From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #149 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, June 3 2002 Volume 02 : Number 149 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Best Music on XWP? [mirrordrum ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) [cr ] [chakram-refugees] B*tt-kicking chicks on Herc [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Best Music on XWP? [Lynn W Ribaud > [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: Buffy & Xena (os) [] RE: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Ann Reddecliffe" > ["Ann Reddecliffe" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Best Music on XWP? At 03:12 PM 6/3/2002 +1200, cr wrote: >We wuz just talking about the Amazon funeral song a while back and I was >jsut now listening to a Herc ep (yeah, really! :) and I noticed how good the >music was, it just crossed my mind to see what everyone thinks is the best >soundtrack/music on XWP - and I'm going to include Herc in this ;) well, my sentimental favorite singles are xena's theme song, glede ma glede and m'lila's song which is *not* lo duca (it's by mouth music). i'm also embarrassingly fond of "people got to be free" (indeed almost the entire lyre soundtrack). my favorites from are "melt into me" and the peace/war choruses. i like the latter because it's so broadway musicalish and i can sing along. i liked the ring trilogy music a lot and i loved the taiko drums from FIN. actually, i thought the FIN soundtrack was generally quite good. md--fresh from the tonys and starting at the bottom *yet* again ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:22:56 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Best Music on XWP? On Monday 03 June 2002 16:55, mirrordrum wrote: > At 03:12 PM 6/3/2002 +1200, cr wrote: > >We wuz just talking about the Amazon funeral song a while back and I was > >jsut now listening to a Herc ep (yeah, really! :) and I noticed how good > > the music was, it just crossed my mind to see what everyone thinks is the > > best soundtrack/music on XWP - and I'm going to include Herc in this ;) > > well, my sentimental favorite singles are xena's theme song, glede ma glede > and m'lila's song which is *not* lo duca (it's by mouth music). Yes, that's an excellent piece of music, that had slipped my mind but it goes on my list. > i'm also > embarrassingly fond of "people got to be free" Yep, that one is quite catchy. Though on the whole I quite like Lyre (probably something to do with Gillian Iliana Waters yum yum :) even though most of the songs don't do a lot for me - they're OK but not my favourites. > (indeed almost > the entire lyre soundtrack). my favorites from are "melt into me" and > the peace/war choruses. i like the latter because it's so broadway > musicalish and i can sing along. > > i liked the ring trilogy music a lot and i loved the taiko drums from FIN. > actually, i thought the FIN soundtrack was generally quite good. > > md--fresh from the tonys and starting at the bottom *yet* again You mean, watching 'The Warrior Princess' ? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. 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Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:33:22 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) On Monday 03 June 2002 03:53, mirrordrum wrote: (big snips though I hate to snip any of it) > > xena has a dark side that she learns to lighten, she conquers armies > single-handed, dances like everybody's watching, causeth pantheons to > tremble, bears children, suffers tragedy and surmounts it, is defender of > the faith, destined to become the mother of peace, loves whole-heartedly, > has great clothes and exceptional beauty and uses them to advantage. when > she makes monumental messes, however ill-contrived, she cleans up after > herself. what in the name of all that's holy does one want more than that? > shoot, if i could swing a sword like that and have that kind of courage and > passion, they could behead me all they wanted. 'specially if i knew i got > to come back and kick around w/ gabrielle some more (oh shut up, thelo. > ) Nah, I ain't gonna shut up. I loved your whole post. Can we call it 'Ode to Xena' ? ;-) Thelonius ... P.S. Of course, I might just delete the 'w/' in the last line.... ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 00:49:24 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] B*tt-kicking chicks on Herc OK, maybe I should change the header to 'strong women' ;-) And sorry in advance if it's too OT for y'all. I've been watching a couple of Herc tapes recently as a change from Xena, and ya know, there are quite a lot of strong female characters on that show too. I think they would have attracted more attention if the show hadn't been overshadowed in the 'strong women' department by Xena, which is a pity. (The fact they didn't attract more attention, I mean). I've been watching the first half-dozen eps of Herc Season 5, which is IMO the best season of Herc. Nebula features quite a lot, and Morrigan. Nebula (Gina Torres - Cleo in King of Assassins) appeared in Season 4 Web of Desire as a pirate (yep, really), fell in