women was that -- in exchange for the supremacy they sought -- Ares would lead them down a path that had little to do with honor, defending Amazonia/Rome or even good war strategy. It was about blood for blood's sake. Still, it was their choice to follow him, in which case the blood would be their responsibility. Xena knew how hard it was to resist Ares, but had benefit of hindsight in understanding the consequences. Neither Livia nor Varia could see how he was affecting them, which is why Varia saw nothing wrong with killing the enemy however she could -- even if their hands were tied. In a sense, Xena helped Varia redeem her redeeming qualities in a few hours as opposed to the 10 it took Xena. I'm not saying TPTB portrayed all that sufficiently (especially considering the pains they took to diminish the power of gods), but I think that's why they had Varia do something so heinous. Maybe it was to emphasize that it was indeed a choice, not the inevitability Ares always wanted them to think, and that Varia -- like Xena -- had the strength to recognize her own need to believe him and resist the temptation to do so. Or not. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:16:02 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Wednesday 26 June 2002 10:26, Cheryl Ande wrote: > cr wrote: > > "Question - where did the Ewokazons come from? > Were they just the very junior Amazons who were left orphaned when Xena > killed all the leaders? " > > That's the impression I got. Otere was about 10 when Cyane and the others > were killed so I guess the others were those left orphaned by Xena or > various other catastrophies. I think that's very likely the answer. Of course, this leaves unanswered the question of where all the Amazons in other tribes come from. I guess one possible answer was in Hercules and The Amazon Women - that they raided a village full of men for the purpose of reproducing - except that in that episode, IIRC, Herc persuaded the two sides to get together and settle down. Good news for the 'battle of the sexes' but curtains for that Amazon tribe as they simply ceased to be Amazons. There was another answer in Prodigal Sister - the Amazons raided villages for girl-children. But that was a renegade tribe. And of course the original Amazon tribe, the Tretomlecs, were an ordinary heterosexual tribe all of whose men were killed in battle (Amazon High). So really, the question of how the 'regular' Amazon tribes kept up their population was never answered, I think. (Of course, historically, the original tribes called 'Amazons' by the Greeks were ordinary nomadic horsemen - umm, horsewomen? - horsepeople? ;) from the steppes, but the Greeks were so amazed to see women riding horses into battle that the menfolk were forgotten and the 'Amazon' legends sprang up). > "Actually, there must have been a lot of adult non-leader Amazons that Xena > didn't kill - what happened to them? " > > Xena did say that once she killed the leaders the tribe was attacked by > other enemies and destroyed. Perhaps other tribes took advatage of their > weekness or Alti finished them off. It's posssible that Xena killed the > warriors and the adults that were left couldn't defend the tribal lands. Ah, I'd forgotten that quote of Xena's (and Sin Trade my favourite episode! Shame on me! :( And well answered, Cheryl. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:07:13 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Varia On Wednesday 26 June 2002 17:01, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snip) [killing Roman prisoners] > > ...Varia isn't supposed to be a villain. Now that (IMO) should render > > Varia unfit to be Queen. > > I saw this as part of establishing Ares' negative influence, as TPTB tried > to do with early Xena and Livia. Xena's point to both women was that -- in > exchange for the supremacy they sought -- Ares would lead them down a path > that had little to do with honor, defending Amazonia/Rome or even good war > strategy. It was about blood for blood's sake. Still, it was their choice > to follow him, in which case the blood would be their responsibility. That's a valid point - about Ares, I mean. And I guess Evil Xena did a lot of her worst deeds under the influence of Alti or Ares. Maybe I can look a little more kindly on Varia (or at least a little bit less disapprovingly) now you've pointed that out. Thanks. > Xena knew how hard it was to resist Ares, but had benefit of hindsight in > understanding the consequences. Neither Livia nor Varia could see how he > was affecting them, which is why Varia saw nothing wrong with killing the > enemy however she could -- even if their hands were tied. In a sense, Xena > helped Varia redeem her redeeming qualities in a few hours as opposed to > the 10 it took Xena. I'm not saying TPTB portrayed all that sufficiently > (especially considering the pains they took to diminish the power of gods), > but I think that's why they had Varia do something so heinous. Maybe it > was to emphasize that it was indeed a choice, not the inevitability Ares > always wanted them to think, and that Varia -- like Xena -- had the > strength to recognize her own need to believe him and resist the temptation > to do so. Or not. > > -- Ife Interesting. And I'm sure you're right. (Howcome I always end up agreeing with you? ;) And as Ares said, 'it's what I do'. Actually, it's a little bit difficult to swallow Ares' involvement so soon after Xena did him a huge favour in You Are There - though he did point out in his own defense that Eve was no part of his plan and he wouldn't stop Xena rescuing her. Are we sure he didn't set the whole thing up just to see Xena in action? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:41:33 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Varia On Wednesday 26 June 2002 11:47, KLOSSNER9@aol.com wrote: > /Anyone get the irony of the closing words 'To a strong Amazon nation' - > with /just a handful of them standing around? Were they all that were > left? If so, that > /would be very sad. Also a YAXI considering the large numbers of Amazons > at /the start of Path of Vengeance.... their attrition rate can't have > been /high enough to account for that. Maybe they were just a war party > and /there were a lot more Amazons back in camp, or maybe that was all that > was /left of the Amazons. Actually, having just watched the episode again, I'm inclined to rethink what I said about the 'low attrition rate'. It was actually much higher than I remembered, and quite enough to account for the few left at the end, sadly. > In The Chakram (the fan club magazine) no. 16, at the end of page > 5 and beginning of p. 6, Renee O'Connor said of Helicon "This was > the extinction of the Amazon race. These were the last few Amazons > in the world." Assuming Renee knew what RT's intention was. I'm not saying she's wrong but I'd like to know whether that's 'official' or just Renee's own interpretation from the episode. But of course the Amazons weren't a 'race'. They weren't even a 'tribe' in the sense of a self-sustaining group of people (where did they get new Amazons from?) I suppose one could say they were more like a club or society (complete with initiation ceremonies). Xena helped revive the Siberian Amazons from a handful of kids. So the Amazons could have been built up again from the handful at the end of Helicon, needing only a sufficient number of oppressed / exploited / rebellious women around determined to lead their own lives. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:26:47 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN - DC DVD On Wednesday 26 June 2002 10:46, Cheryl Ande wrote: > I've been following some the conversation here so here is my two cents. > > Per Renee comments that she was playing it "straight". I got the > impression that it didn't have anything to do with subtext at all. What I > thought she meant was that she was playing the emotions in a straight > forward manner. Yes, that word does have two connotations. As in Miss Amphipolis - X: I want some straight answers. Miss Artiphys: Have *you* got the wrong girl. ;) As far as Renee's comment goes, the impression I get is the same as yours. That ROC played it straight without putting any 'extra' emotions or significance into it. Or (I suppose) what we might call 'spin'. > In other words when Gabby was sympathetic to Xena about > Akemi's death she was sincerely sympathetic to Xena and Renee didn't see > Gabby as having any other emotion that is. jealously or insecurities about > her relationship with Xena. Her reading of the script was straight in that > context - nothing to do with Gabrielle's sexual preference. Didn't they comment somewhere that bringing jealousy into it would have complicated the issue? Or something like that. There was a trace of jealousy when Xena said she'd taught Akemi the 'pinch', but they didn't make a lot out of it. > As for the commentary being too technical. I didn't find it so but I find > the process of film making really interesting. I was impressed with how > much technical knowledge LL had. I expected Rob and ROC to have this grasp > because they direct but I was impressed with Lucy. That gal knows her > craft. > That showed up, I think, in the 'making of FIN' doco that Sharon Delaney produced. Particularly in the scene by the wagon where Lucy was taking an active part in the direction of the scene. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:57:37 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] >>Cheryl and CR discussed >># >># >># >># >># >># >># >> >> Cheryl said, >>These episodes are some of my favorites of the series. It introduces a who[le] new tribe of Amazons >> Yes, I don't know if it was the series and the discussion on Chakram, but some time around then I remember reading on the web about the archaeology dig in Siberia that had found proof that women had indeed been warriors...being buried with a spear comes to mind, and it was a woman who had done that archaeology dig. >>I love the scruffy crew of young Amazons - they have a >>wonderful enthusiasm - I especially like the scene where Otere ponders if she now has Xena's power and Yakut promptly punches her in the nose to test the theory. >> Yes, they acted like.....youngsters, for lack of a better word. Not young children, but still an innocence about them that despite the violence and difficult way of life they had needed to learn, they played. CR said, [about Alti] >Yes, she was. A complete contrast to Callisto, too. > Ummm, not completely sure that is true. However, they both had a way of looking....I don't like to use the word "evil," just they had very different looks about them that both looked rather scarey. Callisto...and I have met