From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #105 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, April 24 2002 Volume 02 : Number 105 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] WFMU Kevin Smith tribute [meredith ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] [chakram-refugees] OT - TV guide covers - Trade anyone? [BElannafan@aol.c] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] Re The Debt ["Cheryl Ande" ] RE: [chakram-refugees] New York Times Article About Oxygen ["Lee Daley" <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 00:37:27 -0400 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] WFMU Kevin Smith tribute Hi, So the tribute to the music of Kevin Smith aired on WFMU this afternoon. For anyone who wasn't able to tune in, the show will be archived on the station's web site. It's not up yet, but in the next day or two it should appear: it'll be at http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/ja. It'll be in streaming MP3, Real Audio and Windows Media formats, for a variety of bandwidths. The segment took up the final hour of the three-hour show. (If you want to hear a very strange melange of totally experimental electronic music interspersed with rarities from the 1970's, feel free to tune in to the first two hours, too. :) Somehow the program's host, John Allen managed to get hold of 7-inch singles and full-length albums from two of the bands Kevin was in in the early 80's, one called Say Yes To Apes and another called Hyphen-Smyth. The Say Yes To Apes stuff ranged from totally whacked lo-fi fare that sounded like a bunch of boys fooling around with a 4-track in somebody's basement (which is probably exactly what it was), to rather sophisticated indie-rock that I'd really like to hear more of soon. The Hyphen-Smyth stuff was mainly instrumental, and at times sounded downright surf-influenced. Apparently there is talk of reissuing this material ... I hope that happens, because I would definitely buy the last double album by Say Yes To Apes. The last song of the hour was from that, and it was absolutely gorgeous. I got the 128-bit stereo MP3 stream captured to hard disk ... if anyone is having a real problem listening to it online, let me know and I'll see what I can do. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html =====Next Up: Molly Zenobia 5/5/02===== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:19:14 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Tuesday 23 April 2002 05:48, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > # > # > # > # > # > ## > # > # > > # > # > > > The Debt 1 & 2 is for my money the best Xena episodes of the series. It > introduces the characters Borias, Xena's upwardly mobile Hun lover, played > with a lot of enthuisiam by Marton Csokas, and young Xena. Lawless's Young > Xena can be regard as a separate character from our regular Xena. This > Xena is feral, cruel, sometimes not terrible bright and oddly vulnerable. > It is a testment to LL lack of ego that she could portray such an unlikable > character - the scene where she spits the wine at young Ming Tien is still > shocking to me. I think a lot of stars would have tried to temper the > unlikability of their character while Lucy seems to relish it. I kinda liked Young Xena. I certainly had sympathy for her when she was betrayed by Borias and hunted by Ming Tzu. But more than that, her portrayal of the would-be Xena the Conqueror - it seemed to me that this was a natural reaction (or compensation maybe) to having been betrayed and crucified by Julius Caesar and forced to flee the territory where she'd been a leader. Or, maybe, I just like Xena ;) > Oley Sasson my favorite Xena director is in rare form here. The opening > shot of Boria's and Xena's chase of Ming Tsu's troops across the plain is > thrilling and something you don't ofter see on a TV series. ... and Rob was a bit upset by how much it cost, reputedly. Or maybe his accountants were. But I think they got their money's worth. (snip) > The adult Ming Tien says Xena made him - taught him how to use terror. To > be frank I don't think Ming Tien would have turned out to be a benevolent > ruler with Ming Tsu as a mentor. Ming Tsu certainly was an example of > cruelity and arogance. The old nature-vs-nurture debate. I think Ming Tien was just a plain nasty character. Xena didn't exactly treat him well - she walled him up in a cave, and was rude to him - but she didn't beat him, she didn't torture him and she didn't go out of her way to terrorise him (other than in the minds of the 'Xena is evil' camp ;). So, he had a frightening experience. He might have learned from this to be a good ruler and never let his subjects suffer the same way. Instead he decided this was a good way to treat his subjects - and reputedly treated them far worse than anything Xena did to him. That, to me, says he was rotten. > What I do think Xena taught him was a comtempt for > his father. Xena kidnaps young Ming right from his father's house, escapes > his clutches, then serves his father dinner without the father noticing > the Chinese serving woman is 6 feet tall with blue eyes, and finally plays > him for a fool before killing him. I loved the irony in that scene. Ming Tzu happily raving on about 'that fool Xena' without noticing that Xena was a foot away holding a knife and restraining herself with difficulty. I'm a sucker for irony. > I think by destroying his image of his > father Ming Tien needs a new hero and the one he choses is young Xena, his > father's destroyer. He could have chosen Lo Mao as a new mentor, after all > she saves his life but Ming Tien has been taught from birth that power is > cruel and brutal so it is natural for him emulate Xena. I think Ming Tsu > made him the man he was but Xena certainly was responsible for refining the > final creation. In the space of a few weeks that Ming Tzu would have taken to come up with the ransom money? OK we know the Patty Hearst syndrome but how long does it last after the victim has