From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #111 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, April 28 2002 Volume 02 : Number 111 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [Sekhmet209@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating [Sojourner > [Mirrordrum ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [Mirrordrum ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating [Mirrordrum When Gabrielle first joined up with Xena I always assumed Xena tolerated > Gabrielle for a couple of reasons. I always believed that Gabrielle in some > ways reminded Xena of her little brother Lyceus - I always thought of him as > a > loveable puppy type. Second Gabrielle distracted Xena from her dark > thoughts > and in all probability cheered her up. Of course now we all know that Xena > has a soft spot of young women in trouble - Milia, Akemi, and the briefly > appearing Anakin (Sin Trade). Xena apparently just couldn't resist any girl > who asks "take me with you". > LOL! I always thought it was initially because Gabrielle reminded her of herself -- of what she'd had and almost lost. The courage to stand up for her convictions and her people, to be different and pursue her own path, to risk everything on a decision no one else understood. When Gabrielle said at the campfire in Sins that it was hard proving you weren't who people thought, I believe Xena saw a kindred spirit that deserved a chance like the one she herself sought. And that maybe she no longer had to be alone in that quest. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 01:10:37 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 4/27/2002 8:24:28 PM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > As to why he didn't execute her straight > away, before Xena - umm, maybe he was still a bit afraid of Xena's abilities > > and reasoned that Xena was less likely to do something dramatic if she had > Gabrielle to preoccupy her thoughts. Whereas executing Gabs would really > have sent Xena off the deep end. > > Or maybe he just liked to have the appearance of legality - Xena was > obviously guilty of attempted assassination, it would have needed a little > time to produce some evidence of Gabby's 'guilt'. Certainly Gabrielle was useful as a hostage to keep Xena in line, but she was also the perfect "witness" for Ming Tien's needs. "Legally," she was Xena's main accuser of a crime in the present, which would also help settle a score from the past. Emotionally, it was probably quite satisfying to him that she was both betrayer and friend. (Payback for Xena as well as the mother who wanted him made small again.) In terms of his twisted "justice," how better to make Xena truly suffer than to have Gabrielle watch her die horribly? Somewhere inside, I think his ego needed someone "pure" to understand that he wasn't a monster, but simply a reasonable ruler punishing a criminal who deserved it -- proving that he was "bigger" than Xena after all. Or, maybe he was just saving Gabrielle for desert. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 18:30:34 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> On Sunday 28 April 2002 15:19, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/27/2002 3:59:35 AM Central Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Just personally, I think Xena was quite as interesting and strong all by > > herself, without needing someone .. err, less competent? ;) - to > > highlight it. > > Oh, no doubt I'd've watched it solely for Xena. I'm simply saying that, in > retrospect, Gabrielle added contrast, humanity, humor, warmth, etc. that > made Xena and her context more multi-dimensional for me. Gab's consistent > presence provided both stability in their chaotic universe, as well as > sufficient inner turmoil for Xena's growth. In the end, my newfound > respect for Gab's journey was an unexpected benefit in itself that also > heightened my appreciation for Xena. Umm, I didn't actually say there that Gabs was superfluous, did I? Referring now _only_ to the question of Xena as an interesting and strong character, I do think that would have showed up in contrast to the average run of weekly guest characters. Quite without Gabrielle or any other accompanying 'regular' (Joxer comes to mind) to highlight it by contrast. I don't want my love of debating this to make me sound too much like a Gab-hater, because most of the time I'm not. There are just a few occasions when I wish Gabs wasn't there, and quite often it's when Xena is showing a sentimental side and saying "Gabrielle, you are my *life* " - which comes back to Xena's weaknesses, doesn't it? ;) It happened quite a lot in Season 4, IIRC. I don't mind Xena having feelings for Gabby, but IMO Xena Warrior Princess would find it very difficult to let her guard down and say so. I'd find it more in character