people like her...just darn looked scarey, a wildness in the eyes and in the facial expression, rage that wanted to blow a fuse and you didn't want to be in the way as it happened. You don't want to get anywhere near somewhat like them. Although Callisto was obviously a genius, Alti had a hate expression related to power. Callisto, as she said herself, was about serious, diabolical revenge. Cheryl furthermore says, >>Alti slowly seduces Xena to her dark ways. First she practically serves Xena a nubile young girl,Anakin, on a plate. >> CR responds, >>I have always wondered why Anakin is so hostile to Xena - she blames Xena for killing her soul yet one can assume that hanging out with Alti is to healthy for your soul either. Did Alti manipulated Anakin into believing Xena had hurt her in some way? >> Yes, there is a missing piece here. Perhaps it is one of the episodes where more had been filmed that would have explained this, but the restrictions of a 46 minute episode for TV caused them to eliminate this part. And CA says, >>Finally and certainly we have Lucy's great performance as Xena and Young Xena. Xena is mesmerizing as the grieving Xena - stalking through the rain gathering the things she needs to visit Gabrielle in the land of the dead. >> The rain scene the show opened up with was so powerful. Xena riding face toward us through the rain, in obvious grief. The rain pouring down in buckets, seemed like a metaphor for the intense grief, and the pounding hoofs, of her anger. As if she were saying, "is there anywhere I can go, any possible way I can pound this grief out of me?" LS ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:47:26 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Varia cr wrote: "And on reflection I think Cyane, the northern Amazon, would have made a better Queen than Varia. (But then I'm biassed in favour of the northern Amazons... ever since Sin Trade ;)" Well she gets my vote too. You notice she was the most sensible of the Amazons and the steadiest. I also like to think that she was the daughter of the Xena's wannabe sidekick from Kindred Spirit (same actress). Also as a northern Amazon she probably would have asked Xena to the war leader with Gabby as queen legally. Why I say this is that those northern Amazons just seem to appreciate Xena more than the Southern Amazons. The trouble with Varia was that she was a good warrior but was just too immature to be queen. She made bad decisions: no one their right minds would think the guy in Helicon would keep his word. He hated the Amazons just as much as he hated Xena (which was obvious since he killed a whole slew of Amazons before he made the deal with Varia). As for the end of the Amazons. There must have been a few Amazons left back at the ranch you know young mothers, elders, craftspeople, kids. Of course if you belong to a society that only can reproduce during certain times of the year (Kindred Spirits) and apparently shuns the opposite sex the chances are you are going to become extinct. Note the lack of Shakers in today's world. They didn't believe in sexual relations and got new converts by adoption only - - they made great furniture but not many Shakers. Like the Amazons their strict code of conduct put an end to them. CherylA Yet Rob does have tendency to kill lots of people off which sort of makes since in a way. I think Xena really had as a sub-theme the end of the mythological world. We don't have centaurs, Amazons, or great warriors like Xena any more so Rob is telling us what happened to them. Not a happy story perhaps Rob is of a pessimistic mind set - maybe that's why he loves Lucy she appears to be an upbeat person maybe she's yin to his yang ;-) CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:59:35 -0400 From: mirrordrum Subject: [chakram-refugees] Break a leg, Ren! tomorrow's the big day. renee may not have pre-opening night jitters, but i surely do. wishing her well as she moves from battlin' bard to playing the bard on the boards. whew! i wouldn't want to do that "perfumes of arabia" speech for all the. . .uh perfumes of arabia. i hope she'll push the envelope. go for the burn. expand her horizons. but mostly, just have fun doing the work she loves. joy to all those who want to see her and get to do so. md--currently reveling in dench's lady m. WOW! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:41:59 +1200 From: NZJester Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Varia At 07:47 pm 25/06/2002 EDT, KLOSSNER9@aol.com wrote: >In The Chakram (the fan club magazine) no. 16, at the end of page >5 and beginning of p. 6, Renee O'Connor said of Helicon "This was >the extinction of the Amazon race. These were the last few Amazons >in the world." > >I have no doubt she is correct about Tapert's intentions. In a little more >than >the last two years of the series Tapert killed off Ephiny, Amarice, Cyrene, >Joxer, most of the gods, the Centaurs, the Amazons and Xena. He was >clearly determined to destroy the world he had created. Was he Determined to destroy the world he had created or to show just how violence destroys everything and as they said on the show the only way to stop the violence is to break the cycle - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Catch ya later NZJester - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #173 **************************************