From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #145 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, May 31 2002 Volume 02 : Number 145 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #142 [Sekhmet209@ao] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #142 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amazon funeral song [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] "Dark Angel"? [Sarah Anne Packard ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Witchblade (was "Dark Angel"?) ["Megaera _" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 01:05:43 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> Oh, much wonderful commentary on wonderful commentary. Now, to the one area where I see it differently. In a message dated 5/28/2002 10:59:10 PM Central Daylight Time, aemoses@comcast.net writes: >i get my back up when xena is caused to do the > "protection" thing in these circumstances. i give her more credit than > that. you can't take, or try to take, away people's responsibility for > their actions and you can't and shouldn't try to protect people you love > from making moral choices. i don't think xena would do that. if she's going > to exert influence, i think she'd not only expect gabrielle to follow her > lead (we know she does) but i would hope she'd be supportive when gabrielle > does out of personal conviction what xena wants her to do. i don't think > she'd try to make it easier. you can't fix people's pain by assuming you > run their lives or by saying "i love you." didn't work in this ep and it > didn't work in . When it comes to Gabrielle, I think (as you point out yourself), Xena generally has a double standard. Xena refused to accept Gabrielle's self-accusation in killing Meridian in "Deliverer." Xena apologized for Gabrielle's killing of the young man in "Legacy." Even as late as "Hellicon," Xena was bemoaning Gabrielle's hardness. Once again, Gabrielle had to tell Xena to "stop it," when Xena was trying to make her feel better. Yes, Xena expects Gabrielle to follow orders ("do what I say"), but not necessarily her lead ("don't be like me") -- a very slight distinction that Xena clings to in order to protect Gabrielle physically in the former instance and morally in the second. I suppose it's Xena's way of trying to reconcile the dichotomy of innocence surviving in her world of violence. More than anything, Princess Fix-It wanted to protect Gabrielle from physical and moral pain, regardless of how inappropriate or futile that might be. Her overly strong sense of self-responsibility led her to deny Gabrielle's own right to choose, to claim what was her responsibility. True, under other circumstances -- certainly where she herself was concerned - -- Xena acted as you say. (About the only time Xena held Gabrielle to her own harsh standards was when Solan was killed and Xena herself was in too much pain to think about Gabrielle.) But Gabrielle was always a special case, for whom Xena never relinquished a certain rose-colored view, even to the very end. Regardless of how inconsistent (or human) this might be, Xena *would* do that, because she *did* do that time and time again. This was frustrating to me too, but it's also a "flaw" that endeared her to me. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 01:05:51 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 5/29/2002 6:37:08 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > As Xena watches Gabrielle struggle with good and evil she must come to > realize that her own struggle comes not from the fact that she is inherently > flawed but that the choices are by their nature difficult. Gabrielle in > season 3 could have become a very dark person - her self image is > shattered - she kills, betrays, deceives- but yet she perceivers. She stays > a good person - she doesn't let her failings and weaknesses destroy her. > Xena now has friend that she can admire not because she is sinless but > because she doesn't let her sins rule her. Xena now knows that darkness is > in all people - if Gabrielle can come throuh the darkness so can Xena. > Ooo, yes! You make me think back to what Xena told that bad girl in "Dirty Dozen" -- that people like them are basically born bad, while people like Gabrielle are born good. By "Forgiven," Xena is able to tell Tara that people aren't born bad, that they can "re-create" themselves. I'm not sure how much slack she gave herself for that, but I believe it was the pivotal lesson she learned from Gabrielle. As KT might say, "Dang! I love this retrospective stuff." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 01:24:27 EDT From: Sekhmet209@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #142 In a message dated 5/29/02 10:09:15 PM, aemoses@comcast.net writes: [snip] >but seriously, what kind of person (personal fantasies about oneself aside) >would y'all pick for xena's partner or soulmate if not gabrielle. i've >thought about who that might be, man or woman, and find it interesting >to >contemplate. i guess a better question would be, if you take away the >requirements of the story, what do you think would be the qualities xena >would be attracted to in a life partner or significant other? or >alternatively, if you consider the requirements of the story, how would >you >construct her "soulmate" so that the series would work and you wouldn't >dislike the person? Hmmm. Good question! Maybe somebody like M'lila? (only not dead, of course ). - --Sekhmet ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:28:00 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #142 On Thursday 30 May 2002 17:24, Sekhmet209@aol.com wrote: > >but seriously, what kind of person (personal fantasies about oneself > > aside) would y'all pick for xena's partner or soulmate if not gabrielle. > Hmmm. Good question! > Maybe somebody like M'lila? (only not dead, of course ). > > --Sekhmet Hah! Just what I said (before I saw your post). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:08:32 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #142 On Thursday 30 May 2002 14:08, mirrordrum wrote: > At 04:36 AM 5/29/2002 -0400, Sekhmet209@aol.com wrote: > > okay, so you have fanaticsies. i suppose one of those would be that you'd > be more deserving than gabrielle? ;-> > > >Of course. Especially since the little blonde kid doesn't deserve her. > > > > it's a matter of some fascination to me that all you xenahos think xena is > so effing clever and can rarely find fault with her decision making but > can't trust the woman to know her own soulmate when tptb find her one. tsk > tsk tsk. jealousy is *so* blinding. Touche! [That last letter should have an acute accent - and no I don't mean an atrocious pseudo-Froggy one like a bad cartoon character, I mean the little sloping thing above the letter... but my keyboard won't do it.] > but seriously, what kind of person (personal fantasies about oneself aside) > would y'all pick for xena's partner or soulmate if not gabrielle. i've > thought about who that might be, man or woman, and find it interesting to > contemplate. i guess a better question would be, if you take away the > requirements of the story, what do you think would be the qualities xena > would be attracted to in a life partner or significant other? or > alternatively, if you consider the requirements of the story, how would you > construct her "soulmate" so that the series would work and you wouldn't > dislike the person? > > md Umm, M'Lila. :) And I think it would have worked. Actually, I could scratch my head coming up with lists of attributes, but really it wouldn't count for much, what really matters is how the character is written. I think M'Lila would have been an interesting character to start with. And I know one objection will be, that Xena's soulmate didn't want to be a fighting-type person since there had to be a contrast - but IMO that doesn't hold water, look what Gabby was like in Season 5 and 6. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 20:30:32 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amazon funeral song On Thursday 30 May 2002 03:04, mirrordrum wrote: > oh you absolutely did catch me out. waaaay out. i immediately went to the > famous dirge that lucy sings and wandered off on trails of irrelevance. > you're quite right. which would make me absolutely WRONG! you get the duck. And I wasn't even trying :) It wasn't intended as a trick question. > >And, is it reserved for Amazon Queens? > > drat. now i have to start all over again. bugger. I'm sure you'll come up with something interesting, md. You always do. (snip) > > > > > > and gwyn-tier who got it at helicon. xena probably dirged for all the > > > fallen after they all regained what was left of their scattered senses. > > > >Hmm, but Gwyn-tier, like Solari, I didn't list 'cos they're not royalty. > >Snobbish, that's me ;) > > i thought gwyn-tier was a northern queen. not? i'll have to go check it > out. i too was tempted to list solari who was, clearly, ephiny's right hand > woman but not, one suspects, of the royal "line." she was perhaps a peer of > the realm? OAN? (order of the amazon nation?) Hmmm. If so, I missed it. Yes, Solari was prominent in - umm, what was the Amazon ep before Endgame? - oooh, way back in Necessary Evil! (Sin Trade was a diferent bunch of Amazons). Gosh that was a big gap. > > > >Varia - not dead but demoted/deposed by Gabby > > > > > > yeah but she got a battlefield re-promotion and was still standing when > > > they left. > > > >You mean, anyone still standing moves up a rank? ;) > > no, i mean gabby who for some mysterious reason gets to make these > decisions repromoted (i'm sure there's a technical word for that) her with > a significant handclasp and a "to a strong amazon nation" salute. and xena > after all had great faith in her, that ought to count with you, dude. *and* > she was still standing altho given time, they'd have killed her off too i > ffeel sure. Yep, I don't know where Gabs