and more to my taste if her concern was shown in more subtle ways. I'm quite happy, for example, that Xena travelled all the way to Siberia to search for Gabby in Sin Trade. That seems in character. But, to me, what would have been in character if she'd found Gabby would be, not a big sentimental scene as in later Season 4, but something like the end of When Fates Collide - "Hi, how're ya doin, hop on the horse and let's go" sort of thing. Understated. > I had no trouble understanding, accepting and admiring Xena from the > beginning. While I wasn't always comfortable with the lessons and > challenges Gabrielle represented for Xena, it was because it was in areas > where I too could learn a few things. I happen to like expanding my > perspectives, even if I have to be dragged kicking and screaming. IOW, > Gabs ultimately provided more personal education for me, even though I > tuned in to see butt-kicking and qualities I already liked and continued to > like throughout the series. Could I have gotten that through a character > other than Gabrielle, or if she'd been presented differently? Possibly. > I'm just saying what I did get from Gabby acheived that for *me,* tho I > understand that maybe she didn't for you, or that that's not what you tuned > in for anyway. > > -- Ife I think my point of view is not that far away from yours. I want to like Gabby in principle (cos it's pretty stupid to go on watching a show where yer hate one of the major characters, innit?) and most of the time I do. Just every now and then the writers make Gabby do something really annoyingly dumb. Of course, so does Meg, Joxer and on rare occasions Xena herself. Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 19:38:29 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> On Sunday 28 April 2002 15:55, Mirrordrum wrote: > At 09:32 PM 4/27/2002 +1200, cr wrote: > >On Saturday 27 April 2002 13:38, Mirrordrum wrote: > > > At 12:54 PM 4/27/2002 +1200, cr wrote: > > > >my main reservation is still, that I just can't see Xena the > >Warrior Princess putting up with Season 1 Gabby for even half a minute. > > In the Herc trilogy she was not the sort of person to put up with > > lightweight characters. She barely tolerated Salmoneus. > > > >What this means, I guess, is that they didn't build up the reasons Xena > >tolerated Gabby strongly enough. > > you know how much i love discussing things with you and how i hate > agreeing, but i have to confess that i do actually agree with you on that > point. it's taken me until now to do so largely, i expect, because i always > liked gabrielle and i was *so* smitten with the image of xena heaving her > up behind her on argo the first time. that was the very first xena image i > ever saw. *sigh* > > at the same time, over the past couple of days i've been contemplating once > again what kind of person, other than gabrielle, xena might reasonably have > been expected to connect up with now that she's redeeming herself. to be > consonant with the story line, it's got to be someone who's naive and > innocent in order for xena to reveal herself slowly & so that they don't > have competing dark pasts. it has to be someone with the stubborn > persistence of a cocklebur in order to be willing to stick to xena through > thick and thin. it has to be someone unskilled who will *never* overshadow > xena's competence. and it has to be someone who'll get them into scrapes > and be wrong all, or most, of the time. i would say it also has to be > someone with whom xena wouldn't become romantically involved. well, that's > pretty much gabrielle. Since you put it that way.... I think you've convinced me. (But I can just hear the explosion from the subtext camp over your last sentence 8-) OK, if it was someone else, they'd have to be not that different from Gabby. Which means it might as well *be* Gabby, doesn't it? ;-) > > I agree that, given Gabby's presence, her goofiness and Xena's reaction > >provided the comic relief. Just that her presence is, for me, a bit of a > >YAXI, certainly in the first season. > > i think if you take xena as a person it really is, of course. she's too > competent to tolerate minor incompetence let alone gross incompetence. to > be quite frank, the only possible *logical* reason i can come up with is > that it's maternal. even a sororal connection doesn't really work for me. Yup. And maybe she was feeling really really depressed to the point where she couldn't raise the mental energy necessary to chase Gabby away conclusively. > as i've been watching the very early eps again--and i've not paid close > attention to them for awhile--i've been looking at the development of their > relationship and particularly at xena's affectional attachment to > gabrielle. for me that's really demonstrated first in when xena > discovers gab w/ whatsisname and is clearly bothered. for