From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #92 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, April 11 2002 Volume 02 : Number 092 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [Mirrordrum > [cr ] [chakram-refugees] CON 2002 Day 3, Part 2 [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Xena Mention in new Hugh Grant fillum [Sojourner > [Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> spoilers for , , and a number of shows not named but referred to such as , , and . / / / / / / / / At 12:20 AM 4/11/2002 +1200, thelo wrote: >: "I used to > > think some folks were being a little too hard on Xena, in terms of blaming > > her for what happened with Gabrielle in Britania and Chin. > >Well, *I* don't get it. ;) Or rather, I understand the argument but I >think it's bogus. > >Specifically, in The Deliverer, Xena had every reason to believe that Gabs >was safely out of the way with Khrafstar's flower children, which should have >been much safer than being around Xena and Boadicea who were about to fight a >battle for their lives with Caesar. Xena had no way of knowing what K's >bunch were really like. i say, we must be watching very different shows. are you talking here about the xena who, let me see, well, the one who for example in is the only one who remembers everything? she who throughout the entire series, starting with , is always at least one step ahead of the god of war himself? she who, for example, in can see so clearly what's going to happen in the future that she not only knows to have gabrielle free eve, grab a blankie, and prepare to do CPR but knows how much hang-time to give the chakram so that it will nuke the fates and come back to her waiting hand at the preCISE moment of resuscitation? are you talking about the xena whose intuitive grasp is *so* astounding and percipience *so* acute that many railed against gabrielle for not heeding her wisdom with regard to, among other things, the inherent badness of hope, the naj and aiden? where oh where was this fabled and infallible insight when k-star popped up, eh? personally, i thought the writers made it fairly clear that we were supposed to buy that xena was so distracted by her understandable hatred of caesar that she wasn't paying attention to gabrielle's latest bit of foolishness. and the gods know that gabrielle never *did* listen. . .until the penultimate moment. and the one time she does listen, well, you got to admit if you thought a fitting ending that she listened well and bit the bullet hard. give her her props for that anyway. and you know, i don't think xena would have allowed gabrielle to make that kind of decision. she tends to get a bit high-handed--a quibble i'e always had with the show. indeed in we have what i find a rather irritating exchange to this effect: X: "Gabrielle, in everyone's life, there's something that goes beyond the greater good. That's what you are in my life. I wasn't about to let you die out there if there was something I could do about it." G: "What if it was my choice?" X: "Especially if it was your choice." (thanks whoosh! transcript) i mean, what's that about? actually, tptb sort of had it going both ways. they had to make xena fallible enough so that she could do the "oh i've killed so many the pain the pain" atonement thing but at the same time omniscient enough that she was ready to bail gabrielle, or whomever, out of some scrape or other. lucy even remarked on that, iirc, in the "last dance" video, giving ren full props for playing the character who always screws up. words to that effect. yes, kt, i realize that xena is not infallible but she does have the famous spidey sense. we never expect gabrielle to listen. but we, and xena, always expect the warrior princess to know what's best for everyone concerned. if this weren't so, then why, for example, blame gabrielle for solan's death? xena is a woman on whose shoulders responsibility falls and when it isn't falling, she goes around looking for some extra to lug about--and sometimes it's responsibility that doesn't belong to her. she takes her chances every chance she gets. but so does gabrielle. even though her chances are frequently ill-timed and poorly aimed. she got better as things went along. well, them's me sentiments. night all. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 01:35:07 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 11 April 2002 16:45, Mirrordrum wrote: > spoilers for , , and a number of > shows not named but referred to such as , , > and . > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > > At 12:20 AM 4/11/2002 +1200, thelo wrote: > >: "I used to > > > > > think some folks were being a little too hard on Xena, in terms of > > > blaming her for what happened with Gabrielle in Britania and Chin. > > > > > > >Well, *I* don't get it. ;) Or rather, I understand the argument but I > >think it's bogus. > > > >Specifically, in The Deliverer, Xena had every reason to believe that Gabs > >was safely out of the way with Khrafstar's flower children, which should > > have been much safer than being around Xena and Boadicea who were about > > to fight a battle for their lives with Caesar. Xena had no way of > > knowing what K's bunch were really like. > > i say, we must be watching very different shows. are you talking here about > the xena who, let me see, well, the one who for example in nothing> is the only one who