From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #96 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, April 15 2002 Volume 02 : Number 096 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Choosing to Die (was <>) [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Deliverer [cr ] [chakram-refugees] OS: JKim on Volcano ["Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Choosing to Die (was <>) Spoilers , , , On Saturday 13 April 2002 18:28, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snips) > > > > > > > > Oh yes, that was the one where Gabby killed Desert Boy by mistake. > > OK, > > > > > what > > > > was the point of Gabby dying there? > > > > > > Um, can you say "double standard"? I personally never added up the > > points > > > > of either of them dying. The only point that mattered to Xena was > > > that > > it > > > > was okay for her to die anywhere, anytime, for whatever reason, but it > > was > > > > never okay for Gabrielle. She took away Gabrielle's choice in the > > > matter whenever she could, completely unconcerned about how > > > contradictory or arrogant it might seem. Maybe fans (and Gabrielle) > > > wanted to see them as equal in that way, but Xena gave that thought > > > only a passing nod. > > > > > > -- Ife > > > > Well, I disagree (surprise surprise! ;) > > > > In most cases when one or the other of them died, it was _not_ a > > voluntary thing. I'm trying to recall any cases where either > > deliberately chose > > to > > > die, permanently for real, and I can only think of Gabs in Legacy and > > Xena in > > Friend in Need. (I may well have missed one or two though). > > Hmmm, don't know if being a warrior could be considered suicidal, but I do > think Xena voluntarily put her life on the line all the time, never knowing > if some lucky strike (like the one in Destiny, where she did want to die) > might get past her formidable skills. Yes, that's quite true, but there's a difference between risking death (while presumably doing one's best to avoid it) and deliberately seeking death. > She sure as heck was ready to die in > Sacrifice, until Gabrielle beat her to it. Yes, true. Thougfh there again, it's not quite the same case. Xena was determined to kill Hope, and the 'death' threat to herself was incidental - by which I mean, she was ready to face it but would certainly have avoided it given another option. > I believe she thought she would > die in The Debt and OAAA. She was willing at first to follow Gabrielle > into the Amazon afterlife in Sin Trade, which presumably meant dying > herself. Yes - the Gate to Eternity. But she decided against it. > She might well have let herself be executed, if that had been the > judgement in Locked Up. That's in the 'might be' category, I don't think it can really be counted. > As for Gabrielle, we've got Sacrifice and Ides as > big-time voluntary opportunities to be killed. Sacrifice, yes. Ides, no. How was that 'voluntary'? > She didn't know for sure > that Najara wouldn't kill her when she threw herself over Xena's body in > Crusader. No, that was protecting Xena, not trying to die. > I saw many nearly impossible situations they voluntarily put themselves in, > which could have resulted in their deaths. 'Could have', yes, but which they would have found a way out of if possible. That's the difference I'm getting at. > My point was that both Xena and > Gabrielle accepted that Xena's "way" (or "line of work") didn't promote a > long life. But even when Gabrielle became more of a warrior herself, I > think Xena saw Gabrielle's "way" (e.g., love, friendship, compassion, > faith) as a reason to live -- which meant that Gabrielle should continue on > as a beacon. I don't recall Xena ever saying, "If one of us has to die, > that's my job," but I'd be willing to bet that's what she thought. > > -- Ife I think, coming back to Legacy, that was the only one where either decided to die solely because of a guilty conscience, not for some other reason. Gabs' death would have accomplished nothing else. (Except possibly a slightly less painful death for the Roman, and I submit Romans don't count ;) In FIN, Xena's death was prompted by a guilty conscience (or quest for redemption or whatever), but she also had the motive of saving the 40,000 souls. T ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 19:41:58 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Deliverer On Saturday 13 April 2002 18:28, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: (snips) > Of course, if they'd done as I suggest, we wouldn't have had the > provocative eps of season three. I wouldn't change for a minute the human > frailties that led X&G to test the strength of their bond. I'm not > criticizing Xena for failing to talk or Gabrielle for failing to listen. > I'm simply saying that, in dissecting what happened, I do believe things > could've played out differently (with less fallout) if they'd had more > sensitive chats. > Just as well they didn't then, isn't it? Thelonius (OK, I'll relent, see next message ;) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:10:38 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Deliverer On Saturday 13 April 2002 18:28, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/12/2002 7:56:11 AM Central Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Well, OK, what would have happened differently if Xena and Gabs had > > talked about their feelings or whatever? I don't see that it would > > have made a lot of difference. Xena (for whatever motive) went to > > Britannia to help Boadicea fight Caesar. I rather think Gabs would have > > agreed with that, given Khrafstar's obvious appeal to her. So they > > would have ended up in Britannia anyway. And it seemed to me that > > Gabby was genuinely interested in Khrafstar's little group (shades of Eli > > and his disciples?) and I imagine it was by tacit mutual agreement > > between her and Xena that she ended up with K and company. There's > > nothing in the episode