From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #171 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, June 25 2002 Volume 02 : Number 171 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] UPDATE funny bits between Xena/Gab and Lucy/Renee [IfeRae@aol.co] [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:55:35 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD On Monday 24 June 2002 15:12, Cousin Liz wrote: > I thought I read somewhere a while ago that Lucy was not one to watch > a finished episode. Whether she never saw any of them, or only some, > I've no idea. And considering her love for comedy, maybe she only sat > and watched some comedies, which aren't high on the subtext meter. She > did, on the other hand, go to the screening of FIN. And in a setting > like that, maybe some light actually was shed for her on X&G's > relationship. Please don't take this as a flame or personally, but.... It seems to be a common idea amongst subtexters that people who don't 'see' the subtext are somehow blind or obtuse or unperceptive. Or don't 'understand' the X-G relationship. And, with all due respect, that's a delusion. Non-subtexers (and admittedly I'm generalising here) can spot an innuendo as quickly as the most devoted subtexter. It's just that they (the non-subtexters) aren't interested and couldn't care less. Or they actually prefer to interpret TPTB's deliberately ambiguous clues as just friends (or 'soulmates'). This post makes several implicit and (IMO) entirely unproven assumptions - first, that the 'subtext' view of the relationship is the only true belief, second, that LL was ignorant of the 'subtext' interpretation. And third, that LL could spend six years acting a 'soulmate' relationship with Gabrielle without seeing all the possible interpretations of what they were acting. I think that view is mildly insulting to LL, actually. She could hardly have read an Internet site or a mailing list post or attended a con (or a gay parade!) without being aware of the subtext. Because she (apparently) chose not to adopt the subtext view herself is surely her prerogative and no way is it an indication of ignorance. IMO. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:59:48 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN-DC DVD On Monday 24 June 2002 14:36, Jackie M. Young wrote: > Then Thel wrote: > >IIRC she said there weren't many Asian actors to choose from. But they > >did OK - Michelle Ang (Akemi) was excellent, Kao the warlord, > >Ghost-killer, Yodoshi, the monk, the sword-maker, and Yodoshi's stooge in > >the tea-house were all OK, IMO. It was only the general with the amazing > >Aussie accent who was mis-cast. > > --I respectfully disagree. ;P I didn't like Michelle Ang, mostly because > she was far too young and lacked the chemistry to do the sort of > manipulating called for in the storyline (she also didn't enunciate > enough); but more importantly, she wasn't Japanese. For such an important > role set in _Japan_, I would think that would be a key consideration. Well, I thought she was *excellent* in the role. And extremely convincing. And she had heaps of 'chemistry'. Just shows how opinions can differ. Anyway, Caesar wasn't Roman (or even Italian) and Xena wasn't Greek, and Cleopatra wasn't Egyptian (or Macedonian). > As I mentioned in an earlier post when FIN first aired, the only authentic > Japanese in the cast was the guy who played the ghost-killer. The rest > were either Chinese (the monk, the warlord, and Akemi), or Caucasian or > had a bad accent. The geisha with the bells, like LL said, was quite > good, but she didn't have any lines (and LL couldn't even remember her > name!). Oddly enough, I thought Ghost-killer looked the part but his accent seemed the most questionable of the lot (other than the Aussie general). Strange. > In the commentary, LL confirmed what RTapert had told me at the 2nd > Burbank Con, and that there was only a small pool of Asian actors in NZ > (another reason either to fly them in or shoot elsewhere where there's a > bigger pool). He said to my criticism that Grant McFarland (Ming Tzu) was > half-Malaysian or something, but to me that still doesn't mean he's > Chinese, which is what the role called for. Same as for Adrian Brown's > being half-Caucasian doesn't mean he's Japanese. Yep, and what about all those assorted Greek / Roman / Arabian / Mesopotamian / Siberian villains and Amazons who were played by Maoris and Pacific Islanders? And who all (surprise surprise) spoke English without the benefit of translator microbes or babel fish? Surely if one accepts them (and the show would be unwatchable if one doesn't!) it's a little bit inconsistent to balk at RenPics' choice of 'Orientals'. > Back to LeeD: > > I think it's in both of their career interests to not play up to the > > subtext too much. They don't want to be type cast in studios' alleged > > little minds. After all, they *are* currently unemployed after a 6-7 year > > gig. > > --Perhaps, but LL actually said she didn't _see_ the subtext until FIN > aired and thought that RobT had "outed" her character! I'd call that a > bit of "wearing blinders", IMO. ;P > > I'm still confused by what LL was doing all these years, since she claims > she and ROC only played the characters as good friends and would sometimes > just "spice it up" for the fans, but no more. But to _not_ actually see > what the fans were seeing, and then to *suddenly* see it, I dunno.....;P > But like Sharon said, LL's "loopy". ;P I don't think LL regards the subtext as very important one way or the other, IMO. I think you're reading too much into her comments. Of *course* she knew some fans were reading a lot into the 'subtext'. That absolutely didn't mean she had to agree. I think LL took the attitiude that you see what you want to see, and TPTB always quite deliberately stopped short of being explicit. Like the end of You Are There for example. And in FIN (in her opinion) they showed it explicitly. Doesn't mean the subtext struck her like some revelation. > But that's what made the DVD so interesting--that the stars could be > playing one motivation that neither one knew what the other was thinking, > but it still came off on-screen as plausible. And we, the audience, don't > know what they're *really* thinking, and we all see what we want. ;) I > guess my acting teacher was right, when he said "no one has to know what > you're thinking, but it has to be convincing". ;=) Now that I can agree with. Both comments. :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:30:15 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] UPDATE funny bits between Xena/Gab and Lucy/Renee In a message dated 6/19/02 6:43:59 PM Central Daylight Time, outback@creationent.com writes: << I'm getting some great stuff I'm going to list them on the fan club page so folks will know what's been found so far. >> I looked for the funny photos you mentioned in an earlier post, as well as the funny bits, on the fan club page, but couldn't find anything about that. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:53:07 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> # # # # # # # # Season 4 was the year we traveled to far off lands, learned about new religions and Xena gets some really good and really bad news about Gabrielle and the future. So we start the season off in a far off land, meet a Sameness and the soul rattling news is delivered - how appropriate. These episodes are some of my favorites of the series. It introduces a who new tribe of Amazons - the forest Amazons or the Russian Amazons - take your pick. I love the scruffy crew of young Amazons - they have a wonderful enthusiasm for blood letting, a real joy for battle, and they are smart enough to realize what a prize they have when they stumble upon Xena (they aren't too proud to learn from the best). Otere and Yakut are wonderful as the tribe's leaders and there is a nice chemistry between - I especially like the scene where Otere ponders if she now has Xena's power and Yakut promptly punches her in the nose to test the theory. They act like I would imagine Amazon best friend would be. We also see what these Amazons were like under their great queen Cyan - Vicky Pratt plays he with dignity but also a sly sense of humor - another great scene is when Xena drops in on Cyan's steam bath and Cyan strips Xena down to skives (note Xena wears a lace thong who would have thought young Xena had a girly side). The episode of course also introduces our new recurring villains, Alti (Clare Stanisfield). CS is deliciously evil and seductive as Alti. Alti slowly seduces Xena to her dark ways. It is interesting to watch Alti push Xena's buttons. First she practically serves Xena a nubile young girl, Anakin, on a plate. Seeing this episode after seeing FIN and Destiny the viewer can only speculate that Alti knows of Xena's tendency to trust and befriend young women. Then when Anakin rejects Xena in the land of the dead did she know that Xena would be infuriated - another betrayal and another girl friend lost. I have always wondered why Anakin is so hostile to Xena - she blames Xena for killing her soul yet one can assume that hanging out with Alti is to healthy for your soul either. Did Alti manipulated Anakin into believing Xena had hurt her in some way? Alti sure isn't surprised when Anakin says this and just has the right solution for Xena's anger. Alti using Xena's anger, pride and ambition turns Xena into her assassin. Xena betrays Cyan, a woman who might have given her a place of honor among the Amazons, so she might become the Destroyer of Nations. I have always wondered of Alti ever lived up to the promises she made to Xena. Certainly they parted company within nine months of their meeting. Did they part on good or bad terms? I suspect very bad terms because Alti certain wasn't happy to hear of Xena's return. I have always thought that once Alto got her "spiritual powers" she had no further use for Xena. Xena also may have tired of being Alti's pawn especially if there was no real payoff. It is particularly amusing to know that Alti is finally defeated by her much prized spiritual powers - if hadn't shown Xena Gabrielle's death in her future she would have not been defeated. We once again see Borias (Marton Csokas). Csokas does a really wonderful job in creating a very sympathetic person out of a character which could become a simple caricature. Here we see a Borias who is changing. He has fallen in love with Xena and is happy to learn that they will have a child. He now watches as his lover is seduced away from by an ambition he can't understand. Borias wants power and wealth but he has no ambition for the kind power that Xena yearns for - a power to control destiny itself. Borias is at heart a decent man - he rescues and takes in the child Otere (after seeing The Last Of the Centaurs we can now see why he does this - I'm sure he sees his abandon son in Otere). He wants a family and a future with Xena only to come to realize that he is becoming superfluous in Xena's life. Finally and certainly we have Lucy's great performance as Xena and Young Xena. Xena is mesmerizing as the grieving Xena - stalking through the rain gathering the things she needs to visit Gabrielle in the land of the dead. The audience can see Xena touched a bit by madness her - hearing Gabrielle calling her in the wind, sewing the bloody hide of the deer into her shamaness costume huddled in a dank cave, and remembering her dark past. Then we see her pull herself together when once again confronted by the havoc she caused in her youth. Calling the light that Gabrielle gave her to go back and free the Amazon dead and to mentor a new breed of Amazons. Then we have Lucy's young Xena. A young woman who is at a crossroads in life. Xena is a ruthless warlord and undoubtedly hardened but she has options for a better life. She is loved by Borias and she is about to have a child. Xena apparently is ambiguous about this turn events - she doesn't believe she can love and one can only speculate if she was contemplating ending her pregnancy before Alti spilled the beans since didn't tell Borias about the child. Perhaps she simply considered his fatherhood unimportant. Whatever the reason Borias was rapidly becoming unimportant in Xena's life. If she was ready to move on without Borias then Cyan offered her another option. As an Amazon Xena certainly would have attained prestige and honor but once again Xena rejects a good life. Instead Xena chooses evil because it promises power to punish Caesar and perhaps because it is exciting to her. Xena for the first time becomes truly evil. She has resisted evil when she hesitated to kill Otere at Alti's command but she finally succumbs when she kills Cyan and the Amazon elders. It would have been interesting to know exactly what Alti did to get Xena to kill the Amazons - was it just the power to be the Destroyer of Nations or was it the challenge behind fighting all the Amazons at one time. Anyway young Xena chooses evil and it is the older Xena who once again bears the shame of it and must right the wrong. Anyway great episodes. Points to ponder - It's amazing that LL can look elegant dressed in buckskin with antlers on her head. Do the Amazons have Avon ladies or MaryK ladies (with pink saddles) who supply them with all that black eyeliner? Xena Princess of Understatements deems Alti's power to make people relive their past a "toughie" !? Does anyone besides myself cringe when Alti kisses her henchman? CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #171 **************************************