remembers everything? she who throughout the > entire series, starting with , is always at least one step ahead > of the god of war himself? she who, for example, in can see > so clearly what's going to happen in the future that she not only knows to > have gabrielle free eve, grab a blankie, and prepare to do CPR but knows > how much hang-time to give the chakram so that it will nuke the fates and > come back to her waiting hand at the preCISE moment of resuscitation? are > you talking about the xena whose intuitive grasp is *so* astounding and > percipience *so* acute that many railed against gabrielle for not heeding > her wisdom with regard to, among other things, the inherent badness of > hope, the naj and aiden? where oh where was this fabled and infallible > insight when k-star popped up, eh? Oooh, now you're just being argumentative,md! But I'll take you on, you ornery woman you ;) Remember, with the God of War, she knows him very well. She has no experience of Dahak and in fact doesn't even know he/it exists. As for the chacky flight in Coming Home, I think it must be a smart chacky with loiter capability.... programmed to target the Furies only. There was heaps of reason to be suspicious of Hope, if you recall, not least being her inflammable conception and her remarkably rapid development. Najara and Aidan, Xena also had reason to suspect. But she was fooled by Caesar, Julius Caesar (the first time), and admittedly by Khrafstar ... maybe he reminded her just a little of Borias? So your statements as to Xena's infallibility are not entirely correct, dear md, and I suspect you have exaggerated them for the sake of making your point. > personally, i thought the writers made it fairly clear that we were > supposed to buy that xena was so distracted by her understandable hatred of > caesar that she wasn't paying attention to gabrielle's latest bit of > foolishness. Yes, that is so. But what I'm saying is, that's only to be expected and not (IMO) particularly blameworthy. Zeus knows (or would if Herc hadn't killed him), there have been enough eps where Xena's ability to focus is a useful attribute, so it is, IMO, perverse to blame her for it this time. > and the gods know that gabrielle never *did* listen. . .until > the penultimate moment. and the one time she does listen, well, you got to > admit if you thought a fitting ending that she listened well and bit > the bullet hard. give her her props for that anyway. > > and you know, i don't think xena would have allowed gabrielle to make that > kind of decision. Which kind of decision? The one at the end of FIN, do you mean? > she tends to get a bit high-handed--a quibble i'e always > had with the show. indeed in we have what i find a rather > irritating exchange to this effect: > > X: "Gabrielle, in everyone's life, there's something that goes > beyond the greater good. That's what you are in my life. I > wasn't about to let you die out there if there was something I > could do about it." > > G: "What if it was my choice?" > > X: "Especially if it was your choice." > > (thanks whoosh! transcript) > > i mean, what's that about? Oh yes, that was the one where Gabby killed Desert Boy by mistake. OK, what was the point of Gabby dying there? - it wouldn't have achieved anything (other than, as I said about Gurkhan, giving us a Gab-free Season 6 ;) Well, it did get the Roman prisoner off the hook - or maybe they just killed him a bit more quickly and painlessly. As against that, it wrecked the anti-Roman alliance that Xena was putting together and thus did more harm to the interests of Desert Boy's people. I think Gabs was too soft-hearted to be truly useful in a tough situation such as Xena was always encountering. > actually, tptb sort of had it going both ways. they had to make xena > fallible enough so that she could do the "oh i've killed so many the pain > the pain" atonement thing but at the same time omniscient enough that she > was ready to bail gabrielle, or whomever, out of some scrape or other. lucy > even remarked on that, iirc, in the "last dance" video, giving ren full > props for playing the character who always screws up. words to that effect. > yes, kt, i realize that xena is not infallible but she does have the famous > spidey sense. we never expect gabrielle to listen. but we, and xena, always > expect the warrior princess to know what's best for everyone concerned. if > this weren't so, then why, for example, blame gabrielle for solan's death? Glad you asked that. Gabrielle *knew* that Xena thought Hope was the daughter of Dahak and a killer. So, IMO, she had no right to send Hope to Kaleipus's hut, and certainly not just to prove Xena wrong. Because there was a strong possibility Xena was right and if so, she was endangering Solan which she had no right to do. > xena is a woman on whose shoulders responsibility falls and when it isn't > falling, she goes around looking for some extra to lug about--and sometimes > it's responsibility that doesn't belong to her. she takes her chances every > chance she gets. but so does gabrielle. even though her chances are > frequently ill-timed and poorly aimed. she got better as things went along. > OK I'll go along with that. Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:09:00 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] CON 2002 Day 3, Part 2 Okay, so Steve Sears was next. Steve always looks to me like he's constantly amused about something and is going to start laughing any second. He was his usual teasing self, wearing his little smile, very calm and collected. I always enjoy Steve's appearances. I managed to miss him last year, so was glad he was back again. The very first con I ever went to was the second Burbank one. And during Lucy's stint on stage, someone asked Lucy something and she said something like, "You'll have to ask the writers" and she looked over to her left and grinned at Steve who was standing against the wall. And Steve just kind of smiled at her. And later I happened to look over towards Steve (which is astounding as I think about it, since Lucy was on stage ) and he was just standing there, just focused on Lucy with this smiling, dreamily absorbed, fondly besotted look on his face. Who knows-maybe he was off in some dreamland somewhere, making up new stories or something. But it was sweet to see the apparent affection on his face as he looked at her. Steve always hangs around the hallways at cons and is always available to fans to talk to. I've never--Oh wait-I DID talk to him once. I remember during season three, he was at the con. And as I walked down the hallway, I noticed that he was just getting reamed by a group of women who kept going up to him and just loudly HARASSING the man over the rift. They didn't want to hear what he had to say about it, they just wanted to yell at him about it. Every time he tried to say something, they interrupted him. They took turns yelling in his face. I remember just shaking my head in disbelief at how obnoxious they were being. And I remember being so impressed with how calm Steve stayed, how polite he was in the face of these screaming meemies. And I started towards the group but with one last blast at Steve, they all took off in a huff. I kept walking towards Steve and said loudly as I came up to him, "Hey, I LOVED season three. It was in season three that XWP became the best series on television." Steve looked at me and said, "Where's your car parked." I remember thinking, "What the furk...?" and then said, "Uh, I flew down." And then Steve said, "Oh good, because if your car was parked outside, and THEY heard you say you liked season three, they'd probably be out there setting fire to it right now." We both laughed and I said, "Oh, I praise season three publicly all the time online on the Xena lists." He made an impressed face and smiled at me. And I was very glad to see that he didn't let those hysterical fans bum him out. Okay so this time, Steve talked some about signing on with Hourglass, Alex and Claudia Christian's project and that he was real excited about it. He was talking about "Sheena" and how they kept moving her time slot around. Because the companies that used to buy independent shows and then distribute them to syndicated networks, now want to eliminate the middle people and make their own shows and distribute them. Thus making money at all the turns. As this new business model takes over, the distributors, who apparently have some control over what goes in what time slot (by using their popular shows as bargaining chips) are now reserving the best time slots for their self produced shows. Steve talked about how hard it was now in this new atmosphere to try to get your show into a good time slot and keep it there. And pretty much, it's only loyal fans who will follow the show around to different time slots. A show that moves tends to lose its casual fans and thus ratings. Steve said that when he first started production on Sheena, he called Rob and asked him about how controlling the suits were, how closely they might be watching what he was doing and how involved they might get in telling him what to do with his show. And he imitated Rob talking, using this whiny, high-pitched voice, and he said, "Two phone calls. In six years I had maybe two phone calls from them about the show." It was very funny. That's one thing that I also enjoyed very much about Tapert-how his staff never worried about making fun of him, about kidding around about him. Those two Herc shows, "Yes, Virginia, There Is A Hercules" and "For Those Of You Just Joining Us", the cast just CREAMS all of the folks on the creative/production side, but most of all, they make fun of Rob. I like it that Adrienne is comfortable talking about fighting with Rob over how to present Eve (especially since it seems to me that most fans disliked Eve as she was portrayed and would have agreed with Adrienne) and that Claire blares out, "Separate those two at the end?! F*ck that!" It indicates to me that Rob is not vindictive nor overly enamored of his own dignity. And I like bosses like that, who come across that way to their staff. Steve told us an idea he had for a new series. It sounded pretty good even to me who generally doesn't care much for action adventure shows. He's been shopping it around. It's about an oriental woman who has some flashbacks to a former life and who gets extremely violent and dangerous when she transforms into the woman of the past. It sounded better when he told it than when I'm telling it now. Steve said there were problems now with trying to sell action adventure shows. That after the attack on September 11th, people are very wary of greenlighting projects that are too violent or that have any whiff of terrorism. He said it's just a totally new ball game now. And that the ripples of that