love with Iolaus, graduated to being Queen of Sumeria when her brother was possessed by Dahak, who then killed Iolaus and drove Nebula mad, from which she recovered and helped Herc and Morrigan defeat Dahak and incidentally rescue Ares. Ares' comment on her: "Whoa momma!" He was impressed. So was I. I reckon they could have made a good spinoff show with Nebula if XWP hadn't come along first. Morrigan (Tamara Gorski) started out as a villain -actually an agent of the evil god Kernunnos - until reformed by Herc (yeah just like Xena! ;) For some reason I tend to mentally compare her with Najara (Kathy Morris) - possibly because they're both rather lightly built - but I have to say Morrigan wins. I think because Tamara Gorski has a certain gutsiness that Najara lacks. I was put off by Morrigan's Irish accent at first - strong fake-Irish accents usually get me that way - but on re-watching she's grown on me. (And I've gotta admit, part of that on a subconscious level is probably because she's got the best theme music of anyone, IMO. Sounds silly but it's true. Blame Lo Duca). Of course neither of 'em can start to compare with Xena in full battle mode, but then who can? Herc also had the occasional visit from Callisto to rattle the bars of his cage a bit. I gotta mention Sam Jenkins / Sorbo, who was originally Serena the Golden Hind (who Herc married and was framed for killing her - I tell ya, Herc's affections are as lethal as Gabby's) but whose best performance was as Sin in S6 Be Deviled. She really wound Herc up with her air of malicious amusement. I think she actually manages to rival Callisto in that way. She was actually far more devilish with no makeup and no FX other than a momentary red glow in her eyes, than Lucy was in Fallen Angel (made about the same time). A definite case of 'less is more'. One hopes Mrs Sorbo doesn't try that on Mr Sorbo in real life Renpics seemed to have a penchant for engaging body-builders or martial arts exponents in supporting roles. (Of course Kevin Sorbo was a body-builder himself, wasn't he?) I believe Vicky Pratt (Cyane) was one, but there were several on Herc - Cory Everson as Atalanta, Cynthia Rothrock as the brash obnoxious Enforcer Mark 2, and Karen Sheperd as the original and much more interesting Enforcer (and IMO she did an excellent job). Of course they all got to kick some b*tt. Oh yes, and Nemesis, who started out as a very unconvincing Goddess of Retribution, by the time she ended up in her third body (Kimberley Joseph) was capable of chucking Ares' soldiers around quite nicely. Who else? Claudia Black as Cassandra (in Atlantis) - that was a strong role, though not a physical one - in contrast to her roles as Karina in Amazon High and Aeryn Sun in Farscape which are strong and very physical. Katrina Brown (Thalassa of Shark Island Prison) had a role as the renegade Amazon leader Siri in Prodigal Sister - and I actually preferred her in that. And Lisa Chappell who has been in heaps of Herc eps but never Xena for some reason, played the quite resourceful Lydia in Pride Comes Before a Brawl. There were quite a lot of supporting characters like that on Hercules - and more often female than male - 'ordinary' people who weren't experienced fighters but who, when the chips were down, displayed considerable resourcefulness and grit. TPTB were actually very good at creating secondary characters like that, and I think they should be applauded for it. We might not be able to do as well in a crisis as Herc or even Iolaus (women may substitute 'Xena' and 'Gabby' for the above) but if we could acquit ourselves as well as some of these secondary characters I think we'd be able to hold our heads up. Oh yes - and (we've seen her on XWP) - Hera in her last incarnation as Meg Foster. Mustn't forget her. Once again, sorry for the OT. If there was an active Herc list I'd post it on that instead :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:16:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Lynn W Ribaud Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Best Music on XWP? My penny's worth -- a few comments, some additions... > We wuz just talking about the Amazon funeral song a while back and I was > just now listening to a Herc ep (yeah, really! :) and I noticed how good the > music was, it just crossed my mind to see what everyone thinks is the best > soundtrack/music on XWP - and I'm going to include Herc in this ;) > > No point in asking 'best composer' 'cos it's all LoDuca anyway. > > I think my list would be (in order) > > 1. Sin Trade 1 (for the 'atmosphere') For some reason, one bit that particularly sticks in my mind is the penultimate shot of the pair of eps: Xena riding away from the Ewokazon camp (and saluted, behind her back, by Otere) as the camera rises on a crane shot. It's on the S4 CD, and I find it very evocative. > 2. Amazon queen funeral song (e.g. Ephiny in Endgame) > 3. Morrigan's theme (as in Darkness Rising) > 4. The 'ring' music from the Ring trilogy In a slightly altered form, this is also the "dam-building" music of "The Abyss" and also accompanies Xena's construction of the catapult in "Dangerous Prey. I like both forms as separate