me, that's the > first time where i thought they (tptb) were suggesting that xena is really > attached to gabrielle. naturally, being a subtexter, i am inclined to > interpret it in that light but i think it can be seen in all kinds of ways. > point is, it suggests that xena has begun to care more than one might have > reason to expect. Odd sorta subtexter ;-) I'm trying to think where Gabby was first useful (other than her speech in Amphipolis in SotP). Cradle of Hope comes to mind, where Gabby tracked down one of the castle servants and found Xena a way into the castle. > >I suppose this comes in the same category as Gabby going to warn Ming Tien > >or Xena doing the Gabdrag - all are credible given adequate build-up, but > >'build-up' can be rather boring which is why they (probably wisely) didn't > >spend too much time on it. > > yes, i think that's so. iirc, lucy said at that in the early > innings subtext gave them (her and renee) something to work with or play > against. i forget what words she used & am too lazy to go look. anyway, it > was useful to them. the word "subtext" gets used very loosely and i don't > use it in its sexual sense, and i doubt she did, but rather just to refer > to the importance of the relationship itself. > > > so xena would have had to be much more reflective and her > > > > > angst would probably have come from her sensitive nature > > > (carborundum-coated, of course) rather than her dark past. > > > >Well, in my Xena-centric view of things, XWP is very like what you > > describe. > > poetic, introspective, philosophical and sensitive, you mean? interesting. > that's not xena as i see her. at least, i don't think it is. I think you're taking one sentence out of context, md. And I was being a bit loose in my comments. > > Simply because I'm primarily interested in Xena, and Gabby is of no more > >significance to me (except when she's too obtrusively annoying :) than > >Joxer or Callisto. Therefore Xena's doings are what I notice and rarely > > do the other characters assume the same importance or prominence in my > > consciousness. > > it's one of the wonders of the show, i think, that it can appeal to people > like you who really don't pay much attention to gabrielle and people like i > am who pay close attention to both characters and really enjoy gabrielle. i > just like them both for such different reasons--both the characters and the > actors. Oh yes, I've said in the past that there's plenty for everyone. That's one of the good things about the show. > >Having said that, Gabby's doings are not of total disinterest to me, any > > more than Callisto's or Joxer's are. Xena obviously has to have other > > characters to interact with, and Gabs is one of them. > > yes, i can see that. very different from my viewpoint but of course quite > understandable those whose sense of taste is impaired>. ;-> One does, does one? One might say that is a very good strategy, considering as one's own sense of taste might be called into question by those whose sense of taste is the opposite to one's own, mightn't one? 8-] > > > >It makes Xena's 'weak point' (or whatever we call it) just rather too > > > > big and potentially devastating for my liking. > > > > > > except that xena's weak point *is* devastating. any hero's weak point > > > is devastating. look at achilles' pride. there he sits sulking in his > > > tent while his best friend/lover (whatever) gets killed. and his > > > physical weak point was so devastating that they made it an epithet. or > > > whatever that's called. > > > >Yes, but a weak point doesn't have to be quite so obtrusive. ;) > > is this the part where, if i'm liz, i call you a wanker? ;-) Oh no, that point has long been passed. Liz would be hurling thunderbolts in my direction by now, I think. ;-) > > > > I could have credited M'Lila now.... but M'Lila got killed > > > > (sob). > > > > > > well but you can't have the person who teaches xena the pinch go on and > > > be her side-kick, now can you? she > > > wouldn't be a foil at all. it has to be someone who makes xena's > > > xenaness stand out. > > > >Well there I disagree. I think M'Lila could have made an excellent > > sidekick for Xena. > > oh *so* not! noooooo. for one thing, she's dark-haired and of dark > complexion. never do. i know both herc and iolaus were blonde, but that > wouldn't work w/ xena. sidekick's got to be blonde. So she can be dumb? ;-) > also she didn't speak > any of the languages that xena understood. i guess xena learned gaelic > *after* latin, chinese, japanese and nordic. what would boadicea have > spoken, btw? i'm at an historical loss & feeling lazy. i need to go look up > about languages. Well, that occurred to me, *but* Xena was pretty good at languages, they certainly could have learned each other's languages and in fact that would have been an interesting