got the authority to demote Vria in the first place. After Marga died, Solari was the ranking Amazon queen, I think. Maybe it was one of those moments when she who moves fastest wins, like Velasca did when she took over after Gabs rode off on Xena's coffin in The Quest. Gabs was still legally the queen and Velasca had absolutely no legal authority to give orders. > > > >I rather think Gabby should abdicate..... > > > > > > helicon's ablazin'. she shoulda abdicated *before* so many of them got > > > killed. i may be a gabfan but i know a not so much amazon queen when i > > > see one. these honorary degrees are all very well once in a way but not > > > if you're expected to be able to do something with them. > > > >ROTFL!!! > > > >Not that I don't agree with you, but I wasn't thinking so much about > > Gabby's qualities of generalship, as her own life expectancy. :) > > i know, i know. i'm just saying life expectancy be damned, she had no > bizniss queening in the first place. although it was sort of fun at > first--senseless but fun (for a gabfan). Yeah. I liked Amarice's comment at the end of Endgame. G: You _are_ a kid. A: Right, and you're a warrior. Incidentally, did you notice, when Amarice was released from jail, Xena told her "Gabrielle has pardoned you. Let's go" and Brutus said to her "Xena doesn't give many second chances, little girl". Brutus certainly had his own opinion about who was running things. ;) > > > at least gab had the good sense to > > > > > want to pas hers on to ephiny. excellent choice, imo. > > > >Yes, have to agree with that. Though Eph did go and marry an outsider > >(well, I guess anyone capable of helping produce more Amazons would hafta > > be an outsider, if you see what I mean, but still...) > > and you would have had her marry. . .whom? are you one of those people > who're centaurphobic? Nah, I'm broadminded. When two - umm, sentient entities are deeply in love, who needs to count the legs? Or tentacles? Or pseudopodia? But centaurs and amazons were alike in one way - that they needed outside help in order to produce more centaurs or amazons. If you follow me. Hmm, I'm a little suprised the Amazons didn't have some regulation that Amazon queens at least had to stay celibate so as to devote all their energies to their tribe. Like the Pope. Maybe they did and Ephiny ignored it. She strikes me as that kind of girl. > >(If the offspring is female, of course.... if male, they'd be centaurs) > > ws that finally established somewhere? i forget. i remember doing a lot of > searching about centaurs and things but i don't recall the upshot. it fell > through a hole in my brain. Steve Sears, I think, said it: There are no female centaurs. Sorry I can't remember the URL, it may have been on Whoosh. > > > ramble. (snip - regretfully :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:45:18 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amazon funeral song Oops!! On Thursday 30 May 2002 20:30, cr wrote: > > > > >Varia - not dead but demoted/deposed by Gabby > > > > > > > > yeah but she got a battlefield re-promotion and was still standing > > > > when they left. > > > > > >You mean, anyone still standing moves up a rank? ;) > > > > no, i mean gabby who for some mysterious reason gets to make these > > decisions repromoted (i'm sure there's a technical word for that) her > > with a significant handclasp and a "to a strong amazon nation" salute. > > and xena after all had great faith in her, that ought to count with you, > > dude. *and* she was still standing altho given time, they'd have killed > > her off too i ffeel sure. > > Yep, I don't know where Gabs got the authority to demote Vria in the first > place. After Marga died, Solari was the ranking Amazon queen, I think. > Idiot prat! I *meant*, after Marga died, _Varia_ was the ranking Amazon queen. D'ohhhhh. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 06:15:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Sarah Anne Packard Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] "Dark Angel"? > This is bittersweet for me ... I love DARK ANGEL (and think the season - > now series - finale left WAY too many things just dangling in the wind), > but I'm glad to see that we won't have to wait until next year to see > FIREFLY. :( I'm intrigued about Firefly as well (and that's the one Gina Torres is in, right?), but I'd rather keep Dark Angel, I've gotten too hooked on it. :( I even have a big-ass Dark Angel poster in my living room! (Guess that will now become a collector's item...) It's white with a full-body pic of Max in all black...and ironically the tagline calls it "James Cameron's hit series". Hmph. Sigh...my roommate and I are despondent. > > I haven't been able to find any follow-up stories to indicate whether there > is any chance another network might save DARK ANGEL (like, say, UPN or even > Sci-Fi). I'm thinking chances are slim, though, since the production costs > were just so high. At the very least, I'd like to see FOX