From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #110 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, April 27 2002 Volume 02 : Number 110 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [Mirrordrum ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #109 [Lilli Sprintz ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #109 [cr > ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: Gabrielle irritating [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [Mirrordrum ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 00:28:15 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> In a message dated 4/26/2002 6:50:07 PM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > But did Xena's companion have to be so naive and > irritating? ;-) > (I'm referring to Season 1 Gabby here). > It makes Xena's 'weak point' (or whatever we call it) just rather too big > and > potentially devastating for my liking. > > I could have credited M'Lila now.... but M'Lila got killed (sob). > Oh, gods, you just made me come to a realization I'm not happy with. I tried to picture Xena with someone like M'Lila or Lao Ma. Doing or talking about ... what? Perfecting the flip or pinch? Ruling Chin with mental blasts? Chuckling at Xena's inept attempts to learn such things? Grimly forging ahead together to do something or other I can't imagine? Giving Xena their blessings as she forged ahead alone? I gotta tell ya, I think I prefer my irritation with early Gabby. At least she made Xena seem more competent in the areas the warrior was supposed to be good at, appealingly patient with the things Gabby wasn't good at, and admirably open to areas where she herself could get better at. Thanks a lot, Thelonius. I'm seeing that my girl Xena might not have been as interesting or "strong" early on if she hadn't had Gabby as her foil -- which is opposite to the point I think you were making. Grrrr. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. 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Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 01:42:16 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> At 12:28 AM 4/27/2002 -0400, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > At least she made Xena seem more competent in >the areas the warrior was supposed to be good at, well, you could say gabrielle allows xena's extant competence to be highlighted. and she gives us a legitimate "stance" from which to view xena's feats. > appealingly patient with >the things Gabby wasn't good at, and admirably open to areas where she >herself could get better at. and something else occurred to me as i was brushing my teeth. there is that moment of recognition in where xena sees gabrielle's admittedly pointless courage and scrappiness and a connection is made. when was the last time xena had someone like that care about her so unreservedly and so quickly? the villagers turn on xena, but gabrielle has the guts to follow her. and then the chutzpah to dare to think she could be of some use. so gab gets to tag along--and that's all she is at first. in she's actually useful: getting xena into the castle, getting food, skulking about. then i think the first *real* turning point comes in . gabrielle's supposed to keep out of trouble but her concern for xena, which must be nice for a change despite xena's gruff rejection of compassion, actually brings about benefit. she gets talus into the castle and he helps turn the tables. not that it wouldn't have made more sense for xena to simply go to the room where celesta is chained and whack her chains w/ the chaky. *shrug* but she didn't. but the real turning point, imo, is when gabrielle turns to xena in tears at the end and xena (lucy does such a great job) is really touched and baffled. but she *is* someone with compassion or else warlording wouldn't have bothered her. and she is someone who wants to be loved, not just lusted after. she can get all the lust she wants. gabrielle actually turns to her in trust not as a protector but as a friend and supporter. that's rare for xena and xena, remember, is hurting bad. > Thanks a lot, Thelonius. I'm seeing that my >girl Xena might not have been as interesting or "strong" early on if she >hadn't had Gabby as her foil -- which is opposite to the point I think you >were making. Grrrr. this is what i'm saying. it doesn't mean you have to like gabrielle any more nor adore xena any less. gabrielle serves a function. i happen to be one of the people who enjoys her while she's doing it, but i recognize it *as* a function: to make xena more impressive by contrast. and she (xena) also takes on the tutorial role which can and often does develop into a close emotional bond between two people. so gabrielle allows us to see xena's soft side but because she's so bloody irritating, she also legitimizes xena's almost stereotypically masculine gruffness and stoicism to come to the forefront. she treats gabrielle, and deservedly so i think, as she might a very inept young servant who needs shaping. in the end, this allows us to watch xena mellow as gabrielle matures. and in the course of it, the strength of their relationship deepens and matures. gabrielle isn't like anyone else xena has ever encountered and loves her in a way no one else ever has. gabrielle doesn't ask for anything except to go with xena, be her friend, and learn from her. in the process, of course, xena learns too. the soulmate thing? well, i'm not a great fan of the soulmate idea so that's pretty irrelevant to me. i just like it that they have fun as well as scrapes and that gabrielle gets to grow up a bit and xena stays xena. md--who is probably babbling more than usual because it's almost 2 a.m.