human element. > let's see. what else. well, she was too good at things. > she wouldn't have made stupid mistakes, she was so competent that she could > have sacrificed herself for xena and gotten away with it--as indeed she > did. of course, if she'd been the sidekick, tptb could have brought her > back. hmmmm. no, she was just too damn good and too quiet. never would have > worked. i mean, it would have worked maybe as a story, but not as this > particular story. I'll have to admit, I just thought M'Lila was gorgeous. :) And I would have loved to see more of her. > > And she did have a dry sense of humour.... like when Xena made > >her show Xena the pinch and she pretended to be wondering whether to > > bother to take it off. I'd love to have seen some back-story episodes > > with Xena and M'Lila.... but now we never will. > > well but the relationship was pretty short-lived. literally. there wasn't > any real backstory. Yes, but since we're in the realms of 'what if', they could certainly have avoided having her killed in the hut in Destiny. Xena had oodles of backstory with Borias, Alti et al.... so she could certainly have had M'lila along for the ride. > i don't so much mind. xena & boadicea, yeah, that i'd > have liked to see. xena and marcus, definitely! i thought they had great > chemistry. I can't see Xena and Boadicea as hero and sidekick, at all. Uneasy allies, possibly.... but then, Xena dropped Boadice in it, didn't she? > > > >Thelonius > > > >... I hate chatty food - the blind cyclops > > > > > > and without the irritating blonde sidekick, you don't have half the > > > lovely smart ass lines in the series. she occasions them, she doesn't > > > deliver them. > > > >Well yes, but anyone would have done for that. > > that's cold, thelo! and they would not. that's about the best i can come up > with: would not. but i say it wholeheartedly. in the first place, what > other actor would have tolerated the cold shoots, long hours, never chaffed > at appropriate second billing, never have upstaged, and generally been as > supportive as. . .oh, never mind. ;-p place, mulder. . .there *isn't* any second place."> Hey, I'm talking about Gabby here, not ROC! If we're talking about Xena's lovely smartass lines, then I do say almost anyone would do for a foil - Auto, Joxer, the warlord of the week, whoever. I think. As for ROC, I entirely agree with what you said. I have the warmest admiration for ROC. Since they had decided that Gabby was going to last for the entire series, they were very lucky to choose her. I draw a complete distinction between the actors and the characters they portray. > > > > of course whether or not xena would become so devoted to this person > > > (the nascent battling bard). . .well, that's another question. i can > > > see it mostly because lucy and renee made it real for me. they made me > > > believe it even when the scripts didn't. > > > >It certainly does depend entirely on the acting, yes. But I think you're > >talking about 'the relationship', which came later. > > no i am not. i'm talking about very early eps. OK. I'm not sure I noticed any 'relationship' or whatever it is you saw between them in the first few eps. But we know I'm not really switched on to that sort of thing > > Yes I accept that a > >friendship sprang up. What I have trouble crediting is how it got off the > >ground in the first place. > > yeah, well. what i said way up at the top there. irl? well, hell, irl > there's no xena. as you've said often and often, if you're looking for > logic, you've come to the wrong place. :-) Have I? I expect I have, at some time or other. I say so many things, and if TPTB can get away with the odd lapse of continuity I don't see why I can't [grumble] > > I did find the presence of Gabs more credible after the first few > > episodes. > >I suppose, after I got used to the idea that she was a fixture, and Xena > >could be presumed to have got used to having her around. > > chuckle. poor thelo. forced to watch the irritating blonde week after week > just to get to see xena. the lengths to which a devoted fan will go, eh? > breaks my heart, so it does. hah! I would not in the least dream of suggesting that, were I liz, I would by now have found an appropriately descriptive epiphet for you..... > i can imagine it now. it's the end of sacrifice 2. gabrielle takes down > hope. thelo cheers. season 4 starts and gab is nowhere in sight. Yes, that was good ;) And, lemme see, Sin Trade had Borias and Alti in it and it was also Joxer free. I was in heaven! :) > thelo has > hope, so to speak. but then, alas, she's back. thelo groans. And in a comedy, too. Family Affair _was_ a comedy, right? With Dinsdale, the Destroyer? The big guy in the rubber suit with the spikes? Looked like the only thing he'd destroy would be the soft furniture.... > you were very > brave to