From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest)
To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org
Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #9
Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org
Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org
Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org
Precedence: bulk


chakram-refugees-digest   Thursday, January 10 2002   Volume 02 : Number 009



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  [chakram-refugees] Sacrifice II and Gabrielle  [Lilli Sprintz <spri0037@tc]
  [chakram-refugees] Whoosh possibly changing form  [Lilli Sprintz <spri0037]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Sacrifice II and Gabrielle    [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Whoosh possibly changing form   [BElannafan@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<.A Friend In Need Director's Cut>> Spoilers <<Locked...  [IfeRa]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Sacrifice II and Gabrielle          [IfeRae@aol.com]
  [chakram-refugees] <<Director's Cut>>   ["Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 23:44:45 -0600
From: Lilli Sprintz <spri0037@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Sacrifice II and Gabrielle

Spoilers - Season 3 <<Sacrifice II>> and Season 6 <<Soul Possession>>

Spoilers - Season 3 <<Sacrifice II>> and Season 6 <<Soul Possession>>

Spoilers - Season 3 <<Sacrifice II>> and Season 6 <<Soul Possession>>



just went and rewatched the two shows Sacrifice I and Sacrifice II these 
last two nights on Oxygen (yes, I am again a recipient of our cable 
company's good graces:  that they apparently unblock stations for 
several weeks in a year to try to convince the lot of us to get more 
than basic cable.  I get to watch Xena!)

You know, that was one of the most difficult shows up to then of the 
entire 3 years I had watched.  I Cried watching Gabrielle get killed.

I almost cried again looking at this, this evening.  The acting by Renee 
O'Connor really pulled this one off, because of the heart-rending look 
she has at the end as she pulls Hope into the fire with her, a look to 
Xena of, "I'm so sorry....I had to do this...I love you" all in a few 
seconds' look.  I remember writing  to the Chakram list that night and 
feeling my heart hurt so badly.  So, I wanted to post again this evening 
to remind myself what a wonderful show this was, what humor, but also 
heart-rending moments from people many of us cared about so deeply 
because of the love they put into their work.

The other thing I want to note is that I looked at that last scene with 
a bit of scepticism after seeing Soul Possession this last season. 
 Without going into too much detail, as a reminder, Soul Possession 
tried, with hindsight, to give a plausable reason why Gabrielle managed 
to survive the fire, and come back all hale and healthy in the 4th 
Season.  It still doesn't work.  In Sacrifice II, Ares has been 
temporarily put out of commission by goddess Callisto in Dayhawk's 
temple, while Xena meanwhile is trying to kill Hope with the hind's 
daggar.  When Gabrielle dies with Hope, Ares is still in that room. He 
hadn't gone anywhere.

When we go to Soul Possession, the storyline states that Ares basically 
saved both Gabrielle and Hope from the fire, supposedly by catching them 
somehow at the bottom.  When I went back to Sacrifice II, Ares was still 
in that temple and hadn't left the room.  So, although as a god he might 
be able to pull off being two places in one (he sort of did that in 1st 
Season Ties That Bind, playing both himself and Xena's "father" at the 
same time), it still doesn't fit what I saw.  

Any other thoughts from anyone else on this?

Lilli
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 00:36:28 -0600
From: Lilli Sprintz <spri0037@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Whoosh possibly changing form

I had the sad experience of reading a possible farewell from Kym Taborn 
tonight on the main Whoosh site.  She may have to move her site to a 
different computer location (called an ISP - someone else out there 
might be able to explain it better), which might reduce information on 
the site.   For those of you who might be interested, and because I am 
not good in transferring information accurately enough unless I quote, 
here is what she said.  I hope she doesn't mind."

    SAD NEWS


I just got the message today that Yahoo wants to charge us around 
$100/mo to maintain this website (we were paying $20), and it goes into 
effect TOMORROW, the 9th of January. I cannot afford that. So, I have to 
find an ISP that I can afford. Until then, Whoosh may go off line. If I 
cannot find a substitute that I can afford, then sadly I will have to 
let Whoosh go, or just keep a barebones version of it. It's been a great 
ride. I wanted to keep this site going as long as I could, and now it 
looks like this might be it. I will try to keep the journal going, but 
most of our back issues and a lot of our features will have to go 
off-line. I am kind of in shock right now. But I just wanted everyone to 
know how much I have loved and enjoyed working on this site. I have met 
so many wonderful and friendly people. I will always look at these past 
six years as some of the best years of my life. I will keep it going in 
some form or another, and I will endeavor to have Whoosh continue on in 
all of its 600 meg glory. But just in case fortune is not on my side, I 
just wanted all the readers, contributors, and friends of Whoosh to know 
that I will never be able to thank you enough for your support this 
website and all the wacky and fun times we have had. It's been the best 
ride possible. I will always remember you all.

