From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #148 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, June 3 2002 Volume 02 : Number 148 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) [mirrordrum > ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 18:59:27 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) On Sunday 02 June 2002 14:19, Lilli Sprintz wrote: > Meredith said, in responding to Cheryl about Buffy: > > > "Oh yes, there have been HOWLS of protest, as expected. > But Joss (and the other producers and writers) have > gone on record many times as saying that they *never* > considered Willow and Tara "our gay couple", they > considered them just one of the couples portrayed on > the show, like Xander and Anya or Buffy and Spike." > > > So, whoever is lesbian/gay and out there being happy, may become somewhat > upset when one more film, or program, tries to convince them again that it > just won't work. Were Gabrielle and Xena "gay,": I'm not sure it even > matters. > > Even if the producers of the two mentioned programs were not intentionally > trying to kill off "lesbian" relationships, the oppressive information that > straight people learn may still unconsciously lead people to make decisions > about plot lines or shows that still fall into the oppression. > > That's all for now : ) > > (now, be nice in responding) With all due respect, that doesn't hold water. First, the X-G relationship continued - we were told that in Between the Lines IIRC. But, secondly, why should RT have _not_ killed Xena? You consider the list of prominent characters who got dead violently (and permanently) - M'Lila, Borias, Joxer, Xena's father, Xena's mother, Solan, Gabs' parents (IIRC), Amarice, Ephiny, Marga and a whole lot of other Amazon Queens - and that's just the good guys. So it was always on the cards that one or the other of X&G would buy it. Compare with Hercules if you like. That was a much 'lighter' show but still, Iolaus died (though much later he came back), Herc's family were killed violently - by his stepmother, Herc's second wife Serena was killed by Strife and framed on Herc, and later revived in an alternate timeline where she married someone else and Herc couldn't be with her, Herc's romance with Morrigan had to end when she went back to Eire, Herc's father killed his stepmother and Herc ended up killing his father. There's probably more but I can't recall it all. Doesn't all this send a message that heterosexual relationships are doomed? If there's anything lurking in RT's subconscious I think it must be "Kill 'em all!" cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 03:21:51 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) In a message dated 6/1/2002 9:45:14 PM Central Daylight Time, meth@smoe.org writes: > I think the people who are up in arms because they think Joss killed Tara > because she's gay (or Tapert killed Xena so she and Gabrielle would be > forced apart) are missing a major point. And those same people are going > to be disappointed when they realize that true equality means having to > deal with the bad as well as the good, just like everybody else. > The reality is, numbers do count. When you have lots of images showing the diversity of some group, it's a little easier to accept the bad with the good. When you have relatively fewer images, there's greater risk of stereotyping and magnifying seemingly "routine" aspects. There are tons of heterosexual "main" characters. When one of them dies, you haven't wiped out all or half of them portrayed on a particular show. Nor is there much chance that viewers will take that as a commentary on heterosexuality. I personally believe TPTB's intentions were as you say, and that most producers don't portray gay characters with the idea of demeaning them. I agree that it would be great if each show could be judged on its own merits or "vision." I think it's too bad that groundbreaking producers are often in a "damned if they do/damned if they don't" position. But it's hard to separate that from the whole context of both media and society. "Equality" is one of those subjective concepts where one person says, "See, that shows what can happen to any human being," while another says, "Yeah, but it's happening disproportionately to *some* human beings." Until we see gay characters routinely shown living or experiencing "the good" in a range of settings, we can expect criticism if they appear to be routinely dying or experiencing "the bad" in the few settings we see. I'm not talking "fairness," intent or philosophy here. I'm suggesting that numbers can affect "the point" that different viewers take away, regardless of a show's innocence or quality. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 11:53:20 -0400 From: mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) At 09:19 PM 6/1/2002 -0500, Lilli Sprintz wrote: >Meredith said, in responding to Cheryl about Buffy: > >"Oh yes, there have been HOWLS of protest, as expected. >But Joss (and the other producers and writers) have >gone on record many times as saying that they *never* >considered Willow and Tara "our gay couple", they >considered them just one of the couples portrayed on >the show, like Xander and Anya or Buffy and Spike." > >Perhaps the reason is something I was aware about last year when people >were responding to Xena's death in relationship to Gabrielle: regarding >gay images, one of the images that was seen for a very long time before >being gay became "ordinary" was that of lesbian partners dying, getting >killed, committing suicide. So when lesbians and gay men started leading >happier lives, mostly because the oppression was changing, in some places >it has become "easier," it has still remained a piece of lesbian/gay >oppression history to say that they can't do this, and "we" (the powers >that be) continue to convince "you" that "you" are wrong, by telling you >periodically, again, that it's "off." So, whoever is lesbian/gay and >out there being happy, may become somewhat upset when one more film, or >program, tries to convince them again that it just won't work. as i will discuss below, it's the notion that somehow the relationship between x & g was in any way causal to the ending that leaves me quite baffled. *what* is it that won't work that relates even remotely to xena's denoument? >Even if the producers of the two mentioned programs were not intentionally >trying to kill off "lesbian" relationships, the oppressive information >that straight people learn may still unconsciously lead people to make >decisions about plot lines or shows that still fall into the oppression. i think your point is understandable, lilli, when speaking about the history of writing both by and about lesbians and gay men and indeed about women in general. i just can't extrapolate it to xena. what nobody seems to have grasped is that the most obvious examples, "well of loneliness," "killing of sister george," "giovanni's room," "boys in the band," "the fox," and "children's hour" are about people who lived painful, dreary lives at lest in part because of their sexual orientations. at least in "boys," they did it with panache, witty repartee and courage. in complete contradistinction to the above examples of sad lives, xena is about a woman, or two women, who live life with zest, humor, passion, flair, enjoyment, courage, ideals, self-respect, gusto, skill, resource, love, abandon, self-awareness and ultimately for the greater good. those who focus on xena's death at the end as justification for some theme of gay bashing seem to miss the point that xena's life was extraordinary, her enjoyment of it immense, her relationship with her life partner fulfilling, complex and perpetually enduring. go find that in any of the above-mentioned examples. xena has a dark side that she learns to lighten, she conquers armies single-handed, dances like everybody's watching, causeth pantheons to tremble, bears children, suffers tragedy and surmounts it, is defender of the faith, destined to become the mother of peace, loves whole-heartedly, has great clothes and exceptional beauty and uses them to advantage. when she makes monumental messes, however ill-contrived, she cleans up after herself. what in the name of all that's holy does one want more than that? shoot, if i could swing a sword like that and have that kind of courage and passion, they could behead me all they wanted. 'specially if i knew i got to come back and kick around w/ gabrielle some more (oh shut up, thelo. ) besides 'ow the 'ell can you ignore: "in the time of ancient gods, warlords and kings, a land in turmoil cried out for a hero. her name was xena, a mighty princess, forged in the heat of battle. . .her courage will change the world!" there is simply *nothing* in that that disses this woman. even more to the point, the main concern about negative portrayals of lesbians and lesbian relationships is that they end in psychological defeat. it isn't the fact of death, imo, but that people are driven to premature death by their sense of unworthiness or self-hatred. they die in their souls before they ever die physically. that's the whole point. i saw nothing in the show that suggested that xena died--this last time--because of angst over her relationship with gabrielle, her lifestyle as a woman who had a female soulmate or any form of oppression. xena is certainly one of the *least* oppressed, or repressed, characters of whom i can think. she suffers, yes, but she doesn't wallow. as i've said before, i have trouble with the plot that led her to the choice of redemption through death, but i have no trouble at all with her dying in order finally to have peace nor with the death she accepted. the peace she is seeking has to do with acts she committed as a strong, hellacious, wild, passionate badass who excites admiration and envy. and she pays her debt in an equally strong, hellacious, wild, passionate, badass way. damn! that's just xena. i feel that i am justified in stating here (yet again) that i identify as a lesbian, i have experienced full blown prejudice both as a woman and as an out