attack are extremely widespread throughout our society. Someone asked him where he got his ideas from. And he hesitated and seemed to have a little trouble trying to formulate his answer to this. Finally he said with a slight shrug, "Life is where you get it from". What I got from this was that he was saying you just kind of have to pay attention, there's stories happening all around you. You just gotta see them, you just have to be interested enough in other people to see what their life is like. But I could be wrong Someone asked about the development of Gabrielle from a pure sidekick role towards one of more importance. And he smiled widely and said that he just decided that she was the character he wanted to write. He said something like, "Rob and RJ had Xena. I took Gabrielle." And he pantomimed standing turned slightly away from the people he was talking to, while encircling a person protectively in his arms, placing his body between that person and the folks he was talking to and saying, "Gabrielle is mine. Hug, hug, hug." Very funny and sweet at the same time. Someone asked him about the ending and he said he also would have ended the series with Xena dead. But that she would have died in order to establish Gabrielle at the head of a new world order. He's such a card, that guy. Grin. And then he laughed and said something like, "But I don't think she's dead. Do you? Yeah, they shot her full of arrows, cut off her head and burned her, but", as he gave a dismissive shrug, "Naw, Xena? she's not dead." Then Steve talked about donating something to auction off for Kevin's family. He told us how one day while walking around outside at the studio, he saw a Xena poster in a garbage can. (I THINK he saw it and rescued it-possibly someone else rescued it and gave it to him. But I think it was him who pulled it out of the garbage.) Which cracked me up-most fans would give their eye teeth to have one of those early advertising posters and here someone had thrown it into the garbage. Heh. And Steve said that he had stuck it in the writing office and had kept it there during his whole time with the show. (Presumably for inspiration.) And he offered this to be donated off. He also donated a picture of Xena being crucified in Destiny. Karl Urban had written on it, "Steve-it was something like, 'Break her f*cking legs'". (Without the asterisk "pastie" bit though--I put that in). He set these things aside to be auctioned off later-Creation had scheduled time to do an auction of everything that the cast and fans had donated that day for Kevin's family. That's all the notes I have on Steve, again I always find him interesting and fun to listen to. One thing that really stuck out to me was that Steve, alone of almost everyone else was not at all different at this con, post Kevin's death. And I think that the reason for this is that he's always just himself, he's always just real straightforward with the fans. He doesn't put on an act or even seem to set aside some private side of himself when he's on the con stage, as Lucy does. Lucy draws lines she will not let us cross. And I have no problem with that--I respect that. But Steve, I don't get that feeling from him. And I didn't get any different feeling from him this time either. So either he's always totally himself or he is the BEST actor in the whole PacRen group. One o' them there "naturals". Smile. Next up was a video salute to Gabrielle. And NO, it wasn't "Wind Beneath My Wings" this time. It was a video cut to Calendar Girl and had been created by Cruise. It was excellent. VERY funny. I've seen a number of videos and for me far too many of them are nothing but a collection of images that very often have almost nothing to do with the lyrics of the song. But this one was very well done. My favorite part was when the lyrics went, "April, greet the Easter Bunny with a smile" and the scene was Gabrielle battling with that wild bunny in In Sickness and In Health. Perrrrrfect. KT _____________________________________________________ To unsubscribe send a message to majordomo@mlists.com with "unsubscribe xenaverse" in the message body ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:43:10 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 4/10/2002 7:30:11 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Wednesday 10 April 2002 10:38, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/9/2002 12:38:01 PM Central Daylight Time, > > > > cande@sunlink.net writes: > > > Yes I think Gabrielle is beginning to see Xena as a more fallible > > > > individual. > > > > > Certainly Gabrielle has more doubts about Xena's choices - this leads > > > her to Kraftstar and certainly to her betrayal in Chin. Xena indeed > > > fears that Gabrielle can't love the "real" Xena and that leads her to > two > > > diasterous decisions - her emotional withdrawal in Britania and leaving > > > Gabrielle > > > > behind > > > > > when she goes to Chin, > > > > You know, I hadn't quite seen that withdrawal part. (Indeed, I had to read > > your comment a few times before my initial frown went away.) I'd focused > > more on Xena's singlemindedness on her missions, underestimating the > vacuum > > that left in terms of Gabrielle's feelings or understanding. I used to > > think some folks were being a little too hard on Xena, in terms of blaming > > her for what happened with Gabrielle in Britania and Chin. I finally "get" > > > it now. I seem to suffer from the same insensitivities as Xena, so thanks > > for the heads-up. > > > > -- Ife > > Well, *I* don't get it. ;) Or rather, I understand the argument but I > think it's bogus. > > Gabby chose to tag along after Xena (and proved impossible to shake off, > even > though Xena tried several times IIRC). That was Gabs' decision, not > Xena's, and therefore IMO Gabs is responsible for the consequences, not > Xena. Because Gabs chose to let her world revolve around Xena (like an > obsessive fan? ;) does NOT in any way mean that Xena is required to make > > her world revolve around Gabs. > LOL! Forgive me for snipping much of your "Xena had more important things on her mind" argument. That (along with Gab's self-responsibility) I can fully understand. I think both of us tend to focus on the action/strategy aspects, rather than the relationship/emotional ones. However, as I've said before, the latter perspective has given me a richer appreciation for the show, making me more aware of subtler "action" going on underneath. In this case, I'm not dealing with whether Xena *should* have paid more attention to Gabrielle, or even if she was capable of knowing what was going on in Gabrielle's head or anticipating what might happen. Indeed, it was somewhat of a mystery to me how/why Gabrielle went off on the courses she did. I simply meant that Cande's comments offered me a reasonable possibility. X&G often balanced each other and were usually most effective when they did. With Chin and Britania (as with the crucifixion vision), Xena basically withdrew, becoming totally consumed with her mission. Again, understandable to me. But the result was to leave the impressionable, searching Gabrielle with many questions and no where to turn for answers. She didn't have Xena's practical, probing nature to rely on. But Gabrielle was a woman of action too, so she found roles for herself and directions to pursue during Xena's emotional absence. Do I blame Xena for this? No. I think both of them did what was human under the circumstances. Without the balance they provided each other, Xena allowed herself to succumb to the darkness she felt necessary to reach her goals -- completely missing the piece that might make things go awry. Gabrielle did the same in succumbing to her idealism. They allowed more selfish motivations to blind them to the potential consequences of their actions for each other, though each might say she was defending the greater good. In effect, each felt and acted "alone." For me, it's not just about these two individuals being sensitive to each other because it's expected or "nice." In the Xenaverse, they represented a balance that -- when off-kilter -- often had grave consequences that affected the greater good. And when they worked in harmony, they not only benefitted each other, but also those around them. Cande made me realize how that emotional "vacuum" in these situations affected the action, regardless of whose responsibility it was for those actions. It adds a layer of "sense" for me that might explain the "why" of the actions in the larger context, beyond the "what." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:21:26 +0100 From: Sojourner Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena Mention in new Hugh Grant fillum My gf was socialising down the Amercian Embassy here in London at a preview showing of Hugh's new flick, About a Boy. (Apparently Hugh sports a cute new hair cut). Anyway, Based on Nick Hornby's best-selling novel, About A Boy is the story of a cynical, immature young man who is taught how to act like a grown-up by a little boy according to IMDB.COM. (Blech!) As part of their male bonding they hang out at home watching XWP on the telly!! According to my source - one shot of Xena, one of Gabrielle (looks like mid-season five - the preggy jacket gave it away) - and a reference in the dialogue. So there ya go..... Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:29:21 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> At 01:35 AM 4/12/2002 +1200, cr wrote: >On Thursday 11 April 2002 16:45, Mirrordrum wrote: > > spoilers for , , and a number of > > eps not named but referred to such as , , > > and . > > / > > / > > / > > / > > / > > / > > / > > / > > > > At 12:20 AM 4/11/2002 +1200, thelo wrote: > >Specifically, in The Deliverer, Xena had every reason to believe that Gabs > > >was safely out of the way with Khrafstar's flower children, > Xena had no way of > > > knowing what K's bunch were really like. > > > > i say, we must be watching very different shows. are you talking here about > > the xena who, let me see, well, the one who for example in > nothing> is the only one who remembers everything? she who throughout the > > entire series, starting with , is always at least one step ahead > > of the god of war himself? she who, for example, in can see > > so clearly what's going to happen in the future that she not only knows to > > have gabrielle free eve, grab a blankie, and prepare to do CPR but knows > > how much hang-time to give the chakram so that it will nuke the fates and > > come back to her waiting hand at the preCISE moment of resuscitation? are > > you talking about the xena whose intuitive grasp is *so* astounding and > > percipience *so* acute that many railed against gabrielle for not heeding > > her wisdom with regard to, among other things, the inherent