There will be no more updates on this site until these matters have been 
resolved.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you feel an urge to give her thanks and support, thought her email 
address might help.
Her email is:  (ktaborn@lightspeed.net <mailto:ktaborn@lightspeed.net> )

Lilli
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:24:40 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Sacrifice II and Gabrielle

On Wednesday 09 January 2002 18:44, Lilli Sprintz wrote:
> Spoilers - Season 3 <<Sacrifice II>> and Season 6 <<Soul Possession>>
>
> Spoilers - Season 3 <<Sacrifice II>> and Season 6 <<Soul Possession>>
>
> Spoilers - Season 3 <<Sacrifice II>> and Season 6 <<Soul Possession>>
>
>
>

(snips)


>
> The other thing I want to note is that I looked at that last scene with
> a bit of scepticism after seeing Soul Possession this last season.
>  Without going into too much detail, as a reminder, Soul Possession
> tried, with hindsight, to give a plausable reason why Gabrielle managed
> to survive the fire, and come back all hale and healthy in the 4th
> Season.  It still doesn't work.  In Sacrifice II, Ares has been
> temporarily put out of commission by goddess Callisto in Dayhawk's
> temple, while Xena meanwhile is trying to kill Hope with the hind's
> daggar.  When Gabrielle dies with Hope, Ares is still in that room. He
> hadn't gone anywhere.
>
> When we go to Soul Possession, the storyline states that Ares basically
> saved both Gabrielle and Hope from the fire, supposedly by catching them
> somehow at the bottom.  When I went back to Sacrifice II, Ares was still
> in that temple and hadn't left the room.  So, although as a god he might
> be able to pull off being two places in one (he sort of did that in 1st
> Season Ties That Bind, playing both himself and Xena's "father" at the
> same time), it still doesn't fit what I saw.
>
> Any other thoughts from anyone else on this?
>
> Lilli

Yep.

Aside from Sacrifice being (IMO and quite contradictory to the Argo Awards)  
*the* quintessential Xena ep - because it's got everything and it's great fun 
(specialy if you overlook Gabs doing the death dive at the end, but then we 
all know that death is temporary in the Xenaverse, except possibly in FIN but 
that's another issue   :)     -  where was I?   Oh yep.  Sacrifice -  great 
ep!

The real problem didn't really arise in Sacrifice, but in A Family Affair, 
when they made Gabs' survival story so unconvincing.    So, possibly in a 
spirit of trying to tie up loose ends in Season 6  (which I think was a 
worthy aim but totally misguided), they tried in Soul Possession to explain 
it a bit better.    But unfortunately they ended up with an even bigger YAXI, 
viz.  that  (IIRC)   Gabs, who had recently poisoned Hope and just sacrificed 
her life to kill Hope again, then promptly sold her soul to Ares to save 
Hope.   Or something like that.   

Actually, that may not be as big a YAXI as it looks, prima facie.   Gabs 
actually took the dive to save Xena rather than kill off Hope, so I suppose 
she may have been trying to have it both ways....   but it still requires 
Gabs to have very mixed feelings where Hope is concerned.   
I think it could have been handled much better - suppose for example, Ares 
just saved Gabs for use as a bargaining chip - that would have accounted for 
Gabs' survival without the dodgy deal with her soul.   It could even have 
worked out that Ares, having saved Gabs' life, 'owned' her, *without* Gabs 
needing to sell her soul to him for a very improbable reason.

The other YAXI, of course, is that in subsequent eps where Gabs and Ares 
interact, (after the Gabs - Ares deal was supposedly struck during the 
Gabdive), such as Succession and Motherhood,  there is no mention made of the 
fact that Ares 'owns' Gabby.   

Thelonius
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:16:08 EST
From: BElannafan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Whoosh possibly changing form

In a message dated 1/9/2002 01:37:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
spri0037@tc.umn.edu writes:

<< I had the sad experience of reading a possible farewell from Kym Taborn 
 tonight on the main Whoosh site.  She may have to move her site to a 
 different computer location (called an ISP - someone else out there 
 might be able to explain it better),>> 
 Quoting Whoosh
<<    SAD NEWS 
 I just got the message today that Yahoo wants to charge us around 
 $100/mo to maintain this website (we were paying $20), and it goes into 
 effect TOMORROW, the 9th of January. I cannot afford that. So, I have to 
 find an ISP that I can afford. Until then, Whoosh may go off line. If I 
 cannot find a substitute that I can afford, >>

That is REALLY TOO BAD!  Not being a computer geek myself, is there any of 
you computer folks out there who might be able to steer Kym in the direction 
of an affordable home for this web site?  It doesn't matter if one liked 
Whoosh or only visited occasionally, I would hate to see this page have to 
close down.  It has been one of the really decent Xena venues throughout the 
years and if Kym is willing to keep it going, can someone of us help with 
that?