entities. Indeed, Wagner-like, there is more to the "Ring" music than just one theme. But I've gone on about that before... > 5. LL's song 'Forgive Me' from Bitter Suite > > There are many others, but those are the ones that spring to mind. Anyone > care to comment? How about the music to Tara's dance in "A Tale of Two Muses"? Or, just in terms of general atmospherics, much of the soundtrack to "A Family Affair". If I'm going to be allowed references to atmospherics, then I'll also add the tracks to "Animal Attraction" and "Old Ares" -- LoDuca adds a nice dose of whimsy to those eps, I think. I'll think of more *after* I send this... Oh, for Herc references, here's one: the music accompanying the civil engineering done by Nebula and Iolaus in "Faith". Well, and the music accompanying the tasks Mabon assigns Herc as he teaches him, in "Resurrection". Lynn Ribaud, Local Contact X3A Beamline, National Synchrotron Light Source, Brookhaven National Lab ribaud@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 10:25:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Sarah Anne Packard Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: [XenaLive] Xena Live last day. > I just got back from the finial show, hot with a huge headache. Hot from the > house being packed where some had to sit on the stairs, and headache from > laughing so damn hard it hurt! I was also laughing so hard it hurt. :) Last night was my first time seeing Xena Live 2, and boy am I glad I managed to make it to Chicago for the final show!! It was well worth the 12 hours total spent on Greyhound buses to and from Michigan (and in the Chicago bus terminal, which isn't the loveliest of places, heh), seriously!! I was carrying my autographed Xena Live 2 poster gingerly all the way home so as not to damage it (and it made the trip intact, so yay)...anyway, I'm also so glad I decided to usher, cuz we barely had to do anything really - stuff some programs, hand out some programs, etc., and I still ended up with a seat in the front row (on the left corner)! And saved $20-$25 on the ticket! (But I did buy a $20 poster, so it's not like I was denying About-Face of their rightly earned money... :) ) The house manager, Jen, was super nice, even called me a cab to the bus station after the show...and all the Xenites in the house, many who had seen the show dozens of times (!), were friendly and outgoing. After talking to one woman (ack, I forget her name!), she and her friends remembered my posts to this list, once I told her my screen name (abbagirl)! :) It's a small world when it comes to the Xena community. Anyway, I had seen the first Xena Live back in '99, when I was in town for the Chicago Xena con that year (I've been going to the Chicago cons every year since then as well! :) ), and loved it to death, so of course I was determined to see the sequel b4 it ended...and I'm proud of myself for taking the initiative to arrange this whole trip, rather at the last minute and on a shoestring budget. The show was somewhat different this time around (a musical, hurrah! I am a total musical theatre geek so this really tickled my fancy...although I kinda woulda liked some more original songs. The 2 they did have were excellent though, and the rest of the numbers were indeed well chosen, especially the altered parody lyrics, heh), and I'm still trying to decide which one I liked better...the first one had more Xena and Gabrielle really, as they were separated for most of this show and there were a bunch of other characters running around - heck, there was more male/male action than female this time around! (Not that I'm complaining! :) Gaybriel and Ares were a hoot...both fabulous performances...both actors had everyone in stitches.) And I kinda miss Callisto. :) (And the Amazons! One of my fave char's in the original was Muffy the Amazon Layer, I wish she coulda been back, oh well...) But Alti was cool...and Aphrodite blew me away! I wish Alex Tydings and Claire Stansfield coulda seen this show, as they would have been amazed at their stage alter ego's, both of whom bore uncanny resemblances to them, and both had the nuances of the characters down pat. And of course Elizabeth and Amy inhabited X and G perhaps even more perfectly this time - and we got to see Gabby in 6th season red garb with sais and short hair, totally kicking booty, woo-hoo! :) (Although I have a certain fondness for the BGSB and the "golden fleece"...she actually used her staff more than the sais in this show it seemed, oddly enough...) And they can both sing, as could the rest of the cast! One of the real treats, however, was Alexandra Billings as the self-help guru "Androgyny"!! I am SOOOO glad I got to see the show after she took over the role, because she literally stole the show several times...her Katharine Hepburn impression during the About-Face "commercial" alone had everyone screaming with gales of laughter!! She sure can sing, too! And her facial expressions...that woman is amazing. I think she really got to shine more this time than she did as Warrior Xena in the first Xena Live...the new Gaybriel was fabulous too, so I'm glad I got to see him as well. Kudos to