--the lengths i go to for xena, by the gods! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 21:32:04 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> On Saturday 27 April 2002 13:38, Mirrordrum wrote: > At 12:54 PM 4/27/2002 +1200, cr wrote: > > Her friendship with Gabrielle gave her that insight - not > > > > > because Gabby was so wise that she taught it to Xena but because the > > > relationship taught Xena love and tolerance. > > > > > > > > > CherylA > > > >Yes, I realise that. But did Xena's companion have to be so naive and > >irritating? ;-) > >(I'm referring to Season 1 Gabby here). > > sure she did. besides tptb wrote the part specifically for renee who was > essentially the same character in "lost kingdom" and very similar in > whatever that ep was w/ james garner. in both she's young, spunky, and (to > some of us) lovably irrepressible. to others of us, she's just plain > irritating. Well, TPTB didn't always get everything right. (Yes people, that's what I said. ;) [Tomorrow's headline: Thelonius admits TPTB made mistakes!!! :] I certainly think Gabby could have been written a bit less annoying, at the least. > i think what's so good about her character, regardless of > whether one likes or hates her in that role, is that you've just about got > to have those characteristics in order to highlight xena's dark, taciturn, > self-reliant competence. > I understand the point, but I still think Gabs could have been toned down a bit. They could have made the difference between them more subtle. IMO, Xena's dark, taciturn, self-reliant competence is striking enough by itself. > if you make gabrielle as reticent and even mildly as dark as xena, you > don't have contrast and they went for high contrast. i think they pretty > much had to--or at least i think doing that was what created a lot of the > humor in xena's character. at least for me. i mean, you've got to have > gabrielle acting totally goofy to justify some of those marvelous lucy/xena > expressions and xena's generally rude treatment of her. Yes but.... my main reservation is still, that I just can't see Xena the Warrior Princess putting up with Season 1 Gabby for even half a minute. In the Herc trilogy she was not the sort of person to put up with lightweight characters. She barely tolerated Salmoneus. What this means, I guess, is that they didn't build up the reasons Xena tolerated Gabby strongly enough. I agree that, given Gabby's presence, her goofiness and Xena's reaction provided the comic relief. Just that her presence is, for me, a bit of a YAXI, certainly in the first season. I suppose this comes in the same category as Gabby going to warn Ming Tien or Xena doing the Gabdrag - all are credible given adequate build-up, but 'build-up' can be rather boring which is why they (probably wisely) didn't spend too much time on it. > if you think gabrielle was, or should have been, basically supernumerary, > then even in the first season you've got a totally different show. i can't > imagine what that show would have been. a sort of female "have gun will > travel" maybe? or perhaps a character like p.d. james' adam dalgleish. i > think that would be an interesting story (the strong, silent and solitary > heroic woman righting wrongs) and i hope someone does it eventually. of > course, both dalgleish and, iirc, paladin are highly literary types. > dalgleish is a published poet and paladin was, i believe, very > philosophical. so xena would have had to be much more reflective and her > angst would probably have come from her sensitive nature > (carborundum-coated, of course) rather than her dark past. Well, in my Xena-centric view of things, XWP is very like what you describe. Simply because I'm primarily interested in Xena, and Gabby is of no more significance to me (except when she's too obtrusively annoying :) than Joxer or Callisto. Therefore Xena's doings are what I notice and rarely do the other characters assume the same importance or prominence in my consciousness. And I can tell you, looking at it from that point of view, XWP is still a very interesting show. I guess I'm proof of that, since that's the way I do look at it, and I'm still a keen fan after six seasons. Having said that, Gabby's doings are not of total disinterest to me, any more than Callisto's or Joxer's are. Xena obviously has to have other characters to interact with, and Gabs is one of them. > >It makes Xena's 'weak point' (or whatever we call it) just rather too big > > and potentially devastating for my liking. > > except that xena's weak point *is* devastating. any hero's weak point is > devastating. look at achilles' pride. there he sits sulking in his tent > while his best friend/lover (whatever) gets killed. and his physical weak > point was so devastating that they made