============================================================
Consideration is given, Respect is earned, Jan.  
You know you're a redneck Jedi when Darth Vader says' "Come with me, Luke.  I 
am your father and your uncle."
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:45:34 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<.A Friend In Need Director's Cut>> Spoilers <<Locked...

In a message dated 1/8/02 12:05:09 AM Central Standard Time, 
taurodea@yahoo.com writes:

 
 Lookout below! Random thoughts and spoilers for A Friend In Need
 Director's Cut... a mention of Locked Up and Tied Down also
 I
 L
 I
 K
 E
 D
 T
 H
 I
 S
 O
 N
 E
 B
 E
 T
 T
 E
 R
 
<< From what I've read, TPTB studied Japanese tradition and found the
 above belief about vengeance. I liked AFINs just fine, found it a
 fitting ending to XWP and Xena's desperado-search for atonement that
 she knew she'd never find (or allow herself), but leaving The Big
 Wrench scene out was a major boo-boo, as I see it. The Japanese belief
 was something I now understand Xena decided to honor out of her own
 desire to make something right that she once had wronged, not because
 she'd crossed some kind of netherworld border where she had to now
 adhere to the new country's traditions in death. >>

I had mixed emotions about that scene.  I remember from the first showing of 
the aired version that Akemi had this strange look on her face when Gabrielle 
and Xena talked about restoring Xena.  I thought at the time it was more of a 
personal "Gee, Xena won't be here in the spirit realm with me."  And then 
there were Xena's attempts to tell Gab something before her last fight with 
Yodoshi.  She had a look of anguish (much to briefly shown) right after she 
turned away from seeing the freed souls.  

It never occurred to me that Xena would do what she did simply because the 
circumstances forced it upon her, as opposed to based on her own sense of 
what was "right."  She usually recognized the traditions of honor wherever 
she was, so whether they seemed stupid or not wouldn't have made much 
difference to her respecting them.  So the question for me was always would I 
have felt the avenging thing would have felt less a convenient ploy, if we'd 
had more warning.  

After watching the DC, I'm still not sure.  I do think that DC scene with 
Akemi would've made me feel early on that Gab's quest was doomed to failure 
for some reason which even that scene left a mystery.  Despite the rumors 
about Xena's "final" death, despite the little hints from Akemi and Xena that 
there was some kink in the restoration plan, I still felt the adrenalin rush 
at Gab's quest.  I still felt there was hope.  In the end, that made the 
scene with Xena's urn even more poignant -- even with the "What do you mean 
she has to stay dead?" last-minute, out of nowhere aspect.  

From a dramatic standpoint, I can't say the cut scene with Akemi would've 
added much.  For me, it may have lessened the impact by foretelling too much. 
 It wouldn't have made the avenging thing more understandable.  All it 
would've done is maybe prepare me more for the possibility that, finally, 
this was it.  But for me, even now, I don't think anything could've prepared 
me for how I felt knowing the show had ended, that my last view of my 
favorite characters would be what it was.  And that's OK with me, because my 
emotions weren't tied to feeling betrayed or cheated by the circumstances of 
Xena's death.  They were tied to feeling captivated throughout AFIN, by being 
hit in the gut by the main characters' love and honor.  I think I'd still 
rather have that, than possibly fruitless efforts to lessen the impact of a 
wrenching event no matter how I looked at it.
 
 <<In AFINDC, Ghost Killer comes in and
 interrupts them, asking Gabrielle if she's ready. A moment later, Xena
 watches Gabrielle walk away, then walks into the fog, after which she
 buries her armor and sword (*sigh*) and takes off into the woods as she
 hears the enemy's army moving closer. In the following battle scenes
 which took place at the beginning of AFIN2, there are many little added
 scenes and what stuck out to me most was that this time, I really got
 the sense that Xena was *scared*. In the original version, I knew she
 was scared - arrows flying from every direction - but, gosh, she was
 Xena, and we've all seen her face crazy odds before without so much as
 twitching an eyebrow. So in the heat of the fight, when she calls out
 for Gabrielle, it hits home.>>

Yes, that scene really hit me too.  I got much more of a sense that Xena was 
in the fight of her life, which she knew would end in her death.  
 
