From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #147 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, June 2 2002 Volume 02 : Number 147 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Fw: Xena and Buffy ["Cheryl Ande" ] RE: [chakram-refugees] Fw: Xena and Buffy ["Lee Daley" ] [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 18:28:05 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Fw: Xena and Buffy - ----- Original Message ----- From: Cheryl Ande To: meredith_tarr@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 6:27 PM Subject: RE: Xena and Buffy Interesting post. It appears that Josh got some flack too. he however had an excellant answer. I think any creative person has a greater duty to his story than to his fans. If a creator stays true to his creation I believe the fans win. I was not too shocked at Tara's death but I was surprised at Willow. Willow has become over the years a wonderful character and to give this new story line of addiction and weakness and now rage she will be interesting to watch. Tapert and Whedon seem to share the same philosphy - that life is difficult and heroes are not people who triumpahant over life but who struggle with it. It will be interesting to see how JW ends Buffy - I hope with an edge (although I certainly not advocating beheading and a pot for Dawn to carry around). CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:03:54 -0400 From: "Lee Daley" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Fw: Xena and Buffy Tapert and Whedon seem to share the same philosophy - that life is > difficult and heroes are not people who triumphant over life but > who struggle > with it. It will be interesting to see how JW ends Buffy - I hope with an > edge (although I certainly not advocating beheading and a pot for Dawn to > carry around). > Although some viewers have suggested beheading (and possibly a pot) for Dawn, especially during her "obnoxious teenager" stage Rob and Joss do seem to share a lot of characteristics, one of them is that they are both good storytellers, and manage to keep us guessing. LeeD; Warrior Jester ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:19:03 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) Meredith said, in responding to Cheryl about Buffy: "Oh yes, there have been HOWLS of protest, as expected. But Joss (and the other producers and writers) have gone on record many times as saying that they *never* considered Willow and Tara "our gay couple", they considered them just one of the couples portrayed on the show, like Xander and Anya or Buffy and Spike." Perhaps the reason is something I was aware about last year when people were responding to Xena's death in relationship to Gabrielle: regarding gay images, one of the images that was seen for a very long time before being gay became "ordinary" was that of lesbian partners dying, getting killed, committing suicide. An example is the film, "Children's Hour," which I remembered seeing as a child. A wonderful cast of well-known actresses Shirley MacClaine and Audrey Hepburn, and written by well-known US author Lillian Hellman, it's lesbian theme was a bit daring for 1961 movies. Originally it was written and then performed as a play in the 1930's. MacClaine's character committed suicide at the end. "The Well of Loneliness," a 1928 book written by a lesbian author in Europe was also stuck with a bad ending, because the author, who was gay, and many other gay people at that time were so committed to being who they were, yet so oppressed, that very often the only option seemed those kind of endings. Movies about gay men, such as Boys in the Band, had similar unhappy endings. The message they were giving was that to be gay meant to be depressed, suicidal, unhappy with one's life, and of course, it was dangerous. Nothing happy. So when lesbians and gay men started leading happier lives, mostly because the oppression was changing, in some places it has become "easier," it has still remained a piece of lesbian/gay oppression history to say that they can't do this, and "we" (the powers that be) continue to convince "you" that "you" are wrong, by telling you periodically, again, that it's "off." Ask any person of color, woman, poor person, or man who tries to stand up to the oppression by being kind or emotional or sensitive, that the oppression itself is what makes people fearful, suicidal, unhappy, and tragically, can cause violent deaths. So, whoever is lesbian/gay and out there being happy, may become somewhat upset when one more film, or program, tries to convince them again that it just won't work. Were Gabrielle and Xena "gay,": I'm not sure it even matters. Even if the producers of the two mentioned programs were not intentionally trying to kill off "lesbian" relationships, the oppressive information that straight people learn may still unconsciously lead people to make decisions about plot lines or shows that still fall into the oppression. That's all for now : ) (now, be nice in responding) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 22:45:16 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) Hi, Lilli responded: >Even if the producers of the two mentioned programs were not intentionally >trying to kill off "lesbian" relationships, the oppressive information >that straight people learn may still unconsciously lead people to make >decisions about plot lines or shows that still fall into the oppression. Thanks for that background information. I have been hearing lots lately about the long history of bad ends to lesbian/gay relationships in fiction of various media, but so far no one has provided specific examples of productions where that happened. What happened in the past is one thing. Today, we are closer to mainstream acceptance of lesbian and gay life than ever (though yes, I do realize that there is still a long way to go) ... and equality has to be across the board. Bad things have