From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #146 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, June 1 2002 Volume 02 : Number 146 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) ["Megaera _" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) [mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) >From: "Cheryl Ande" >Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:55:28 -0400 > ># ># ># ># ># ># ># ># ># > >i put some spoilerspace her for the Buffy people. I was curious about how >Buffy fans reacted to Tara's death and Willow's little psychotic episode. >When RT killed Xena off and sent Gabrielle off on her own (more or less) >there was some criticism that Rob had betrayed the lesbian fans by >"punishing" Xena and Gabrielle for being gay (i don't remember if that >opinion was voiced here but I did hear it in some quarters.) I was >wondering if Josh Whedon has been similarly criticized. He not only killed >off one of his lesbian characters but turned the other one into a evil-doer >rescued from her darkside by a man (gasp). Poor Willow doesn't even get >Buffy to save her only Zander. For the >record I watch Buffy and like it very much and Willow is my favorite >character and I was sorry to see Tara go (granted she may be resurrected). >I also sometime ago predicted Tara would bite the dust (she just had >red-shirt stamped on her forehead) and I was critized for that observation >- but I was right (small evil gloat). > >CherylA Hi Cheryl, Firstly, I never thought Xena and Gab were gay, so I didn't hear any of the negative info sent to Rob. In any event, I was taken aback when Tara was shot. When she said--'your shirt', well it was so sad. Since Willow was already a powerful witch, I saw this coming. Of course she is going to avenge her friends death. I never thought about Zander being anything but her long time friend, wanting her back. He was already guilty for just standing there (so he says, as if he could have rushed the little maggot with the gun), so I thought this is something he would do. Also, Willow did save Buffy. I actually thought the season finale was one of the best episodes. Can you imagine Spike now? Just my opinions. I didn't though, hear anything said about Joss or this ending. Maybe I need to get out more lol. Meg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 22:47:10 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] REMINDER--Hawai'i Xenafest!!! ;=) DON'T FORGET--the 7th-Ever Hawai'i Xenafest will be next Sun., June 9, from 11 am to 3 pm at UH-Manoa, HIG 110!!! *Our special guest star* will be Robert Trebor ("Salmoneus" of Hercules and Xena fame)!!! Robert will be signing autographs and selling his new book, Dear Salmoneus, and of course, answering all your XWP questions!! We'll also have martial arts and sword fighting demos, an auction, videos, a costume contest, trivia, and door prizes!! Full info's on our Web page (URL's in my sig block below). ;=) See you there!!! ;=) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:29:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) Hi, Cheryl inquired: > i put some spoilerspace her for the Buffy people. I > was curious about how > Buffy fans reacted to Tara's death and Willow's > little psychotic episode. As far as I've seen, there have been various reactions. Pretty much everyone was shocked (even those who had seen spoilers in advance). Some who didn't care for Tara are ambivalent; some who liked Tara and loved her relationship with Willow (like me) were really moved; and some who like to see the world in terms of black and white immediately vilified Joss Whedon for gay-bashing. There have been the inevitable cries of "I'm never watching the show again", people putting their entire memorabilia collections up on Ebay ... in short, much the same sort of thing that went on in the Xenaverse last year at around this time. :} > I was wondering if Josh Whedon has been > similarly criticized. He not only killed off one of > his lesbian characters > but turned the other one into a evil-doer rescued > from her darkside by a man > (gasp). Oh yes, there have been HOWLS of protest, as expected. But Joss (and the other producers and writers) have gone on record many times as saying that they *never* considered Willow and Tara "our gay couple", they considered them just one of the couples portrayed on the show, like Xander and Anya or Buffy and Spike. Joss posted this beautiful statement on the Bronze posting board after "Seeing Red" aired: "I killed Tara. Some of you may have been hurt by that. It very unlikely it was more painful to you than it was to me. I couldn't even discuss it in story meetings without getting upset, physically. Which is why I knew it was the right thing to do. Because stories, as I have so often said, are not about what we WANT. And I knew some people would be angry with me for destroying the only gay couple on the show, but the idea that I COULDN'T kill Tara because she was gay is as offensive to me as the idea that I DID kill her because she was gay. Willow's story was not about being gay. It was about weakness, addiction, loss... the way life hits you in the gut right when you think you're back on your feet. The course of true love never did run smooth, not on my show. (only Dennis Franz has suffered more than my characters.) I love Amber and she knows it. Eventually, this story will end for all of them. Hers ended sooner." I think everyone who is crying "homophobe" because of Tara's death needs to read those words very carefully. Joss is a storyteller above all else. Writers will all tell you that more often than not, the characters recite their story to them, and all they're doing is transcription. If this is the way the story needs to be told, then so be