 << In AFIN1, Xena and Gabrielle stop Higuchi from being burned. To the
 general observer, it's not really clear why Higuchi is on fire
 (obviously there are bad guys there, but why?). The scene omitted here
 was, IMO, also vital and should *not* have been cut. Shame on TPTB.
 Once Xena and Gab get to the water tower and douse the fire, a familiar
 figure on a horse, in samurai armor, appears - the guy who takes Xena's
 head later. He calls up to her that a good general knows when he's lost
 a battle, and he vows that he will meet Xena again, and soon.>>

Agreed.  Also, in the battle scene you mention earlier, Xena kicks a sword at 
the general, which he catches.  Both of these cut scenes establish that the 
general is someone to be reckoned with, not just some incompetent, 
opportunistic bad guy.  You realize that he is a real threat to Higuchi, 
rather than some minor inconvenience Xena uses to get herself to ghostdom.  
It also heightens Gabrielle's defeat of him and her status as a warrior in 
her own right.  In the aired version, the general came off as a gnat to me -- 
a questionable, pitiful foe for both Xena and Gabrielle.

<< Lots of groundwork was cut from the final episodes that should not have
 been. Some holes in the original story you could sail the QEII through.
 There were several small scenes, several bits and pieces, and a few
 scenes I felt were pivotal to the story. Tsk. Although I was able to
 deal with the original eps and Xena's mortality, seeing the director's
 cut answered alot of questions and made the story flow easier than it
 did in the original eps.>>

Again, I have mixed emotions.  Sure, I wish there weren't commercial breaks, 
that the thing could've run for three hours.  I'm glad I got to see those 
parts they left out.  But when I look at how those parts might've added to 
the "sense" or drama of the final product -- in the context of the air time 
they actually had -- I can't say they'd have made much difference for me.  I 
might've had more sympathy for Akemi, but I wouldn't have "connected" any 
better with whatever it was TPTB were trying to accomplish with her in a 
larger sense.  I still think her backstory was an ambitious thread that 
wasn't realized very well.  As I said above, the info about the general and 
the avenging thing would've helped my understanding a little, but not 
necessarily my appreciation of the main event.

As to the different endings -- the DC showing X&G together at the end, as 
opposed to G sailing off alone -- I have mixed emotions about that too.  The 
aired ending hit me harder, as my heart would've chosen the ending in the DC. 
 If the idea was to really convey "finality," the aired version certainly 
underscored that better (I think) than the DC.  Overall, I'd have to agree 
with Xenastaff that this was gutsier, with the aired version more focused on 
RT's vision than on fan response.  Personally, that's what I expected (and 
wanted) from him all along.
 
 <<Just my thots.>>

Thanks!  The process of editing eps is interesting to me.  I've been curious 
how other fans viewed the DC, especially how it might have affected the 
overall emotional impact.

 -- Ife
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:50:58 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Sacrifice II and Gabrielle

In a message dated 1/8/02 11:46:08 PM Central Standard Time, 
spri0037@tc.umn.edu writes:

<< So, although as a god he might 
 be able to pull off being two places in one (he sort of did that in 1st 
 Season Ties That Bind, playing both himself and Xena's "father" at the 
 same time), it still doesn't fit what I saw.  
 
 Any other thoughts from anyone else on this? >>

Yep.  Think Santa Claus.  That usually works for me when I'm left scratching 
my head at something in the Xenaverse.  <g>

- -- Ife
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 22:53:21 -0500
From: "Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] <<Director's Cut>>

@
@
@
@@
@
@

Srephanie made some really good points about the director's cut.  When I first
watched it I wasn't so sure it was better than the original airing.  When I
watched the original again I did miss the new footage.  I think specifically
the meeting between the samuri general and Xena a Haguchi was imprtant because
it fleshes out why he was so proud to have killed Xena and why he displayed
her body as he did.  Also the coversation with Akemi in the garden does
clearly show that Gabrielle was not sent on a wild goose chase, Xena fully
expected that Gabrielle would be successful and that she would resurrected
once again.  This obviously demonstrates Xena's confidence in Gabrielle's
abilities and her respect for her friend.

I think you were however a little harsh in your judgement of TPTB's cutting of
the episode.  There are time restraints in TV - there isn't much they could do
about that.  They cut where they had to.  The crucial scene with Akemi and
Xena was so bound up with the transformation into the birds that would have
been hard to edit that scene for time.  I think we should however be grateful
that Rob Tapert did manage to get his cut shown and maybe even get it out on
DVD in the future.  It would be nice if we could get director's cut of other
episodes but alas I'm afraid that would be impossible now - I'm sure the
footage is probably lost now.

CherylA
=========================================================
This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list.
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with
"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body.
Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems.
=========================================================

------------------------------

End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #9
************************************