to indicate that they had a disagreement over it. > > And in view of Gabs' determination to not kill people, her being > > elsewhere than a battle makes all sorts of sense. > > > > So I can't see what difference 'harmony' would have made, to be frank. > > Maybe "in tune" with each other would be more appropriate. They didn't > need to do things the same way or agree, so much as be more aware and > responsive. Xena was very cryptic about her trip to Chin, emphasizing the > brutality and lust of her former life. She didn't reveal until later the > reasons for the depth of her love and loyalty toward Lao Ma, which maybe > Gabrielle might have understood. It's almost as if Xena purposely weighted > the scales against Gabrielle's coming along and being a party to what went > against Gabrielle's grain (and image of what she wanted Xena to be). Quite correct so far... > If > she'd trusted Gabrielle more, Gabrielle probably would've trusted Xena's > judgement more and not felt compelled to go behind Xena's back. Well, Xena deliberately didn't want Gabs along precisely because she was *going* to kill Ming Tien and she knew Gabby would go bananas about it. She did explain to Gabs how much Lao Ma meant to her, IIRC. And Gabs still went bananas about her killing Ming Tien. And eventually, after all Xena's explanations about herself and Lao Ma, Gabs _still_ didn't want her to kill Ming and she had to hide the fact from Gabby. So I don't think Gabs would have gone along with the idea, however Xena had put it.. > In Britannia, Xena was likewise cryptic and reluctant to allow Gabrielle > any meaningful role to play. She pushed her away again. Xena may not have > paid much attention to Krafstar precisely because he seemed a diversion for > Gabrielle. Just as she later put aside her usual reservations with Najara > and Aiden, Xena felt that, under the circumstances, Gabrielle was better > off (e.g., safer, happier) with a stranger. Most times, she probably would have been. Just that Gabby had spectacularly poor judgement in which strangers to trust.... Khrafstar, Najara, Aiden, Eli..... > Had she listened to a few > sentences about Krafstar's "one god," Xena probably would've seen through > his double-speak. I don't see why, particularly, it seemed coherent enough to me. I know Xena can often tell, but K seemed particularly innocent. > Instead, she allowed Krafstar to play on her hatred for > Caesar, just like she let him play on Gabrielle's attraction to his > spiritual spiel. She never had time for a quick comparison of notes that > might have made each realize something was amiss. But why should it, if the story K told was consistent? Respectfully, I think this is in the 'might-have-beens' and you're putting too much faith in the power of communication and sensitivity. Besides, Xena always was laconic, it's part of her personality. Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:23:34 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OS: JKim on Volcano Just saw Jackie Kim on ABC on the Volcano movie with Tommy Lee Jones tonight. She played an emergency doctor that helps save Tommy Lee Jones' daughter. Her part was small, and she did well as usual. ;) Just FYI, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 19:32:22 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Eli was OK /Most times, she probably would have been. Just that Gabby had /spectacularly poor judgement in which strangers to trust.... Khrafstar, /Najara, Aiden, Eli..... But there was nothing wrong with Eli, certainly not from Gabrielle's point of view. Some fans didn't like him but I don't think that was at all intended by the writers or cast. He was not evil like the others mentioned and he stuck to his principles until he died for them. Gabrielle's picking him after Khrafstar, Najara and Aiden shows that she never stopped trying, and that Xena should have had faith in Gabrielle's maturing judgment. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 14:23:16 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] CON 2002 Day 3, Part 2 On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:09:00 -0800 (AKDT), KTL wrote: >The very first con I ever went to was the second Burbank one. - --KT, I was _there_! And in fact, I was talking to Steve and his friend while all this was going on! ;) I was in line, waiting to ask LL a question (which, of course, I never got to ask), and noticed Steve and his friend standing against the wall. Being a firm believer that "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" (so to speak ;) ), I started talking to them and taking Steve's picture. ;) >And later I happened to look over towards Steve (which is >astounding as I think about it, since Lucy was on stage ) and he >was just standing there, just focused on Lucy with this smiling, dreamily >absorbed, fondly besotted look on his face. - --I, too, had the same experience you had with Steve; very down-to-earth, very approachable. ;) That day, he did hold LL in quite *high esteem*, somewhat like a goddess. ;) When I asked Steve for his picture, he said *amazedly*, "You want _my_ picture, while Lucy's up there?!?" I said, "I probably won't be able to even ask her anything and she's so far away. At least I can get a good picture of you." Or sumpin' like that. ;) And yes, his picture came out *perfectly*. ;) >And during >Lucy's stint on stage, someone asked Lucy something and she said >something like, "You'll have to ask the writers" and she looked over to >her left and grinned at Steve who was standing against the wall. And >Steve just kind of smiled at her. - --As far as I can recall, Steve did answer her from afar, something like, "Yes, I wrote Hooves and Harlots" or something like that (I think LL's question to Steve was whether he wrote a particular ep). ;) *Meeeemmmmories*....;=) (and this is *scary*, because it's now becoming *collective* meeemmmories........ ;) ) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #96 *************************************