lesbian woman. i hated myself (many years ago) for being what and who i was and i know a lot about the negative consequences of buying into societal views. i've paid those dues and i'm generally sensitive to those issues. i don't see any tinge of them here. other issues, yes, but that particular one, no. i accept that others do. i just don't see their logic. with all due respect for differing points of view, md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 18:21:11 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #147 Lillie wrote: " Perhaps the reason is something I was aware about last year when people were responding to Xena's death in relationship to Gabrielle: regarding gay images, one of the images that was seen for a very long time before being gay became "ordinary" was that of lesbian partners dying, getting killed, committing suicide. " Granted this has been true. But it has also been true that the love of heterosexual couples don't run smoothly either in fiction. From Romeo and Juliet through Gabrielle and Perdicus straight couples have had their share of bad endings. It is perhaps an indication of how far we have come is that a gay couple can be treated like any other couple in a drama - they're tragedy brings an emotional response from an audience not of satifaction but of grief for the partner left behind. Perhaps JW and RT represent a point of view that treats gay couples not as an oddity or even a political or social statement but simply as a couple just like any other than have their joys and and their tragedies. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 19:06:32 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> # # # # # # this is one of the funniest of the Xena comedies. I love this episode - everyone gets to be silly and the cast seems to be having a wonderful time. Of course the plot revolves around an Aphrodite spell. In order to keep Xena and her "posse" off the track of Aphrodite's henchmen that have a diamond that may or may not be the north star (I'm still a little fizzy about the whole diamond thing) Aphrodite makes Xena, Gabrielle, and Joxer obsesses over whatever they are thinking about at the moment. So Joxer on seeing a mural on Adis the Apeman thinks he is an Apeman, Gabrielle ruminating on Aphrodite,'s narcissism become obsessively vain, and Xena holding a fish becomes a rabid fisherman. So off the trio go - pimping, bug-eating and kite flying and incidentally they recover the diamond too. The are lost of funny bits here. Gabrielle singing her theme song to the tune of Beverley Hillbillies song: Gabrielle; "Come listen to the tale of Gabrielle..A fair young lass with a nice round------(Xena covers her mouth) Xena, are you afraid I'll scare away the fish." Xena in high frustration: "No I'm afraid they will be armed." Xena enthusiastically fisting fish. Xena's moment of joy which turns to abject disappointment when after rescuing Gabrielle from drowning, Gabrielle confess that she has found the one true love of her life - herself. Xena pouting because Gabby won't let her use a lock of the bard's hair as a fishing lure. Gabrielle's astonished reaction when carried off by a very naked and oddly hairless Joxer ( I also love Xena yelling : "Bring her back monkeyman" ). Xena manipulating Gabrielle to confront the thugs and steal the diamond then sending Joxer off to rescue Gabrielle and then calmly whistling the Xena theme as the bard and Joxer do all the work. Finally we a very nice campfire scene with Xena and Gabrielle (you can just barely see Gabrielle taking Xena's hand which later became a still offered by Creations). All in all one of my favorite comedies. Now about the hairless Joxer. I have pondered this with my big giant brain and I have come to number of reasons why Joxer is hairless. Since Joxer keeps talking about "furious zug-zug" with Gabrielle there may have been some concern that Joxer might have been perceived as a threat to Gabrielle. therefore by making Joxer hairless he could be seen as an adolescent and not as a full grown man and therefore less of a threat. On the other hand perhaps Ten Raimi is just hairless. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 15:12:57 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Best Music on XWP? We wuz just talking about the Amazon funeral song a while back and I was jsut now listening to a Herc ep (yeah, really! :) and I noticed how good the music was, it just crossed my mind to see what everyone thinks is the best soundtrack/music on XWP - and I'm going to include Herc in this ;) No point in asking 'best composer' 'cos it's all LoDuca anyway. I think my list would be (in order) 1. Sin Trade 1 (for the 'atmosphere') 2. Amazon queen funeral song (e.g. Ephiny in Endgame) 3. Morrigan's theme (as in Darkness Rising) 4. The 'ring' music from the Ring trilogy 5. LL's song 'Forgive Me' from Bitter Suite There are many others, but those are the ones that spring to mind. Anyone care to comment? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #148 **************************************