badness of > > hope, the naj and aiden? where oh where was this fabled and infallible > > insight when k-star popped up, eh? > >Oooh, now you're just being argumentative,md! i prefer to think of it as an attempt to bring to bear a bit of common sense. silly of me of course, but there it is. > But I'll take you on, you >ornery woman you ;) oh goody! >Remember, with the God of War, she knows him very well. not in or, well, i prefer to assume this is their first face-to-face and that we are being shown just how quick a study and how clever a planner she is. the xena i imagine really is as i described her above. her encounter w/ caesar left her in a state of constant vigilance. her encounter w/ lao ma expanded and refined her skills and brought her a title. i'm not quite sure what her encounter w/ akemi and then odin and the valkyries left her with, besides baggage. she trusts almost no one and with good reason. villagers are endlessly fickle and her own army turned on her & beat her to a pulp (). the gods are certainly capricious and untrustworthy. besides, she knows herself so she knows just how dark dark can get. > She has no >experience of Dahak and in fact doesn't even know he/it exists. true enough--well, she knows this "one god" exists because k-star talks about him and it's certainly made more complicated than just xena being blind. the point is clearly made, however, that she's so focused on caesar that she doesn't know gabrielle's missing the first time and didn't even figure out that boadicea was lying to her. do you really buy that an attentive xena wouldn't catch that? i don't. and of course ares warns her but i certainly don't expect her to trust ares. then when the cloud starts rising above dahak's temple, xena suddenly comes to her senses and zooms off to save gabrielle which, imo, shows some of that good spidey sense. now it's also made more complicated of course by xena's history w/ the one god of the israelites. xena gets fooled just like the rest of us. you've got to admit that it's rare. thing is, i'm not arguing that xena's bad to have been focused on caesar, simply that i'll bet you wouldn't have been astonished if xena had twigged k-star as a phony right off the bat. and if she had and had warned gabrielle, you'd all have merrily chirruped on about how bad gabrielle was for not listening to xena and screwing everything up again. don't look at me like that. you would. if a case can be made for xena to be right and gabrielle to be wrong you know perfectly well you'll make it every time. i, on the other hand, am *merely* suggesting that in this case, as was implied in the rift arc, xena might have been the least little bit distracted. i am merely sugGESTing that xena's acumen is so great that she normally knows what's best and that she can tell who's naughty and who's nice very rapidly. i offered as examples her rapid assessments of hope, najara and aiden. >As for the chacky flight in Coming Home, I think it must be a smart chacky >with loiter capability.... programmed to target the Furies only. oh, so this is suddenly an independent facility of the chakram, not xena's consummate skill? whoa! now that's got to be a first for you. would you likewise suggest then that it the 43 caroms were not in fact calculated to a nicety but were simply smartchak tracking ability? aw come on. admit it. xena's better than that. >There was heaps of reason to be suspicious of Hope, if you recall, not least >being her inflammable conception and her remarkably rapid development. sure. of course there were. we were privy to those reasons and i agree that xena should have been suspicious. i just never bought it that a mother (gabrielle) who loved her child would believe that child was evil just "because xena said so." i know, i know, gabrielle has no sense and this is a really old argument and it's very much personal opinion. all i'm saying is that xena, as usual, is spot on with hope and isn't remotely distracted by the fact that it's gab's child. yet she misses the boat w/ k-star. also the xena who has had to give up her own child would know what she's asking of gabrielle and would have been more persuasive and less harsh. i just think xena was written wrong. i think she's more caring than that. but that's beside the point. if she'd been written the way i think she'd actually have behaved, you'd have to have rewritten a large chunk of season 3 and the rest of the series. >Najara and Aidan, Xena also had reason to suspect. pretty flimsy. again, i thought she just has this hard-earned, hard-learned distrust and needle-sharp sense about people. gabrielle looks for the good, xena looks for the bad. besides, it's necessary to the story for her to be right about them and gabrielle to be wrong. that's just what gabrielle does. > But she was fooled by >Caesar, Julius Caesar (the first time), and admittedly by Khrafstar ... >maybe he reminded her just a little of Borias? *chuckle* could be. he had rather that effect on me. > So your statements as to Xena's infallibility are not entirely correct, > dear >md, hardly anything i say is entirely correct. and i didn't say she was infallible. indeed, i went so far as to say she's not. i only maintain that it would be consistent with the xena we know and love to have discerned, under normal circs, that k-star was not what he seemed. it's understandable to me that she didn't, of course, but i attribute that to