the Ares as well, he was far better than the Ares in the first Xena Live, and he also stopped the show a few times. Heck, there were a lot of moments where the show literally stopped because the audience was so feeding the actors and they were totally hamming it up for us! :) After a few glitches in the climactic fight scene between X and G at the end, Elizabeth said "can we do that again?" and so they all "rewound" back to their original places and redid it!! It was hilarious! I think you could tell that the cast was having a ball with their final performance, just going for the gusto and relishing every moment, interacting with the audience and everything. (Amy and Elizabeth also came out and talked afterwards...and in another moment of hilarity, Alex kept peeping out and Elizabeth would run around after her!) By the way, afterwards Alex went off to this place on Halsted called 'Gentry', I think, to sing some cabaret, but I decided not to go cuz a) I didn't know where it was and wasn't sure about trying to go there alone and b) I figured I should play it safe and just get to the bus station...of course, after sitting around waiting at the bus station for like 3 hours (my bus was at 1:30) I regretted this decision, but oh well. :) > I cannot describe enough to all you die hard Xena fans. The live show is > beyond well worth it to see it. Each time I saw part 2, they changed the show > in a way that made it even more better. Want part three? Write in a nice > manner to the Theater asking for three!! We want three, we want three!! > faceline1@aboutfacetheatre.com I want "Buffy Live" too, but that's another story. :) > Written by: Claudia Allen > Wrote both 1 & 2, true Xenite and she deserves a huge round of applause! She was in the audience last night and I got to meet and talk to her, yay! Apparently she went to U of M or something too, neat-o. And she's a Buffy fan, so I and some other people begged her to do "Buffy Live"... > Dramaturg/Videographer: Diane S. Bauden/Di/DS/Bard/Author/Video maker. > Other then being one of our own, a bard, makes kick ass music videos. She > made these videos of scenes from Xena with Elizabeth and Amy. (Xena and > Gabrielle) From her backyard mind you, her neighbors will never be the same > again. What would you think if your neighbor in the middle of winter was > filming two women bathing, cuddling, err...??? Well, you get the hint. Di is > a big hearted sweet person who has tons of talent to boot! She added, with > her videos such spice to the show! WOW! Slurp to Di! Di was also in the house, but I never got to talk to her...I know her from Xena Palace and have met her at the Chicago cons b4, she's very cool. Yay Di! (Hey, are Xena Nights still going on in Chicago, at Stargaze?) > > Conceived by: Amy Matheny (Gabrielle) > I can't say enough about this person with such a big soul. Humor, brains, > looks, talent, voice of a Goddess, wonder! Damn she has it all! She brought > our dream back in live form and we should all be grateful to her for it! Very > kind wonderful person she is. Thank you Amy! > http://whoosh.org/issue69/imatheny2.html > She's gorgeous, too. ;) I'm a diehard Gabby fan, and she truly did justice to the character, Renee would be so proud! :) > Xena: Elizabeth LaidLaw > What a woman! Impressive, and both times I met her I felt like I should drop > and give her twenty push ups. Striking eyes, strong hand shake, tall, > beautiful voice, sense of humor. The only way I can sum her up in one word > would be 'awesome'! What a woman! "Thank God for Theater!" Thank you for > being our hero in live form and still having your head. sure Tapert is no where in sight with a sword.> > http://whoosh.org/issue69/ilaidlaw1.html > Lucy would also be proud of this grrl...she truly *became* Xena. Oh, and she's a total hottie too. :) > Alti: Elizabeth Rich > Perfect Alti with a touch of humor. Even has the, I either gave too much head > voice or had one to many cartons of cigarettes', voice of Alti's. She was > great. Thank you! > And the right amount of black eyeliner!! :) > Aphrodite/Pig: Lisa Velten > This woman was born to play this roll. She did the Goddess of Love perfectly > and with such humor. She was amazing. I will never get the Love God (Boat) > tune out of my head now! ARGH! As pig she was a hoot, wanted to end world > hunger. So as pig say's- 'Eat Me!' ROTFLMAO! Thank you! > She cracked me up!! > Chicken: Dawn 'Sam' Alden > Tonight's show she laid her egg, brought a tear to my eye, because I think > she caught the whole cast off guard. Made me laugh harder. Dawn is kick-butt > (actress, stunt person, etc.) and added a great deal to the cast. Thank you. > I shall never look at chicken the same way again. > So was that a last-minute, surprise addition, the egg thing? Cuz it was brilliant! :) I remember being impressed with her in the first Xena Live too. > Androgyny 2: Alexandra Billings > This woman is too much, her Katherine Hepburn lasted ten minutes and we all > needed oxygen when she was done. My chest hurts from laughing hard. Plus she > will go off on your own to add something out of the blue just to make it more > funny and at times she made her