put up with gabrielle out of sheer devotion to xena. If Xena can do it, I can do it ;) > for me, it > was all a pleasure. except for and . and possibly > . > > >Please excuse all my contradictions - I do love debating with you, md! :) > > chortle. imagine you apologizing to me for contradictions after all these > years. i'm a truly happy camper now. and back atcha, thelo. > > md Of course, my apology did not disbar me from contradicting you at every opportunity in the future Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 19:47:00 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Sunday 28 April 2002 17:10, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/27/2002 8:24:28 PM Central Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > As to why he didn't execute her straight > > away, before Xena - umm, maybe he was still a bit afraid of Xena's > > abilities > > > and reasoned that Xena was less likely to do something dramatic if she > > had Gabrielle to preoccupy her thoughts. Whereas executing Gabs would > > really have sent Xena off the deep end. > > > > Or maybe he just liked to have the appearance of legality - Xena was > > obviously guilty of attempted assassination, it would have needed a > > little time to produce some evidence of Gabby's 'guilt'. > > Certainly Gabrielle was useful as a hostage to keep Xena in line, but she > was also the perfect "witness" for Ming Tien's needs. "Legally," she was > Xena's main accuser of a crime in the present, which would also help settle > a score from the past. Emotionally, it was probably quite satisfying to > him that she was both betrayer and friend. (Payback for Xena as well as > the mother who wanted him made small again.) In terms of his twisted > "justice," how better to make Xena truly suffer than to have Gabrielle > watch her die horribly? Umm, execute Gabby first and make Xena watch her die horribly? ;-) > Somewhere inside, I think his ego needed someone > "pure" to understand that he wasn't a monster, but simply a reasonable > ruler punishing a criminal who deserved it -- proving that he was "bigger" > than Xena after all. Yes, I think you've probably got it right. I can't see any other reason why he'd bother debating with Gabby. > Or, maybe he was just saving Gabrielle for desert. > > > -- Ife Ooh, now that *is* nasty :) T ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 03:48:23 EDT From: Sekhmet209@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> In a message dated 4/27/02 11:55:33 PM, jbuckner@utk.edu writes: >Thelonius wrote: >>md wrote: >> > and without the irritating blonde sidekick, you don't have half the lovely >> > smart ass lines in the series. she occasions them, she doesn't deliver >> > them. >> >>Well yes, but anyone would have done for that. > >that's cold, thelo! and they would not. that's about the best i can come >up >with: would not. but i say it wholeheartedly. in the first place, what >other actor would have tolerated the cold shoots, long hours, never chaffed >at appropriate second billing, never have upstaged, and generally been as >supportive as. . .oh, never mind. ;-p place, mulder. . .there *isn't* any second place."> You're confusing the actor with the character! Renee may have been just as saintly as you describe, but Gabrielle whined about "not getting enough credit" all the time. ;-) To which my response was always "look, honey, YOU wrote the damned scrolls; if you wanted more credit you could have done something about it" --which leads to my hypothesis that most of the scrolls were written not during or immediately after the events they describe, but by a much older and wiser Gabrielle, who was able to look back and laugh at her earlier hubris and naivete-- otherwise how can one explain "The Play's the Thing"? - --Sekhmet ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 12:34:47 +0100 From: Sojourner Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating At 19:51 27/04/2002 -0400, Cheryl Ande wrote: >Let's star here. I mostly agree with md when she said among other things that >Gabrielle's character was certainly based on Daneria and all other young >spunky blondes ever conceived in TV land. Gabrielle began life as comic >relief. I never found 1st season Gabrielle annoying (I experienced annoyance >in the 4th season). Yes she was naive and innocence and in the first half of >the season she got into oodles of trouble. By the second half of the first >season she had gained confidence and was beginning to help Xena more than >hinder her. What's more Gabrielle began to developed as a character more than >a stereotype. This is of course due I believe to the partnership that >developed between Renee and Lucy and the interest Steven Sears took in >Gabrielle's character. > >When Gabrielle first joined up with Xena I always assumed Xena tolerated >Gabrielle for a couple of