her having been distracted by caesar and lulled into complaisance by the fancy that they were talking about the god of the israelites who may, or may not, be the one god of eli. i should also say that i agree with you that the gabrielles of this world should be expected, and allowed, to take care of ourselves and not have to have some super hero always running around cleaning up after us. i never did like that and have written about it extensively. i realize it was necessary but i balked. i don't think it was xena's business to have to be keeping an eye out all the time. but had gab been scripted to take care of herself and not always get into trouble, a lot of the plots would have evaporated. > and I suspect you have exaggerated them for the sake of making your >point. no, not really. xena is, well, xena. born to conquer and have angst. > > personally, i thought the writers made it fairly clear that we were > > supposed to buy that xena was so distracted by her understandable hatred of > > caesar that she wasn't paying attention to gabrielle's latest bit of > > foolishness. > >Yes, that is so. But what I'm saying is, that's only to be expected and not >(IMO) particularly blameworthy. agreed, as noted above. perhaps i misunderstood. i don't assign blame and i thought the plot line that had gabrielle hating xena for "betraying" her in britannia was horribly contrived and the height of bogus. > Zeus knows (or would if Herc hadn't killed >him), there have been enough eps where Xena's ability to focus is a useful >attribute, so it is, IMO, perverse to blame her for it this time. and i don't. i merely say that it is implied throughout the series that xena has a commander's ability not only to focus but to see a broad picture and unlike gabrielle, she can spot a phony. gab's a sucker. xena, not so much. i don't think she's to blame for gabrielle's pregnancy. i do think they opened the door to the possibility that she was obsessed with her hatred of caesar and that she would blame herself. k-star blames her and you know xena. when they pass around the guilt, she always takes second helpings. hence, ultimately, the old "hate is the star" thing and penultimately, the crucifixions. but as we are shown in , it's all fate. so what could she do? i'll be damned if i can figure out what people see in that episode (, that is) but don't get me started. > > and the gods know that gabrielle never *did* listen. . .until > > the penultimate moment. and the one time she does listen, well, you got to > > admit if you thought a fitting ending that she listened well and bit > > the bullet hard. give her her props for that anyway. > > > > and you know, i don't think xena would have allowed gabrielle to make that > > kind of decision. > >Which kind of decision? The one at the end of FIN, do you mean? well, i mean had xena been in gabrielle's place (as she sort of was in ), she wouldn't have *let* it happen. thus the quoted interchange below. > > X: "Gabrielle, in everyone's life, there's something that goes > > beyond the greater good. That's what you are in my life. I > > wasn't about to let you die out there if there was something I > > could do about it." > > > > G: "What if it was my choice?" > > > > X: "Especially if it was your choice." > > > > (thanks whoosh! transcript) > > > > i mean, what's that about? > >Oh yes, that was the one where Gabby killed Desert Boy by mistake. OK, what >was the point of Gabby dying there? i'm not quibbling about that, tho i could. i'm talking about the specific point of the quote, viz.: there's something that goes beyond the greater good, you're it, and even if, especially if, it were your choice to die (for something you'd done wrong), i wouldn't let you." nobody should take that kind of attitude, imo, with someone they respect. period. this is a parallel with the situation in its essentials. xena believed she needed to stay dead. gabrielle didn't care about the greater good, only about xena. she could have dumped the ashes but she didn't. she listened to xena. what xena's saying in is that regardless of the greater good and regardless of what gabrielle felt was right, she would make the decision *for* gabrielle. would you really be willing to accept a relationship where somebody would feel justified in taking away your responsibility in the world? isn't that exactly what you were talking about in ? it was gab's decision to go w/ k-star. she should have borne the consequences regardless. i agree. that's why i don't "blame" xena and i don't buy it that gab would hate xena for "betraying" her. horse pucky! i'm snipping the discussion abt what xena did in . i could discuss it but this post is already out of hand. because we'd never agree on it and i found it simultaneously thought-provoking and contrived.> > > xena is a woman on whose shoulders responsibility falls and when it isn't > > falling, she goes around looking for some extra to lug about--and sometimes > > it's responsibility that doesn't belong to her. she takes her chances every > > chance she gets. but so does gabrielle. even though her chances are > > frequently ill-timed and poorly aimed. she got better as things went along. > > > >OK I'll go along with that. you will? wow. i'm gonna frame this. ;-> md We are confronted by insurmountable opportunities. --Pogo ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. 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