fellow actors giggle. Couldn't help it. Or > tease someone in the audience until we all needed to run to the bathroom and > pee. God, why did I drink water before I went in? I knew I was going to laugh > my ass off. Alex was in the first one and I'm glad they were able to get her > for the extension of the show (2). She added a lot to it. This woman can do > impression, sing, dance and has one long ass tongue!! WOWIE! Thank you Alex. > I think she even made herself laugh at one point during her Hepburn spiel! :) > Ares: Gregory Thomas Isaac > No one will ever be Ares other then Kevin Smith to me. But this guy did the > roll very well. He reeked testosterone even when he was kissing another man. > LOL! He can sing, dance, get his ass kicked and can pelvic thrust where you > almost slide out of your seat. Thank you. And for a straight actor he did a damn fine job of groping Gaybriel. :) > > Synonymous: Patrick Sarb > If I had to pick a sidekick for Gabrielle, this guy would of been it. No > matter how much a person cannot imagine Gabrielle without Xena, this cutie > made ya smile. He can dance where you chuckle, sing, you name it. Thank you. > He was definitely a cutie...his little Rick Astley "Never Gonna Give You Up" number in the beginning, complete with boy-band dance moves, was inspired. His character was kind of a Joxer...with less bumbliness and more, uh, gender ambiguousness. ;) > Gaybriel/Joxer 2: > This guy might of been small, but he packed a punch with this roll. Won me > over fast and cracked me up. Thank you! I loved how he kept adjusting his short silver skirt, pulling it down all the time! :) > > Tonight's show wasn't sad at all. Yeah it sucks it had to end, but I was > laughing to hard to notice. Plus when Amy said something about a part three > and it would help if people contacted the theater and express what they want. > Well??? Contact them people. We want a third one!! > faceline1@aboutfacetheatre.com Count me in to fight the good fight! ;) -Sarah, aka the abbagirl- P.S. Does anyone know if one can still get any merchandise from the first Xena Live? I would kill for a poster and/or a t-shirt from the first one, I never got them and totally regretted it later... ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 11:34:37 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Best Music on XWP? In a message dated 6/2/2002 9:06:46 PM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > it just crossed my mind to see what everyone thinks is the best > soundtrack/music on XWP "The Ladder Fight," the music from "The Debt," and the last piece in FIN ("Xena vs. Yodoshi.") - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 11:34:22 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 6/2/2002 6:04:30 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > Now about the hairless Joxer. I have > pondered this with my big giant brain and I have come to number of reasons > why > Joxer is hairless. Since Joxer keeps talking about "furious zug-zug" with > Gabrielle there may have been some concern that Joxer might have been > perceived as a threat to Gabrielle. therefore by making Joxer hairless he > could be seen as an adolescent and not as a full grown man and therefore > less > of a threat. On the other hand perhaps Ten Raimi is just hairless. Cheryl, I have truly enjoyed your reviews. They've provoked me to rethink and ponder many issues, as well to consider ones I hadn't before. Alas, the hairless Joxer/Ted question is not (nor ever will be) one of them. I hope Sharon D. can answer this for you. Or someone else. Anyone. The sooner, the better. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 13:34:47 -0400 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Buffy & Xena (os) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 11:53:20 -0400 From: mirrordrum i think your point is understandable, lilli, when speaking about the history of writing both by and about lesbians and gay men and indeed about women in general. ... are about people who lived painful, dreary lives at lest in part because of their sexual orientations. at least in "boys," they did it with panache, witty repartee and courage. in complete contradistinction to the above examples of sad lives, xena is about a woman, or two women, who live life with zest, humor, passion, flair, enjoyment, courage, ideals, self-respect, gusto, skill, resource, love, abandon, self-awareness and ultimately for the greater good. those who focus on xena's death at the end as justification for some theme of gay bashing seem to miss the point that xena's life ..." Great post. Yes it does seem that those who focused entirely on Xena's death forgot about her life. Xena and Gabrielle lived their lives as heroes. What's more those who met them , whether frinds or enemies, accepted their relationship as a matter of fact. When Xena was killed she was killed as a respected enemy and not for punishment for violating some social taboo. Gabrielle accepted Xena's death with grief but with great dignity. If you believe that Xena and Gabrielle were lovers then you have an example of a gay couple living an extraordinary life and who were better for it. I