it an epithet. or whatever that's > called. Yes, but a weak point doesn't have to be quite so obtrusive. ;) > > I could have credited M'Lila now.... but M'Lila got killed (sob). > > well but you can't have the person who teaches xena the pinch go on and be > her side-kick, now can you? where's the fun in that? it has to be someone > who teaches her something relevant to the weak point itself, doesn't it? i > can't even remotely imagine any singing glees or wittiness with m'lila. she > wouldn't be a foil at all. it has to be someone who makes xena's xenaness > stand out. Well there I disagree. I think M'Lila could have made an excellent sidekick for Xena. And she did have a dry sense of humour.... like when Xena made her show Xena the pinch and she pretended to be wondering whether to bother to take it off. I'd love to have seen some back-story episodes with Xena and M'Lila.... but now we never will. > >Thelonius > >... I hate chatty food - the blind cyclops > > and without the irritating blonde sidekick, you don't have half the lovely > smart ass lines in the series. she occasions them, she doesn't deliver > them. Well yes, but anyone would have done for that. > of course whether or not xena would become so devoted to this person (the > nascent battling bard). . .well, that's another question. i can see it > mostly because lucy and renee made it real for me. they made me believe it > even when the scripts didn't. lucy particularly sells it for me--i think > she's the one who had to (be willing to) buy and sell it. she was the one > who had to, as renee says, find the "truth" in it. you know i like renee's > acting, but i believe that if lucy hadn't been willing to open the door > internally to the believability of that bond (however defined) it wouldn't > have worked. > > md It certainly does depend entirely on the acting, yes. But I think you're talking about 'the relationship', which came later. Yes I accept that a friendship sprang up. What I have trouble crediting is how it got off the ground in the first place. I did find the presence of Gabs more credible after the first few episodes. I suppose, after I got used to the idea that she was a fixture, and Xena could be presumed to have got used to having her around. Please excuse all my contradictions - I do love debating with you, md! :) T ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 21:48:09 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> On Saturday 27 April 2002 16:28, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/26/2002 6:50:07 PM Central Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > But did Xena's companion have to be so naive and > > irritating? ;-) > > (I'm referring to Season 1 Gabby here). > > It makes Xena's 'weak point' (or whatever we call it) just rather too > > big and > > potentially devastating for my liking. > > > > I could have credited M'Lila now.... but M'Lila got killed (sob). > > Oh, gods, you just made me come to a realization I'm not happy with. I > tried to picture Xena with someone like M'Lila or Lao Ma. Doing or talking > about ... what? Perfecting the flip or pinch? Ruling Chin with mental > blasts? Chuckling at Xena's inept attempts to learn such things? Grimly > forging ahead together to do something or other I can't imagine? Giving > Xena their blessings as she forged ahead alone? I gotta tell ya, I think I > prefer my irritation with early Gabby. At least she made Xena seem more > competent in the areas the warrior was supposed to be good at, appealingly > patient with the things Gabby wasn't good at, and admirably open to areas > where she herself could get better at. Thanks a lot, Thelonius. I'm > seeing that my girl Xena might not have been as interesting or "strong" > early on if she hadn't had Gabby as her foil -- which is opposite to the > point I think you were making. Grrrr. > > -- Ife Well, there's a big difference between Lao Ma and M'Lila. M'Lila would have been the sidekick, no doubt about it, though a very handy and competent one. But it's obvious, I think, which one of them was top dog - - and both Xena and M'Lila seemed to accept that relationship. Lao Ma, on the other hand, would have been No 1 and Xena her lieutenant. I wonder how long that would have lasted? Xena was unused to being No 2 to anybody. So I think there would have been a major clash sooner or later. Just personally, I think Xena was quite as interesting and strong all by herself, without needing someone .. err, less competent? ;) - to highlight it. The fact you can't visualise Xena with M'Lila or Lao Ma doesn't really count for anything, with respect. I'm not saying you're unimaginative! But many times, I've thought that some particular storyline would be impossible to do in an interesting fashion - and then TPTB have done it and it's worked. Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 22:57:34 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> On Saturday 27 April 2002 17:42, Mirrordrum wrote: > At 12:28 AM 4/27/2002 -0400, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > At least she made Xena seem more competent in > >the areas the warrior was supposed to be good at, > > well, you could say gabrielle allows xena's extant competence to be > highlighted. and she gives us a legitimate "stance" from which to view > xena's feats. The usual function of a sidekick, in fact. (rest respectfully snipped) You know, your 'babblings' as you call them are so well put that, much as I love debating with you, I can't bring myself to disagree with them and I'd only be nitpicking if I did. ;) Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 14:35:34 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #109 Meredith said, Lyre Lyre Amoria (Gillian Iliana Waters - starts with a G, but that's not much Why not cheat just a drop, and make it "Gilliana". Gillian Iliana Waters, whom I thought was one of the stars of Lyre Lyre, might be delighted! But, I see, alas, I am too late. However, Meredith said, "...her "barn name", i.e. the name that people will actually call her > to her face and know her as in casual conversation, is Ephiny. [:)] There > are no restrictions on barn names." cr responded, "I wonder what Danielle Cormack would say if she knew a horse had been named after her character." My response is, if you are a Mercedes Lackey fan, this would be alllll right! Her herald characters (sort of the warrior section of the country) come back, after death, as Companions, with similar names to their previous human names. The Companions, then, are mage-spirits in white horse-like bodies (they say, "don't ever call me a horse!") who "Choose" the next heralds they will work with. Ah...perhaps Ephiny has chosen to come back as a horse. Peachy! ; ) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 15:00:31 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Amazon names Though I missed the Amazon name party, I did find an interesting website I wanted to share with all of you. It is a list of Amazons in known history/myth. With fun luck, it is also part of the Whoosh site, an article called BRAVE WOMEN WARRIORS OF GREEK MYTH: AN AMAZON R OSTER IAXS Research Project No. 326 http://whoosh.org/issue12/ruffel3.html No, there were no other g_____a names that could have been used. L ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 11:23:33 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #109 On Sunday 28 April 2002 07:35, Lilli Sprintz wrote: > Meredith said, > > Lyre Lyre > Amoria (Gillian Iliana Waters - starts with a G, but that's not much (actually I said that....) > Why not cheat just a drop, and make it "Gilliana". Gillian Iliana > Waters, whom I thought was one of the stars of Lyre Lyre, might be > delighted! Hah!! I was thinking of making that exact same suggestion.... but since Amoria and the Lyre Amazons aren't very highly regarded in some circles, and since it wasn't an Amazon's name but the actor's, I refrained. (Myself, I think Amoria's *hot* :) Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 19:51:00 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle irritating Let's star here. I mostly agree with md when she said among other things that Gabrielle's character was certainly based on Daneria and all other young spunky blondes ever conceived in TV land. Gabrielle began life as comic relief. I never found 1st season Gabrielle annoying (I experienced annoyance in the 4th season). Yes she was naive and innocence and in the first half of the season she got into oodles of trouble. By the second half of the first season she had gained confidence and was beginning to help Xena more than hinder her. What's more Gabrielle began to developed as a character more than a stereotype. This is of course due I believe to the partnership that developed between Renee and Lucy and the interest Steven Sears took in Gabrielle's character. When Gabrielle first joined up with Xena I always assumed Xena tolerated Gabrielle for a couple of reasons. I always believed that Gabrielle in some ways reminded Xena of her little brother Lyceus - I always thought of him as a loveable puppy type. Second Gabrielle distracted Xena from her dark thoughts and in all probability cheered her up. Of course now we all know that Xena has a soft spot of young women in trouble - Milia, Akemi, and the briefly appearing Anakin (Sin Trade). Xena apparently just couldn't resist any girl who asks "take me with you". CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 20:00:19 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> "Why Ming would bother to make such a promise to Gabby when he doesn't need anything from her I don't know. Maybe to shut her up? But if I were Gabby I'd tread carefully, considering Ming's tendency to throw people in jail and execute them. In that respect his treatment of Gabby seems odd. Maybe he really is capable of gratitude somewhere deep down, maybe it just amuses him to have her around." Oh I think it amused Ming Tien to see Gabrielle hurl herself against the brick wall that is Xena's will. To be frank once he had executed Xena it would have been Gabrielle's turn. I could just hear him in his reasonable voice saying: "Why Gabrielle if you would betray someone you loved so why wouldn't you betray me whom you hate." Then Gabrielle's head would have hit the floor. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 14:33:18 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Sunday 28 April 2002 12:00, Cheryl Ande wrote: > [cr:] > "Why Ming would bother to make such a promise to Gabby when he doesn't need > anything from her I don't know. Maybe to shut her up? But if I were > Gabby I'd tread carefully, considering Ming's tendency to throw people in > jail and execute them. In that respect his treatment of Gabby seems odd. > Maybe he really is capable of gratitude somewhere deep down, > maybe it just amuses him to have her around." > > > Oh I think it amused Ming Tien to see Gabrielle hurl herself against the > brick wall that is Xena's will. To be frank once he had executed Xena it > would have been Gabrielle's turn. I could just hear him in his reasonable > voice saying: "Why Gabrielle if you would betray someone you loved so why > wouldn't you betray me whom you hate." Then Gabrielle's head would have > hit the floor. > > CherylA Yes, I think you're right there. As to why he didn't execute her straight away, before Xena - umm, maybe he was still a bit afraid of Xena's abilities and reasoned that Xena was less likely to do something dramatic if she had Gabrielle to preoccupy her thoughts. Whereas executing Gabs would really have sent Xena off the deep end. Or maybe he just liked to have the appearance of legality - Xena was obviously guilty of attempted assassination, it would have needed a little time to produce some evidence of Gabby's 'guilt'. But I do agree, I don't think Gabby would have lasted long after Xena died. Not that I'm suggesting she'd want to, certainly not in Ming's company. Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 14:23:44 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Gabrielle irritating On Sunday 28 April 2002 11:51, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Let's star here. I mostly agree with md when she said among other things > that Gabrielle's character was certainly based on Daneria and all other > young spunky blondes ever conceived in TV land. Gabrielle began life as > comic relief. I agree there. And in fact when she started to get too - umm, significant? - - to do that job any more, they had to bring in Joxer to rpelace her, I think. > I never found 1st season Gabrielle annoying (I experienced > annoyance in the 4th season). I *did* find her annoying in S1 - and this may be partly that - IMO - TPTB don't do comedy very well. Which is to say, most of the 'comedies' (with a few notable exceptions) aren't terribly good. They do black comedy and irony extremely well, but that crops up mostly in the dramas. (Maybe that's a reflection of my tastes in comedy). So when they wrote Gabby as a comic character, I didn't like the result. It distracted from the drama, for me. Partly, it's dialogue. I love 'loaded' sentences, like most of Xena's comments in The Debt, just for example. And first-season Gabby just chattered trivially all the time, or so it seemed. So as I said, I found that more irritating than amusing. In Season 4, since you mentioned it, Gabby's 'way' was a bit of a disaster all round, I think. The new fighting Gabby of Season 5 - even though I had some credibility problems with her sudden ability - was a relief. > Yes she was naive and innocence and in the > first half of the season she got into oodles of trouble. By the second > half of the first season she had gained confidence and was beginning to > help Xena more than hinder her. What's more Gabrielle began to developed > as a character more than a stereotype. This is of course due I believe to > the partnership that developed between Renee and Lucy and the interest > Steven Sears took in Gabrielle's character. Yes, agreed. > When Gabrielle first joined up with Xena I always assumed Xena tolerated > Gabrielle for a couple of reasons. I always believed that Gabrielle in > some ways reminded Xena of her little brother Lyceus - I always thought of > him as a loveable puppy type. Second Gabrielle distracted Xena from her > dark thoughts and in all probability cheered her up. Very probably. But I *liked* Xena's dark thoughts ;) > Of course now we all > know that Xena has a soft spot of young women in trouble - Milia, Akemi, > and the briefly appearing Anakin (Sin Trade). Xena apparently just > couldn't resist any girl who asks "take me with you". Good point. Of course, all this was in the future - I mean in future eps, even if in Xena's 'past' - when Sins of the Past aired. So we didn't know this. And so I kept waiting for Xena to give Gabby the elbow, which I thought was the only thing that the character of Xena would do, and she never did. Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 23:19:08 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> In a message dated 4/27/2002 3:59:35 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Just personally, I think Xena was quite as interesting and strong all by > herself, without needing someone .. err, less competent? ;) - to highlight > it. > Oh, no doubt I'd've watched it solely for Xena. I'm simply saying that, in retrospect, Gabrielle added contrast, humanity, humor, warmth, etc. that made Xena and her context more multi-dimensional for me. Gab's consistent presence provided both stability in their chaotic universe, as well as sufficient inner turmoil for Xena's growth. In the end, my newfound respect for Gab's journey was an unexpected benefit in itself that also heightened my appreciation for Xena. I had no trouble understanding, accepting and admiring Xena from the beginning. While I wasn't always comfortable with the lessons and challenges Gabrielle represented for Xena, it was because it was in areas where I too could learn a few things. I happen to like expanding my perspectives, even if I have to be dragged kicking and screaming. IOW, Gabs ultimately provided more personal education for me, even though I tuned in to see butt-kicking and qualities I already liked and continued to like throughout the series. Could I have gotten that through a character other than Gabrielle, or if she'd been presented differently? Possibly. I'm just saying what I did get from Gabby acheived that for *me,* tho I understand that maybe she didn't for you, or that that's not what you tuned in for anyway. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 23:55:27 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> At 09:32 PM 4/27/2002 +1200, cr wrote: >On Saturday 27 April 2002 13:38, Mirrordrum wrote: > > At 12:54 PM 4/27/2002 +1200, cr wrote: >my main reservation is still, that I just can't see Xena the >Warrior Princess putting up with Season 1 Gabby for even half a minute. In >the Herc trilogy she was not the sort of person to put up with lightweight >characters. She barely tolerated Salmoneus. > >What this means, I guess, is that they didn't build up the reasons Xena >tolerated Gabby strongly enough. you know how much i love discussing things with you and how i hate agreeing, but i have to confess that i do actually agree with you on that point. it's taken me until now to do so largely, i expect, because i always liked gabrielle and i was *so* smitten with the image of xena heaving her up behind her on argo the first time. that was the very first xena image i ever saw. *sigh* at the same time, over the past couple of days i've been contemplating once again what kind of person, other than gabrielle, xena might reasonably have been expected to connect up with now that she's redeeming herself. to be consonant with the story line, it's got to be someone who's naive and innocent in order for xena to reveal herself slowly & so that they don't have competing dark pasts. it has to be someone with the stubborn persistence of a cocklebur in order to be willing to stick to xena through thick and thin. it has to be someone unskilled who will *never* overshadow xena's competence. and it has to be someone who'll get them into scrapes and be wrong all, or most, of the time. i would say it also has to be someone with whom xena wouldn't become romantically involved. well, that's pretty much gabrielle. > I agree that, given Gabby's presence, her goofiness and Xena's reaction >provided the comic relief. Just that her presence is, for me, a bit of a >YAXI, certainly in the first season. i think if you take xena as a person it really is, of course. she's too competent to tolerate minor incompetence let alone gross incompetence. to be quite frank, the only possible *logical* reason i can come up with is that it's maternal. even a sororal connection doesn't really work for me. as i've been watching the very early eps again--and i've not paid close attention to them for awhile--i've been looking at the development of their relationship and particularly at xena's affectional attachment to gabrielle. for me that's really demonstrated first in when xena discovers gab w/ whatsisname and is clearly bothered. for me, that's the first time where i thought they (tptb) were suggesting that xena is really attached to gabrielle. naturally, being a subtexter, i am inclined to interpret it in that light but i think it can be seen in all kinds of ways. point is, it suggests that xena has begun to care more than one might have reason to expect. >I suppose this comes in the same category as Gabby going to warn Ming Tien >or Xena doing the Gabdrag - all are credible given adequate build-up, but >'build-up' can be rather boring which is why they (probably wisely) didn't >spend too much time on it. yes, i think that's so. iirc, lucy said at that in the early innings subtext gave them (her and renee) something to work with or play against. i forget what words she used & am too lazy to go look. anyway, it was useful to them. the word "subtext" gets used very loosely and i don't use it in its sexual sense, and i doubt she did, but rather just to refer to the importance of the relationship itself. > so xena would have had to be much more reflective and her > > angst would probably have come from her sensitive nature > > (carborundum-coated, of course) rather than her dark past. > >Well, in my Xena-centric view of things, XWP is very like what you describe. poetic, introspective, philosophical and sensitive, you mean? interesting. that's not xena as i see her. at least, i don't think it is. > Simply because I'm primarily interested in Xena, and Gabby is of no more >significance to me (except when she's too obtrusively annoying :) than >Joxer or Callisto. Therefore Xena's doings are what I notice and rarely do >the other characters assume the same importance or prominence in my >consciousness. it's one of the wonders of the show, i think, that it can appeal to people like you