reasons. I always believed that Gabrielle in some >ways reminded Xena of her little brother Lyceus - I always thought of him as a >loveable puppy type. Second Gabrielle distracted Xena from her dark thoughts >and in all probability cheered her up. Of course now we all know that Xena >has a soft spot of young women in trouble - Milia, Akemi, and the briefly >appearing Anakin (Sin Trade). Xena apparently just couldn't resist any girl >who asks "take me with you". > >CherylA My long held theory is the Xena just looooooves young women who through themselves at her. To paraphrase your comment ... Xena apparently just couldn't resist any girl who asks "take me!" Gabby must have been one hot tamale in the sack, that's all I can think Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 11:30:02 -0400 From: "Lee Daley" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating > Sojourner WROTE Gabrielle began life as comic > >relief. I never found 1st season Gabrielle annoying (I > experienced annoyance > >in the 4th season). Yes she was naive and innocence and in the > first half of > >the season she got into oodles of trouble. By the second half > of the first > >season she had gained confidence and was beginning to help Xena more than > >hinder her. What's more Gabrielle began to developed as a > character more than > >a stereotype. This is of course due I believe to the partnership that > >developed between Renee and Lucy and the interest Steven Sears took in > >Gabrielle's character. I wonder if in the first season TPTB realized that in many ways the series would become the story of Gabrielle's journey. Certainly it remained the story of Xena's quest for redemption, but Gabrielle's growth from that naive and innocent and irritating (and she was, she probably wouldn't have made it a week, unless, as Sojourner wrote "Gabby must have been one hot tamale in the sack, that's all I can think") to the final, now independant, Gabrielle was one of the joys of the series. And they even left it so Gabrielle's journey could go on. LeeD; Warrior Jester > My long held theory is the Xena just looooooves young women who through > themselves at her. To paraphrase your comment ... > > Xena apparently just couldn't resist any girl who asks "take me!" > Take ME!!!! Me Me Me!!!! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 18:39:04 +0100 From: Sojourner Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating At 11:30 28/04/2002 -0400, Lee Daley wrote: > > Sojourner WROTE > Gabrielle began life as comic > > >relief. I never found 1st season Gabrielle annoying (I > > experienced annoyance > > >in the 4th season). Yes she was naive and innocence and in the > > first half of > > >the season she got into oodles of trouble. By the second half > > of the first > > >season she had gained confidence and was beginning to help Xena more than > > >hinder her. What's more Gabrielle began to developed as a > > character more than > > >a stereotype. This is of course due I believe to the partnership that > > >developed between Renee and Lucy and the interest Steven Sears took in > > >Gabrielle's character. > >I wonder if in the first season TPTB realized that in many ways the series >would become the story of Gabrielle's journey. Certainly it remained the >story of Xena's quest for redemption, but Gabrielle's growth from that naive >and innocent and irritating (and she was, she probably wouldn't have made it >a week, unless, as Sojourner wrote "Gabby must have been one hot tamale in >the sack, that's all I can think") to the final, now independant, Gabrielle >was one of the joys of the series. >And they even left it so Gabrielle's journey could go on. > >LeeD; Warrior Jester > > > > > > My long held theory is the Xena just looooooves young women who through > > themselves at her. To paraphrase your comment ... > > > > Xena apparently just couldn't resist any girl who asks "take me!" > > >Take ME!!!! Me Me Me!!!! OK, sorry, any young nubile woman alive c. 600-1BC (go figure Caesar and Boadicea) whomk she happened to run across and not kill immediately. I, of course, am ruled out straight away, as I am no longer young. Or nubile, or ... oh f*** it. THAT'S why it's called fantasy? Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 15:02:51 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> At 07:38 PM 4/28/2002 +1200, cr wrote: >On Sunday 28 April 2002 15:55, Mirrordrum wrote: > I think M'Lila could have made an excellent > > > sidekick for Xena. > > > > oh *so* not! noooooo. for one thing, she's dark-haired and of dark > > complexion. never do. i know both herc and iolaus were blonde, but that > > wouldn't work w/ xena. sidekick's got to be blonde. > >So she can be dumb? ;-) hmmmm. now that's an idea. my SO's blonde and she agrees with you completely abt the improbability of the early xena-gab relationship. she also said, when i asked her if she had any questions for renee for me to send sharon, "yeah, what was it like working with lucy." so maybe it's not that she's obnoxious & has no taste, just that she's blonde and therefore dumb. btw, i assume you're blonde? md--who must away as the tornado warnings are up, a storm is approaching, and i must off this machine before we're nuked. i'll get back to you, smartass. ;-) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. 