had a bit more reservations about Willow and Tara. It was not the relationship itself but Willow's rampage after Tara's death that gave me pause. I felt perhaps that fell more into the category of sterotyping lesbians as unstabile. On retrospect I think this is not true. Willow has been unstable this season with Tara as her emotional anchor. He instability, of course, came from the great power she has and the tempations that it brought to her. Tara's death gave Willow the excuse to let loose that pent up power and ego that she has been struggling with all season. It was Zander reminding her of love that she has and had with Tara that pulled her back. In the end the relationsip with Tara saved her. Now one more point I read Ifae's comment that producers are damned whatever they do. One wonders if TPTB won't simply abandon presenting gays or other minorities in film if they are berated by the constiuencies representing those minorities everytime they make a dramatic choice they dislike. I am reminded of the Color Purple. When the film came out it was harshly criticised by, I believe, the LA chapter of NAACP as portraying Black men negatively and then when the film didn't win Oscars the same group criticised the Academy for overlooking the film as a slap at black stories. Whoopie Goldberg vented her frustratiion by basically saying that first they sabortaged the film and then bitched becaused the sabotage worked. If people insist on seeing insults where none are meant then those who are being harrassed will simply shy aware from presenting minorites as everyday characters. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:46:00 +0100 From: "Ann Reddecliffe" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] <> # # # # # # this is one of the funniest of the Xena comedies. I love this episode - everyone gets to be silly and the cast seems to be having a wonderful time.>> Have to agree with this - an episode best watched with reflective thinking capacities turned off. This is one of the eps that gets me laughing out loud everytime I watch it. It hasn't got the intelligent wit of eps like Warrior priestess tramp, but it rocks. Just don't worry too much about the plot. Interesting that there are a number of bloopers from this show - perhaps there were a few switched off brains on the set too. It plays like a script that didn't work and needed a lot of improvisation "how can we make this funny?" on the set. Set piece gags without a coherent theme running through it - but it works, almost against the odds. >> Now about the hairless Joxer. I have pondered this with my big giant brain and I have come to number of reasons why Joxer is hairless. therefore by making Joxer hairless he could be seen as an adolescent and not as a full grown man and therefore less of a threat. On the other hand perhaps Ted Raimi is just hairless.>> That works for me.. Ann ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:45:58 +0100 From: "Ann Reddecliffe" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] <> # # # # # # # ## >> Eventually she comes to realize that she has suppressed the memory that she bargained with Ares to get her to Chin but more importantly she has suppressed the motivation for her betrayal - jealously. Gabrielle was angry that Xena apparently loved someone more than her. >>Gabrielle chooses life - she looks into the darkest part of her soul and accepts it knowing that is only a small part of who she is.>> For me this was a key point to Gabrielle's motivation. She doesn't like what she has done or what it says about her, but if she accepts this, then she must accept that it has limits. She acted out of jealousy and jealousy is one of those emotions that can grow and take over, so to keep the memories, she will have to make sure the jealousy is controlled and doesn't take over he actions. It could destroy her relationship with Xena at this point. This was nicley contrasted in FIN where she has even more reason to be jealous, e.g. when she learns that Xena had taught Akemi the pinch. There are flashes of jealousy at that point, but it is controlled. Ann ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 17:09:56 EDT From: MelosaQu@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) In a message dated 06/02/2002 0:40:36 AM EST, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: >But, secondly, why should RT have _not_ killed Xena? You consider the list of prominent characters who got dead violently (and permanently) - M'Lila, Borias, Joxer, Xena's father, Xena's mother, Solan, Gabs' parents (IIRC), Amarice, Ephiny, Marga and a whole lot of other Amazon Queens - and that's just the good guys. So it was always on the cards that one or the other of X&G would buy it. >Compare with Hercules if you like. That was a much 'lighter' show but still, Iolaus died (though much later he came back), <>> And.... > If there's anything lurking in RT's subconscious I think it must be "Kill 'em all!"