been removed from the situation? Just IMO.... > This is perhaps true > but it also true that Lo Mao fails because she makes a fatal mistake. Lo > Mao had a serious flaw - she was ambitious. She wanted to rule Chin and > she wanted to use Ming, Xena, and Boria to do it. She moved too quickly > bringing Borias and Xena togther before Xena had a chance to get Borias out > of her blood and then hooking up Xena and Ming Tsu. She should have known > Ming Tsu was too arrogant to accept Xena as a partner and Xena was still > filled with hate for Ming. In the end Lo Mao overestimated her ability to > control Xena and events. She like so many others tried to use Xena for her > own purposes and thus lost Xena. Nice analysis. And yes, I don't think Lao Ma was as saintly as some of her fans would make out. She did save Xena from Ming's hounds, but it was at least partly because she saw qualities in Xena that she could use. She saw Xena as a lieutenant. Unfortunately for her Xena was still too unruly to accept that - and besides, I don't think Xena ever, in her life, consented to be anybody's lieutenant for long. > Last but not least lets not forget Xena. As the present day Xena, LL did a > great job of demonstrating her ambiguity over what she feels she must do to > stop Ming Tien. The scene where she is sneaking through the castle you can > tell she is really torn about throwing away all she has worked for. The > reconciliation scene in the dungeon is wonderful as she forgives Gabrielle > with humor and a silly request for a nose scratching. I was saying in disgust "Ahhh, she just dropped you right in it, don't let her off so easy!" ;-) But the previous scene, where Xena is wearing the RGD* round her neck and Gabs slaps Xena's face to make her promise not to kill MIng - that was magnificent. Xena did the icy stone face thing and you could almost sense her thoughts boiling behind it. > In the final > confrontation with Ming Tirn we see Xena revulsion as she discovers that > Ming knowingly tortured and killed his own mother. I often wondered if > Xena realized she had killed Ming or if whe is so horrified that she kills > him in reflex. That whole scene was a delight to watch. And really, Ming did almost _beg_ Xena to kill him. He asked for it in spades. If you're confrointing the person who you just tried to execute, and who just blasted your palace out from under you, it is *not* a god idea to taunt them with how you killed someone they revere. And, yes, I think Xena killed him quite deliberately, and justifiably. Quite aside from any feelings she may have had, Ming made it quite plain that he was uncowed by his defeat and it was pretty obvious he'd be back in the sadistic-Emperor business as soon as he could get two guards together. I was a little bothered that Xena lied to Gabs about killing him - not that I care that she lied to Gabs specifically, in my opinion Gabs having nearly got Xena dead wasn't entitled to know anyway - but just that Xena told a lie. I know what she said was "I didn't have to resolve this with murder" which would give a lawyer all sorts of gaps to wriggle through, but the obvious meaning was false. That makes me a little uncomfortable, I wish Xena (or the writers) had phrased it more ambiguously. > As my final word here I often wondered what Xena meant when the guards > taudted her when the said she betrayed by a friend and she relies "No, not > a friend" Did she mean Gabrielle was no longer a friend or that Gbarielle > was more than a friend? > I'm sure she meant 'Gabby is NOT any friend of mine. Not now.' With the implication that no friend would do that. It has more impact that way. > Long post - sorry but it was a great two episodes. > It was indeed. I loved the use of irony in the dialogue. The way Ming Tzu, then Xena, then Borias in turn used the phrase 'and that is a statement of fact'. Or (modern) Xena's comment "I decided to appeal to his sense of family values'. How? By kidnapping his family of course. Cute! "So you and Borias made up?" "Oh yeah, we made up" [Xena and Borias crawl towards each other looking as if they're about to grab each other's throats and suddenly kiss intensely] Or, after Xena wins the dice game (minimum bet a hand): Ming Tzu: You're crazy Borias: Then you're not gonna pay up? Ming: Are you? Borias: Yes. [To Xena] I give you my heart. Nicely put. What makes me think Xena and Borias were on the same wavelength here? This episode was full of these delightful little moments. Almost every line had some hidden overtone or second meaning to it. IMO the writers (Rob and R J) deserve as much praise as the director for this ep. Thelonius *Recycled Garage Door ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:13:56 EDT From: BElannafan@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT - TV guide covers - Trade anyone? Please answer me off the list. I would like to try to get all the TV guide covers for Star Trek this week. I have only found 8 of the different covers in my area. (They don't even have the Janeway cover around here!) Will trade ones I can find for ones you can find. Please respond ASAP as these will come off the stands soon. Thanks ============================================================ Consideration is given, Respect is earned, Jan. You know you're a redneck Jedi when Darth Vader says' "Come with me, Luke. I am your father and your uncle." ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:50:28 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> cr wrote: " The old nature-vs-nurture debate. I think Ming Tien was just a plain nasty character. Xena didn't exactly treat him well - she walled him up in a cave, and was rude to him - but she didn't beat him, she didn't torture him and she didn't go out of her way to terrorise him (other than in the minds of the 'Xena is evil' camp ;). So, he had a frightening experience. He might have learned from this to be a good ruler and never let his subjects suffer the same way. Instead he decided this was a good way to treat his subjects - and reputedly treated them far worse than anything Xena did to him. That, to me, says he was rotten." Well I too believe Ming Tien was rotten, so rotten he was squoshy. I also agree that his time with Xena wasn't long enough to take a good little boy and turn him into an evil little boy. No he was set on that road long before he met Xena. " In the space of a few weeks that Ming Tzu would have taken to come up with the ransom money? OK we know the Patty Hearst syndrome but how long does it last after the victim has been removed from the situation? Just IMO...." Oh I don't think it all happened in the space of the few weeks of Tien's kidnapping. I think he really became fasinated with Xena and probably studied her career in Asia. As we well know she seemed to stick around China for while after meeting Lo Mao since she met Akemi sometime after that. I think he was in someway fascinated with the woman who destroyed his father and since he was taught by his father that power was everything why not try emulate the one who was more powerful than his father. > > > reconciliation scene in the dungeon is wonderful as she forgives Gabrielle> > with humor and a silly request for a nose scratching. " I was saying in disgust "Ahhh, she just dropped you right in it, don't let > her off so easy!" ;-) Well you know I always figured with Xena's need to be punished for her past, present, future crimes, she probably felt she deserved to be dropped in the dungeon and no one had a better right than Gabrielle to do it. You and I might have wished she would have made Gabby grovel a little more but I don't think Xena would have. She wanted to forgive Gabby. >> > That whole scene was a delight to watch. And really, Ming did almost _beg_ Xena to kill him. He asked for it in spades. If you're confrointing the > person who you just tried to execute, and who just blasted your palace out from under you, it is *not* a god idea to taunt them with how you killed someone they revere. Tien ain't the brightest bulb in the pack that goes without saying. I also agree that it was good thing Xena killed him. Ming Tien was not destroyed simply because she blew up the castle. As you say given a couple of guards he would been right back in the sadistic ruler business. In fact in Back In The Bottle his ghost was still a pain in the ass. > " I was a little bothered that Xena lied to Gabs about killing him - not that I care that she lied to Gabs specifically, in my opinion Gabs having nearly got Xena dead wasn't entitled to know anyway - but just that Xena told a lie." That's why wondered if Xena realized she had killed Ming Tien. The whole scene after she killed Ming where she is talking to his corpse is odd. Gabrielle isn't there and yet she is talking to him as if he is alive. If she knew he was dead why have chat with him? If it's deception who is she decieving? had some hidden overtone or second meaning to it. IMO the writers (Rob and R J) deserve as much praise as the director for this ep. Yep I agree! CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:58:56 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cheryl LaScola" > " Hardcore comedy comes off silly most times (Kindred Spirits WWF scene), while her subtle dry humor with attitiude is right on the mark (A Day in the Life). > But of all the emotions she portrayed in 6 years, she knocked me out when she showed her vulnerability. ...> Somehow just her unshed tears and expressions could make me cry.... like in the Abyss. > > I wonder where Lucy's career will end up (provided she wants to continue one), because she has so much to offer if given a chance at richer dramas with depth of character, that' s where I think she excels." I agree I thing Lucy does excel in drama. My favorite episodes are the dramas especial Doctor and The Abyss. She also is great in those large operatic moments such as those seen in part 1 od Sin Trade. I liked her very much in the X-Files where she gave a nice understated performance which was far too brief. I wish she could have done more with that character. As for the comedies she does has a nice dry manner as in Day In The Life and Been There or even Fins. She however seems to like to be the clown also and she has to be retrained by her director and if he either isn't strong enough to do it or is prone to it also you get embarrassing silly stuff. >CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:06:29 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re The Debt Meredith wrote: "And let's not forget the "ohsh*t" factor!! I was a complete mess during the week between parts 1 and 2 ... the look on Xena's face when she uncovered Gabrielle lying in Ming Tien's bed was burned indelibly in my brain. " First time I saw the episode I was convinced it was some kind of plot cooked up by Xena and Gabrielle. I was in fact a little mift _ I was sure TPTB were recycling the capture to get into the castle ploy from Dirty Half Dozen. I swore there was a signal between Gabrielle and Xena just before Xena was taken out by the guards _ I still think there was a little nod between the two just to lure the audience into a false sense of security. I kept waiting for Xena and Gabrielle to spring the trap. I think I was still waiting up to the point Gabrielle goes to visit Xena. Talk about denial - I was rowing down that river with all my might :-) CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:12:57 -0400 From: "Lee Daley" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] New York Times Article About Oxygen Meredith wrote in part: > and still have a couple fingers left over to flip off the brainiac at Studios USA >who thought it would be a good idea to sell them the exclusive rerun rights to X:WP. > From Studios USA's first involvement with Xena we have been complaining that they were clueless about the product (X:WP) and were Dilbertian in their marketing of the franchise. Why should they change at the end? LeeD; Warrior Jester ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #105 **************************************