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Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 16:29:45 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> At 03:48 AM 4/28/2002 -0400, Sekhmet209@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 4/27/02 11:55:33 PM, jbuckner@utk.edu writes: > >Thelonius wrote: > >>md wrote: > >> > and without the irritating blonde sidekick, you don't have half the >lovely > >> > smart ass lines in the series. she occasions them, she doesn't deliver > >> > them. > >> > >>Well yes, but anyone would have done for that. > > > >that's cold, thelo! and they would not. > >You're confusing the actor with the character! oh rats! i am, aren't i. well phoo. how mortifying. >Renee may have been just as saintly as you describe, not saintly, just a trooper like the rest of 'em. what can i say? i like her work ethic. > but Gabrielle whined >about "not getting enough credit" all the time. ;-) oh but xena always *did* knuckle under to that one so beautifully. and she's so irredeemable about it. they're very like many couples i know. i loved it that xena made gabrielle the fairy godsister of dishes *totally* without thinking about it. and of course got ragged at. very familiar. very familiar indeed. >To which my response was always "look, honey, YOU wrote the damned scrolls; >if you wanted more credit you could have done something about it" that's not the point. and you're hopeless anyway. you probably wouldn't say a positive thing about gabrielle even if xena asked you to. nerts. ;-> > --which >leads to my hypothesis that most of the scrolls were written not during or >immediately after the events they describe, but by a much older and wiser >Gabrielle, who was able to look back and laugh at her earlier hubris and >naivete-- otherwise how can one explain "The Play's the Thing"? i don't think there can be any possible explanation for "the play's the thing." nor for that incredible dreck in , so i'm perfectly willing to buy your thesis. i'd be quite content with the idea that gab went off somewhere after xena's latest death and wrote the *real* scrolls. i kind of liked the "i'm sorry i never read your scrolls" line from but i think a better reply would have been "it's just as well, you'd have hated them" (said with a brave yet wry smile). xena would, too--have hated them, i mean. i love gabrielle, but i certainly hate her writing. that was always a burr under my saddlecloth. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 16:37:43 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating At 12:34 PM 4/28/2002 +0100, Sojourner wrote: >Gabby must have been one hot tamale in the sack, that's all I can think if that's the case, she sure hides it well through the first couple of seasons. as the man said, that must be her strength, like the beautiful seed hidden in the eagles dung. i think it was the nose wrinkling. xena's clearly a sucker for a cute nose. md--who's always wondered what an eagle was doing with seeds in it's dung anyway ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 16:53:57 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating At 06:39 PM 4/28/2002 +0100, Sojourner wrote: >> > Xena apparently just couldn't resist any girl who asks "take me!" >> > >>Take ME!!!! Me Me Me!!!! > >OK, sorry, any young nubile woman alive c. 600-1BC (go figure Caesar and >Boadicea) whomk she happened to run across and not kill immediately. > >I, of course, am ruled out straight away, as I am no longer young. Or >nubile, or ... oh f*** it. at least you're alive, if one can believe rumors to that effect. >THAT'S why it's called fantasy? you catch on so very quickly. :-) md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 18:30:38 EDT From: Gabsfan@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating In a message dated 4/28/02 7:35:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sojourner@paradise.net.nz writes: > Xena apparently just couldn't resist any girl who asks "take me!" > > Gabby must have been one hot tamale in the sack, that's all I can think LOL! Or, from the very beginning, Xena realized that Gabby had the potential to be "one hot tamale in the sack" if she (Xena) was patient. Gabsfan Gabsfan@aol.com "I'll rise, but I refuse to shine." Gabrielle - X:WP "Been There, Done That" ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #111 **************************************