< You know....I have been thinking along the same lines the last few days. Season 5 alone held a high body count....not to mention, most of the Greek Gods, except Ares and Aphrodite, bit the dust also. I have to agree.....RT loves to "kill 'em all!", doesn't he! Then looking back on JW's BTVS there haven't been as many dead. Ok, the demon and the vampires yes...but I mean main characters. Sunnydale sits on a Hellmouth right? Plenty of ways to get yourself killed, yes? Demons, vampires, creatures from other dimensions, etc....and how does Tara meet her death? By being at the wrong place, at the wrong time by a crazed HUMAN weasel with a gun! Joss's message perhaps is that there are no real monsters, with fangs and horns, in the world.....the monsters are all human. The other main death in BTVS was Buffy's mother, Joyce. How did she meet her end? Not by a demon or a vampire but by a complication/side affect from a previously operated on brain tumor. Both these deaths were shocking and depressing to me and then on Xena....Yes, Xena died a warrior as she should....she went out fighting. It is the staying dead part that got me....and to this day, I still don't understand it. And her death was sooooo graphic! Ok, so was Warren's on Buffy...YIKES!! But he is a BAD guy! Justified, IMO! ;-) What is my point to all this? I have no idea! I am just Babbling On! ;-) Maybe it is that while Joss killed off Tara and Joyce....I understood their deaths. Doesn't mean I have to like it....but I understood it. RT killed off Xena and I understood that too....but again, it is the staying dead part I don't understand. And reading all the posts and having ppl try to explain it to me still doesn't help. Sorry.... Just my thoughts..... ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 21:40:44 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Buffy & Xena (os) In a message dated 06/03/2002 12:35:15 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: << Now one more point I read Ifae's comment that producers are damned whatever they do. One wonders if TPTB won't simply abandon presenting gays or other minorities in film if they are berated by the constiuencies representing those minorities everytime they make a dramatic choice they dislike. I am reminded of the Color Purple. When the film came out it was harshly criticised by, I believe, the LA chapter of NAACP as portraying Black men negatively and then when the film didn't win Oscars the same group criticised the Academy for overlooking the film as a slap at black stories. Whoopie Goldberg vented her frustratiion by basically saying that first they sabortaged the film and then bitched becaused the sabotage worked. If people insist on seeing insults where none are meant then those who are being harrassed will simply shy aware from presenting minorites as everyday characters. >> I hesitated making the racial comparison (with which I'm more familiar), but I think it's a good example of what I said about the impact of numbers. There are some excellent portrayals of certain segments of African American life, but there can be mixed emotions about that if it seems that's the main or *only* representation. The more shows featuring Black actors, the less criticism you hear about ones that aren't so hot or may even be stereotypical. Now, in the context of lots of other portrayals, "The Color Purple" can stand more on its own. I can remember a time my friends and I sat around waiting for the Black sidekick to get killed off (usually saving a white friend). I felt a twinge or two when M'Lila and Marcus bit the dust, or when a Black actor played evil characters like Bacchus and Mephistopheles. But then I saw that balanced by Helen of Troy or the young man whose father Joxer killed. I appreciated the obvious effort TPTB went to showing diversity of all kinds -- some of which included me. My initial twinge had little to do with the quality of XWP, RT's artistic vision, being "politically correct," or wanting to see only good things happen to those characters. I simply felt better the more I saw a range of characters, some being bad or having bad things happen to them, some being good or having good things happen to them. As an admittedly nonexpert observor, I can't say I feel we're there yet in terms of gay images. Heck, X&G weren't even formally presented as lesbian, so there are wide ranging opinions on whether their life "counts" in terms of lesbian portrayals. But given that TPTB intentionally encouraged that as one interpretation of the relationship, I can certainly understand why so many viewers feel XWP does "count." I didn't initially see the subtext, but grew to value it's contribution -- which LL, ROC and other Xenastaffers openly acknowledge. I also saw XWP as having other equally legitimate interpretations and thought FIN to be a worthy culmination of RT's original vision, as well as a tribute to the relationship that took on a life of its own. I agree with the poster who talked about all the positives XWP gave us of two women living, loving and triumphing together. That doesn't change that I now empathize with those who - -- given the paucity of such empowering stuff as we saw on XWP -- mourn when, once again, they see the life and characters they identified with literally torn apart. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #149 **************************************