it. I don't have to like it ... but when does life ever go the way you want it to go? To tie this back in to X:WP, on a personal level: after I saw "Seeing Red", I realized that now I understand why so many people hated FIN. Don't get me wrong: I still love the ending, and continue to applaud Tapert for having the cojones to end it the way he wanted to end it, even knowing full well what a firestorm it would cause (I don't believe for a minute that the reaction actually surprised him). But applying how shocked and saddened and empty and hurt I felt after watching Tara die in Willow's arms to FIN, for the first time I can really see *why* the people who hate FIN -- and hate Tapert for perpetrating it -- feel so strongly about it. Those who (unlike me) believe that Xena and Gabrielle are really apart forever, despite the final shot of Xena standing by Gabrielle's side on the ship (don't even get me STARTED on the changed ending in the "director's cut") are facing the same reality that I'm facing when I look at Willow without Tara, knowing that Tara really is gone for good. I'm going on 3 hours' sleep so probably none of the above makes any sense ... maybe I'll try again tomorrow. :} Meredith@work meth@smoe.org Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:13:39 EDT From: MelosaQu@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) In a message dated 05/31/2002 12:29:11 PM EST, meredith_tarr@yahoo.com writes: >To tie this back in to X:WP, on a personal level: after I saw "Seeing Red", I realized that now I understand why so many people hated FIN.< <> > But applying how shocked and saddened and empty and hurt I felt after watching Tara die in Willow's arms to FIN, for the first time I can really see *why* the people who hate FIN -- and hate Tapert for perpetrating it -- feel so strongly about it. Those who (unlike me) believe that Xena and Gabrielle are really apart forever, despite the final shot of Xena standing by Gabrielle's side on the ship (don't even get me STARTED on the changed ending in the "director's cut") are facing the same reality that I'm facing when I look at Willow without Tara, knowing that Tara really is gone for good.< >I'm going on 3 hours' sleep so probably none of the above makes any sense ... maybe I'll try again tomorrow. :} Nope....I understood everything you said! I am not one of those who hates Tapert for FIN, I am just disappointed. I am still saddened by that episode and now also saddened by the Willow/Tara ending. But, I also cried when Oz left Willow too...but he is still alive so it isn't as bad for me. I guess what I am trying to say is....well, death, is so.....FINAL, you know? I know, I know....in these fantasy shows death isn't always final, some do come back in one way or another, but still.... I am surrounded by death and dying in my real life so I turn to the teley as a form of escapism. And aren't the Xena and Buffy shows fantasy and so much fun to watch? I don't watch the news anymore and Reality TV for me is just too much sometimes. I guess I am old fashioned because I do love that Happy Ending. Ah well.....if the Sci-Fi and Fantasy programs have to bring in reality to jolt the audience, I guess I have to deal with that as well! :::sigh::: At least (so far, anyway) Providence is still the sappy, happy show it always was! LOL! ;-) Just my thoughts..... ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:49:26 -0400 From: mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) Meredith Tarr wrote: >Joss posted this beautiful statement on the Bronze >posting board after "Seeing Red" aired: > >"I killed Tara. . . Because >stories, as I have so often said, are not about what we WANT. And I knew >some people would be angry with me for destroying the only gay couple on >the show, but the idea that I COULDN'T kill Tara because she was gay is as >offensive to me as the idea that I DID kill her because she was gay. >Willow's story was not about being gay. . .Eventually, this story will end >for all of them. Hers ended sooner." yeah! what he said. >I think everyone who is crying "homophobe" because of >Tara's death needs to read those words very carefully. > Joss is a storyteller above all else. . .If this is the way the story > needs to be told, then so be it. I don't have to like it ... >but when does life ever go the way you want it to go? thanks for posting this. i'm not a fan of buffy. . .i've tried and tried and simply have never been able to get into it at all. nonetheless, it's good to read a position like this. on a related note, i *am* a fan of the x-files, tho not a true x-phile at all. although i'd stopped watching the show when mulder left, i did return for the series finale. i watched it in utter horror and mounting boredom. i couldn't help thinking that people who were angered at tapert for ending the show as he did should have watched what happens when you knuckle under as, i'm afraid, carter did. the show ended all so correctly for M & S. mulder came back & he and scully were united at last. they acknowledged that the truth mulder had been searching for throughout the entire show was basically a husk. he had nothing left to search for so they created some piece of spiritual gobbledygook. imo carter either lost his nerve or his vision or both. it was a 2-hour waste of time to close what was once an exceptional show. but by the gods, it ended with mulder and scully together again. by the time they got to that obvious conclusion, i can't imagine that anyone even cared. talk about ending with a whimper. i'll take tapert's painful bang gratefully, thank you very much. >Those >who (unlike me) believe that Xena and Gabrielle are >really apart forever, are facing the same reality that I'm >facing when I look at Willow without Tara, knowing >that Tara really is gone for good. at least the pain is *honest*. unlike many others, i felt that tapert loved his characters enough to let the story come to its inevitable, albeit somewhat convoluted, conclusion. i was listening to no less a light than toni morrison the other day and she said something to the effect that happy endings are insulting. my mind being what it is, i promptly thought about FIN and said "yeah!" for all the typical faults i could find w/ FIN (it *was* a xena episode after all), i believe the viewers and characters were treated with respect precisely because neither we nor they were coddled and given the easy way out. we got that in but that was fine b/c it was a comedy. i also just thought it a well done and intense effort. watching behind the scenes only heightened my sense of that. i admit i haven't rewatched FIN but then i also don't reread morrison. i'm such a wimp and the world is, indeed, too much with me these days. not, mind you, that i compare tapert with morrison. the gods forfend. she is as a star and shines apart. i also watched part of a marvelous 30-year MASH reunion the other day. they talked about the decision to kill henry blake (who wwasn't even *gay*) as well as the decision to have the characters part with finality in the series' finale. i believe father mulcahey also lost his hearing due to an explosion during that ep. they said they tried throughout the show never to glamorize war or minimize the cost. because of this, they felt it essential not to make things simple or easy. the same was true of "china beach." a lot of series simply dwindle and succumb, as x-files did. it's a rare show that goes out with courage, telling the truth of the story itself; not giving the audience an easy out. as adrienne rich said (about truth between women, actually) "we can count on so few to go that hard way with us." thanks again to RT & RJ and, it sounds like, to JW as well. >I'm going on 3 hours' sleep so probably none of the >above makes any sense ... maybe I'll try again >tomorrow. :} i thought you made excellent sense. more sense than most of us make on a full night's sleep. i'm impressed. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 14:28:30 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) Excellent posts, meredith and md. I read them both twice. (You know you've really got it bad for a show when ya start reading repeats of mailing list posts about it! ;-) cr On Saturday 01 June 2002 09:49, mirrordrum wrote: > Meredith Tarr wrote: > >Joss posted this beautiful statement on the Bronze > >posting board after "Seeing Red" aired: > > > >"I killed Tara. . . Because > >stories, as I have so often said, are not about what we WANT. And I knew > >some people would be angry with me for destroying the only gay couple on > >the show, but the idea that I COULDN'T kill Tara because she was gay is as > >offensive to me as the idea that I DID kill her because she was gay. > >Willow's story was not about being gay. . .Eventually, this story will end > >for all of them. Hers ended sooner." > > yeah! what he said. > (Rest regretfuilly snipped) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 22:28:11 -0400 From: mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) At 04:13 PM 5/31/2002 -0400, MelosaQu@aol.com wrote: > I >guess I am old fashioned because I do love that Happy Ending. Ah well.....if >the Sci-Fi and Fantasy programs have to bring in reality to jolt the >audience, I guess I have to deal with that as well! :::sigh::: i certainly empathize with your position. i take the news in doses and periodically take breaks. there is more than enough suffering within reach to keep me quite busy--all any of us has to do is open our eyes. and i certainly enjoy fantasies and happy endings. . .i just don't believe in them, expect them nor require them. that was part of the difficulty with xena. i knew perfectly well it was a fantasy but the characters became utterly real and very much loved so the ending felt real in its consequences and it hurt. i'm grateful to have been a part of something that rich and "juicy." as capable as i am of going for distraction and the easy way out, i am always hoping and expecting that creative people will challenge me by presenting me with complexity and difficulty. i want shows that raise tricky issues and don't provide pat answers (west wing comes to mind). although i'd certainly never classify xena as a show that took itself seriously or worked at being thought-provoking, i'm amazed by how much the show pushed, challenged and taught me. i know i've said this before but i say it again. not only did the show pique my interest and satisfy my curiosity about any number of arcane subjects (and this was often due to the people on the lists), it--or the discussions about it--really pushed the envelope for me in diverse areas. i ended up reaximing my view on ideas ranging from spirituality to ethics and morals, relationships, pacifism and non-violence, sexism, sex and social roles, violence on television, modeling, social construction, determinism and choice and on and on. at the end, it pushed me to think about death, dying and loss; about how i want to live and how i want to die. it forced me to think about courage, both moral and physical, and how to enact or embody those. and the finale, as well as the show itself, pushed me to consider what i think comprises "entertainment." those are options i want. i want to be offered a varied diet and to have the option of being pushed. that won't happen if i am only shown happy endings. i want to be given choices and i don't want only pretty pictures from which to choose. toodles, md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. 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