who really don't pay much attention to gabrielle and people like i am who pay close attention to both characters and really enjoy gabrielle. i just like them both for such different reasons--both the characters and the actors. >Having said that, Gabby's doings are not of total disinterest to me, any more >than Callisto's or Joxer's are. Xena obviously has to have other characters >to interact with, and Gabs is one of them. yes, i can see that. very different from my viewpoint but of course quite understandable . ;-> > > >It makes Xena's 'weak point' (or whatever we call it) just rather too big > > > and potentially devastating for my liking. > > > > except that xena's weak point *is* devastating. any hero's weak point is > > devastating. look at achilles' pride. there he sits sulking in his tent > > while his best friend/lover (whatever) gets killed. and his physical weak > > point was so devastating that they made it an epithet. or whatever that's > > called. > >Yes, but a weak point doesn't have to be quite so obtrusive. ;) is this the part where, if i'm liz, i call you a wanker? ;-) > > > I could have credited M'Lila now.... but M'Lila got killed (sob). > > > > well but you can't have the person who teaches xena the pinch go on and be > > her side-kick, now can you? she > > wouldn't be a foil at all. it has to be someone who makes xena's xenaness > > stand out. > >Well there I disagree. I think M'Lila could have made an excellent sidekick >for Xena. oh *so* not! noooooo. for one thing, she's dark-haired and of dark complexion. never do. i know both herc and iolaus were blonde, but that wouldn't work w/ xena. sidekick's got to be blonde. also she didn't speak any of the languages that xena understood. i guess xena learned gaelic *after* latin, chinese, japanese and nordic. what would boadicea have spoken, btw? i'm at an historical loss & feeling lazy. i need to go look up about languages. let's see. what else. well, she was too good at things. she wouldn't have made stupid mistakes, she was so competent that she could have sacrificed herself for xena and gotten away with it--as indeed she did. of course, if she'd been the sidekick, tptb could have brought her back. hmmmm. no, she was just too damn good and too quiet. never would have worked. i mean, it would have worked maybe as a story, but not as this particular story. > And she did have a dry sense of humour.... like when Xena made >her show Xena the pinch and she pretended to be wondering whether to bother >to take it off. I'd love to have seen some back-story episodes with Xena >and M'Lila.... but now we never will. well but the relationship was pretty short-lived. literally. there wasn't any real backstory. i don't so much mind. xena & boadicea, yeah, that i'd have liked to see. xena and marcus, definitely! i thought they had great chemistry. > > >Thelonius > > >... I hate chatty food - the blind cyclops > > > > and without the irritating blonde sidekick, you don't have half the lovely > > smart ass lines in the series. she occasions them, she doesn't deliver > > them. > >Well yes, but anyone would have done for that. that's cold, thelo! and they would not. that's about the best i can come up with: would not. but i say it wholeheartedly. in the first place, what other actor would have tolerated the cold shoots, long hours, never chaffed at appropriate second billing, never have upstaged, and generally been as supportive as. . .oh, never mind. ;-p > > of course whether or not xena would become so devoted to this person (the > > nascent battling bard). . .well, that's another question. i can see it > > mostly because lucy and renee made it real for me. they made me believe it > > even when the scripts didn't. > >It certainly does depend entirely on the acting, yes. But I think you're >talking about 'the relationship', which came later. no i am not. i'm talking about very early eps. > Yes I accept that a >friendship sprang up. What I have trouble crediting is how it got off the >ground in the first place. yeah, well. what i said way up at the top there. irl? well, hell, irl there's no xena. as you've said often and often, if you're looking for logic, you've come to the wrong place. :-) > I did find the presence of Gabs more credible after the first few > episodes. >I suppose, after I got used to the idea that she was a fixture, and Xena >could be presumed to have got used to having her around. chuckle. poor thelo. forced to watch the irritating blonde week after week just to get to see xena. the lengths to which a devoted fan will go, eh? breaks my heart, so it does. hah! i can imagine it now. it's the end of sacrifice 2. gabrielle takes down hope. thelo cheers. season 4 starts and gab is nowhere in sight. thelo has hope, so to speak. but then, alas, she's back. thelo groans. you were very brave to put up with gabrielle out of sheer devotion to xena. for me, it was all a pleasure. except for and . and possibly . >Please excuse all my contradictions - I do love debating with you, md! :) chortle. imagine you apologizing to me for contradictions after all these years. i'm a truly happy camper now. and back atcha, thelo. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. 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