to happen to lesbians and gays in fiction just as much as to straight people in fiction, or there is no true equality. Equality does not, and cannot mean special treatment. I think that's the stance Joss and co. are taking: as Joss said, *not* killing Tara simply because she's gay would be just as offensive as killing her simply because she's gay. He killed her for one reason: because it was necessary to the story. The fact that she was gay had nothing to do with it. That way of thinking is pretty revolutionary, when you get right down to it. As far as the people who make the show were concerned, Willow and Tara weren't "the gay couple" -- they were just another couple. It didn't stop there: UPN didn't make a big deal out of the fact that they were showing girl/girl action on TV, and I didn't hear of *any* fallout from that at all, neither from advertisers nor from "public citizen" groups. It's not so long ago that _Dawson's Creek_ got some serious flack for daring to show two guys kissing. And really, would anyone have been surprised if UPN had tried to boost ratings by spotlighting the relationship like FOX did for _Ally McBeal_ and _Party of Five_? I'm more surprised (and pleased) that they *didn't*. I think the people who are up in arms because they think Joss killed Tara because she's gay (or Tapert killed Xena so she and Gabrielle would be forced apart) are missing a major point. And those same people are going to be disappointed when they realize that true equality means having to deal with the bad as well as the good, just like everybody else. (Gee, I wonder if they would have let me onto the New Haven Green for Connecticut Pride today if they'd known I harbor such heretical thoughts ... ;) ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:06:19 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> # # # # # # # ## Clip shows are done to save money and are usually just throw away episodes but on Xena they have become an art form. The Athenian Academy and The Xena Scrolls are two exceptional clip shows and Forget Me Not joins them. Forget Me Not answers two questions left unanswered from The Debt - how did Gabrielle beat Xena to Chin and why did Gabrielle betray Xena in the first place?. The answer to the first is simple. Ares did it. This could be the equivalent of saying the wizard did it but in a perverse way it makes sense. Although Ares motivation is never explored one could imagine that Ares had plenty of reasons for arranging Gabby's betrayal - it gave him leverage with Gabby for further use (either as a debt or blackmail), or he saw it as a chance to break up Xena and Gabrielle knowing how badly Xena reacts to betrayal. I doubt if he ever thought Xena would be killed in Chin - he seems to have always had a lot of faith in her survival instincts. The more interesting aspect of this episode is Gabrielle's search for the answer behind her nightmares. Gabrielle is haunted by the horrible memories of Chin, Hope and Rome. To rid herself of these memories she goes to the Temple of Memosine where she must decide if she should keep her memories or loose them. In essence Gabrielle is contemplating suicide - she is deciding whether or not she will kill her self - if you loose your past you lose your identity and you cease to exist. To make this decision she must find the answer to a secret that she has hidden even from herself. The priestess sends Gabrielle into a nightmare world where she encounters the image of Ares and the memories of her past. Eventually she comes to realize that she has suppressed the memory that she bargained with Ares to get her to Chin but more importantly she has suppressed the motivation for her betrayal - jealously. Gabrielle was angry that Xena apparently loved someone more than her. This is the terrible truth Gabrielle has to face - her motives weren't noble but base and ugly. She nearly got her friend killed not out of some misguided idea of the greater good but because she wanted Xena to hurt and suffer. Gabrielle must now decide if she can live with this realization. She weighs what she will lose if chooses forgetfulness - her family and friends against the fact that she must live with a very nasty truth about herself. Gabrielle chooses life - she looks into the darkest part of her soul and accepts it knowing that is only a small part of who she is. It is overall an excellent episode. Kevin Smith is wonderful - I love his reaction as ROC teeters on the cracking ice bridge - just a little body English as Gabrielle tumbles into the water. As I have said before I like KS and ROC's chemistry together - it certainly isn't sexual but a kind of wary respect. ROC is also very good - she is especially good when she displays a false bravado as Gabrielle tries to convince herself that she has found the answer to her problems long before the real questions are answered. ROC is also very funny in the subplot involving Joxer. She has one of the best inside jokes of the series - as Joxer reads her scrolls to her Gabby marvels as she looks down at her BGSB: "This thing seems to keep getting smaller. Is it enchanted?" At the time this episode aired Joxer was roundly criticized for taking advantage of Gabrielle but other than puffing himself up a bit, Joxer is just too decent to take advantage of anyone. The side plot is a bit silly but it has one telling moment - Gabrielle now an innocent who has what she wanted - no memories - actually pleads with Joxer to make her remember. It is nice little moment which sort of underscores the theme of the episode - that our memories however bad gives us our identities and without them we are lost. One little complaint - they could have found a better actress for the High Priestess although I liked her ow when she encounters Joxer's memories. Also the episode is little shorter than most Xena episodes. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #147 **************************************