give > Cameron a two-hour telefilm so the show can at least get properly wrapped > up. It's almost criminal to leave things just hanging like that. > I thought along those lines last night too...I was like, "hey, wouldn't it be awesome if James Cameron made a Dark Angel movie??" Jessica Alba on the big screen...but a TV-movie would be cool too. :) And yes, there are way too many unresolved plot questions!! Like, who are those snake people? What's gonna happen to White? How is Max gonna save the world? Will we ever get to meet the mysterious "Sandeman"? Will Logan get the damn virus cured so he and Max can make sweet love? Will Original Cindy ever get a damn girlfriend?? :) And what will happen to Joshua, Alex, and all the rest of the happy mutant (and non-mutant) crew? I need to know!! The finale left everything just hanging wide open, unfortunately...and I just assumed it would be back in the fall...sigh. > (For the non-viewer, imagine if X:WP had gotten cancelled the week after > "Sacrifice II" aired ... it's not quite THAT bad cliffhanger-wise, but it's > not that far off.) > I bet James Cameron isn't happy about it, either...by the way, is there any kind of "save Dark Angel" campaign going on online? > Apparently the producers are nosing around for a possible replacement, > should Butler not be able to keep her commitment to the show. When I read > this I immediately thought of LL as well ... though it's probably not the > sort of thing she'd want to do at the moment. Too close to typecasting for > comfort. I want Yancy back cuz she's awesome as Pezzini, but, if they *must*...how about our own Hudson Leick? :) Hudson actually was going to audition for it but missed the audition or something like that, apparently! > I hear Jessica Alba is looking for a job ... I think she's a little young to play Pez though...sigh, I will miss seeing her racing around on her bike every week, clad head to toe in black leather or some such thing. My roommate and I have such a crush on her. -Sarah, aka the abbagirl- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:15:52 +0000 From: "Megaera _" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] "Dark Angel"? I saw this line and agree with you. At least to have an ending for the series. I'm very surprised they cancelled this show, it was still blossoming and, oh well. In any event, I hope they at least think about it. Meg >From: Sarah Anne Packard >To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] "Dark Angel"? >Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 06:15:17 -0400 (EDT) > >....I thought along those lines last night too...I was like, "hey, > >wouldn't it be awesome if James Cameron made a Dark Angel movie??" .... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:39:39 +0000 From: "Megaera _" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Witchblade (was "Dark Angel"?) I have been out of the loop way to long. What happened with Witchblade? Or someone was ill in the cast? I know it's starting in June. My appolgies if this has already been talked about. I think Lucy would be great in this role; I wonder though if she wants to get back into this type of butt kicking role. I still like the woman who played Varia (forgot her name). I'm hoping she will get something soon. Meg >From: cjlnh@webtv.net (Cheryl LaScola) >To: abbagirl@cyberspace.org (Sarah Anne Packard) >CC: chakram-refugees@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] "Dark Angel"? >Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 22:18:05 -0400 (EDT) > >Regarding Yancy Butler and Witchblade... I didn't know the news about >ceasing production and the rehab thing, but I always thought Lucy could >be great in that role... Maybe we should petition TNT??.... > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:55:28 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena and Buffy (os) # # # # # # # # # i put some spoilerspace her for the Buffy people. I was curious about how Buffy fans reacted to Tara's death and Willow's little psychotic episode. When RT killed Xena off and sent Gabrielle off on her own (more or less) there was some criticism that Rob had betrayed the lesbian fans by "punishing" Xena and Gabrielle for being gay (i don't remember if that opinion was voiced here but I did hear it in some quarters.) I was wondering if Josh Whedon has been similarly criticized. He not only killed off one of his lesbian characters but turned the other one into a evil-doer rescued from her darkside by a man (gasp). Poor Willow doesn't even get Buffy to save her only Zander. For the record I watch Buffy and like it very much and Willow is my favorite character and I was sorry to see Tara go (granted she may be resurrected). I also sometime ago predicted Tara would bite the dust (she just had red-shirt stamped on her forehead) and I was critized for that observation - but I was right (small evil gloat). CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #145 **************************************