From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V1 #81 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, December 27 2001 Volume 01 : Number 081 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] OT: Bruce Campbell And DANGER GIRL ["bookdaft" > [HawkFalco@a] Re: [chakram-refugees] crucification <> [Stephanie Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: Bruce Campbell And DANGER GIRL I picked up my comic pull last Friday and noticed a hard cover comic collection of the DANGER GIRL comics. Bruce Campbell provides the introduction. For a short time I wondered if this was a different Bruce Campbell, but the introduction reads much like the way he has talked at con appearances and in interviews. But the real indication it is the Xena/Herc Bruce Campbell is the cartoon of him, opposite his introduction. If that isn't the Bruce Campbell of Autolycus fame, I'll eat the drawing. Now that he is a published author, I suppose he gets to do these comments all the time now. I don't recall if he has done anything like this before, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility. It's a vast writing world, and I tap only a small bit of it. bd ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 23:01:49 EST From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] crucification Yesterday (12/25) History Channel had a British-made one-hour documentary The Real Spartacus (Channel 4, 2000). It was interesting and informative, and made clear that the Kirk Douglas film wasn't very accurate. One of their experts discussed crucification. He showed a genuine ancient Roman nail which he said was the exact type used in crucifications. It was a 7-inch iron standard-issue Roman military construction nail. For an execution, a nail was driven into each arm and a third through both ankles. The nails went through the arms a couple inches above the wrists, not the palms, as shown in Xena, or the wrists, as claimed by some other sources. A small wooden board was placed over each arm before the nail was driven in, as done to people's palms in Xena. He said a victim in good condition, such as an unwounded soldier, could last about 72 hours. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 23:40:17 EST From: HawkFalco@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] crucification << Ides of March & When Fates Collide>> Later: spoilers for Ides of March and When Fates Collide In a message dated 12/26/01 8:02:36 PM, KLOSSNER9@aol.com writes: >One of their experts discussed crucification. He showed a genuine ancient >Roman nail which he said was the exact type used in crucifications. It >was a 7-inch iron standard-issue Roman military construction nail. For an >execution, a nail was driven into each arm and a third through both ankles. The nails >went through the arms a couple inches above the wrists, not the palms, as shown >in Xena, or the wrists, as claimed by some other sources. A small wooden >board was placed over each arm before the nail was driven in, as done to people's >palms in Xena. He said a victim in good condition, such as an unwounded >soldier, could last about 72 hours. Ouch. Yeah, really tough stuff. One of the cruelest forms of execution which is why it was forbidden to use on Roman Citizens. (I guess Empress Xena didn't count in When Fates Collide) Because of the weight of the body hanging on the chest the prisoner slowly suffocated. This was delayed by the flexing of the legs against the foot rest, pumping air into the lungs until the body finally gave up. In Ides of March, Xena would have had a blessedly quick death since her legs were paralyzed. Gabrielle, the picture of health, would have had a grimmer fate. One can hope she died quickly of exposure. I wonder sometimes about Rob Tapert's fixation with this form of execution. He used it in several episodes at very key points and subjected his favorite characters to it. Not pretty. Applying for Roman Citizenship- Hawk ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:02:40 -0800 (PST) From: Stephanie Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] crucification <> Slight spoilers for Destiny way down below... . . . . . . - --- KLOSSNER9@aol.com wrote: > Yesterday (12/25) History Channel had a British-made one-hour > documentary > The Real Spartacus (Channel 4, 2000). It was interesting and > informative, > and made clear that the Kirk Douglas film wasn't very accurate. Nah, it isn't, but it made for some good Hollywood, and that was a very popular genre at the time. (I wish the genre would come back - a la Gladiator - they made amazing films back then, and today the possibilities are endless, and there is definitely a crowd chomping at the bit for its return - and since LOTR is making such huge waves, I doubt it'll be long before we get another good Roman epic.) > One of their experts discussed crucification. He showed a genuine > ancient > Roman nail which he said was the exact type used in crucifications. > It was a > 7-inch iron standard-issue Roman military construction nail. What Roman nails remind me of are railroad stakes that are driven into ties. Very simply made, functional, sturdy, reusable, able to withstand huge amounts of weight. For an > execution, > a nail was driven into each arm and a third through both ankles. This was a standard, but not the rule. Variations were made depending on the crime, the criminal, the crowd, and the mood of those ordering the execution. The > nails > went > through the arms a couple inches above the wrists, not the palms, as > shown in > Xena, or the wrists, as claimed by some other sources. It's thought that when the Romans adapted crucifixion for their own purposes, they fiddled around with different methods and techniques, finding out that with nails in the hands, the condemned might eventually slip off the cross and die or live to be recrucified but die from shock quickly. The goal of Roman crucifixion was first and foremost humiliation, then prolonged torture, a very painful death to teach others a lesson. The act of crucifixion wasn't actually to cause so much pain that death came in a haze, but to cause the condemned to asphyxiate under his own weight, fully aware. I saw a documentary once that described the most probable place that a nail would have been placed, and that was (as you said) about half a finger length to the inside of the wrist. Because the wrist is composed of several small bones, under so much pressure and weight they acted as a lock to keep the condemned on the crux. A small > wooden board > was placed over each arm before the nail was driven in, as done to > people's > palms in Xena. Another tactic used to prevent slippage (driving the nail in too far, for example) and movement, especially escape. I guess you could apply the term "washer" here. Blech. He said a victim in good condition, such as an > unwounded > soldier, could last about 72 hours. Many times, patrols were ordered to give water to the condemned, thus causing them to live longer, and suffer more. There were *lots* of crucifixions in Xena (I've lost track of how many times Xena was crux'ed...), and though I'm not a real expert on the topic, for the most part it looked like TPTB had done some research. One thing I always loved about XWP - one ep it's totally out in left field, wreaking havoc with historical timelines and generalities, the next ep it's extremely intricate in detail and bringing even the most obscure historical accuracies into the story. When I first started watching XWP, I remember running to the library to figure out where Amphipolis was - and from there, I ended up reading Thucydides, then about the politics between Athens, Corinth and Sparta, and from there I read about ancient military history, which led me to Alexander the Great, and then Asia Minor, which is where I completely delved into the legends of the Amazons - the Caucasus, the Nomads, ancient China, and world mythology, Egyptian astronomy and recordkeeping, the pilgrimage of Solan where he learned the story of Atlantis, ancient seafaring, the Vikings, the Celts, Roman colonization of Gaul, Boadicea, Danelaw, 1066.... :) (I'm a sponge, I could keep you here forever.) But, really, before "Destiny", I thought if they ever showed a crucifixion on XWP, it would be slight, and more Hollywood than history. A great quality of XWP - here, there, and everywhere in between. S. Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V1 #81 *************************************