From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest)
To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org
Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V1 #57
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Precedence: bulk


chakram-refugees-digest   Saturday, December 1 2001   Volume 01 : Number 057



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  [chakram-refugees] Re: Pasadena tape                    [Trek4u269@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Virus Warning "BadTransA"        [Trek4u269@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] << Dreamworker & Cradle Of Hope>>  [KTL <fsktl@auro]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Path Not Taken & The Reckoning & The Xena Scrolls>>  [KTL <fsktl@aurora]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Pasadena Tape             [meredith <meth@smoe.org>]
  [chakram-refugees] Xena Live 2!  [Sarah Anne Packard <abbagirl@cyberspace.]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena Live 2!              [meredith <meth@smoe.org>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena Live 2!  [Sarah Anne Packard <abbagirl@cybersp]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Black Wolf and Beware Of Greeks & X-Files (sort of)>>  [KTL <fsktl@auro]
  RE: [chakram-refugees] Pasadena Tape  ["Lee Daley" <leed@daleyenterprises.]
  RE: [chakram-refugees] <<The Black Wolf and Beware Of Greeks &  X-Files (sort of)>>  ["Lee Daley" <leed@daleyenterprises]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 02:19:53 EST
From: Trek4u269@aol.com
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Pasadena tape

cande@sunlink.net wrote :
<<I think the price is not out of line for a special interest tape >>
          compare it to a fan tape from another convention. Give an example 
showing
          of a star trek or other convention tape that charges as much.
<<If you figure into the cost of making the tape - paying your stars, 
probably USA
Studios a licensing fee, the cost of taping, editing and producing the tape
plus fixed costs and profit (Creations is a private business and does have to
make a profit) the tape is pretty reasonable.  Your customer base here is
small maybe 3000 at most (with may 1/3 purchasiing the tape) so you have to
charge more per tape.
          1. I have seen many fan tapes done for conventions. Usually done by 
a fan
              who has permission to set up a camera and enjoys editing, 
mixing sound,
              etc. Not like hiring a professional photographer to come film 
your wedding
             then selling the tapes to family and friends.
          2. Call it what it is. Profit. Tape is very high to generate a 
bigger profit due to
              a smaller market of buyers. High cost = higher profit but also 
equals less
              units sold. You dont HAVE TO charge more. You charge what you 
feel
              you can get.
          3. 3000 customer base = 1000 interested in video. Then you take at 
least 20%
              that will feel the tape is too high and not buy it. You now 
have 800. Take 
              into account that at least 10% of the 1000 will sell original 
tape on ebay 
              after they had made a copy (and the other rat-bastards that 
make copies
              and sell them cheaper on yahoo, ebay and other services). This 
dips into
              800 by 25% as people who just want to see the tape will buy it 
or aquire it
              by any means that is cheap (unlike people like me who are 
collectors and 
              want original packaging on my videos- plus I support the fan 
companies that
              sell ). So from 1000 potential sales we have 600 buyers 
including those that
              will duplicate the tape and undercut.
              1000 x 29.95 = 29,950 and 600 x 39.95 = 23,970. AND if you only 
sell 800
               at 29.95 you still make 23,960.
          4. I dont drink name brand bottled water, I dont go to starbucks, 
and I use
              coupons and buy things on sale. I have a family. The "throw 
away" money 
              angle is what they use to get us to feed kids in other 
countries. "just
              the cost of a cup of coffee per day". 
          5. Bottom line....the tape is way way expensive nomatter how anyone 
tries
              to justify it. I wouldnt go eat at a restraunt and pay 10 
dollars extra for
              food because the waitress told me they wanted to make more 
profit and
              that the production of my food was difficult, and they had to 
pay to import
              pigs from arkansas. I have a choice of where to eat or shop. 
The only 
              choice here is to pay, pay and gripe, or not pay and grip. 
There is no other
              marketer for the video. No competition to keep competitive 
pricing.
              3 of us here in my neighborhood see it as too expensive and 
therefore that
              is at least 3 of the 1000 priced away from purchase.
              
              Creation has to make money to pay bills and employees and no 
one is 
              gonna convince me the tape is reasonable....and they are 30 
minutes from 
               my house and great people but this has nothing to do with 
staff. Creation 
               staff is wonderful...on phone and in person.
               
I love youse guys
Vic
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 03:24:34 EST
From: Trek4u269@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Virus Warning "BadTransA"  

thanks for the info............
much appreciated
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 05:41:42 -0900 (AKST)
From: KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] << Dreamworker & Cradle Of Hope>>

On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 IfeRae@aol.com wrote:

(only two months ago--I AM catching up!)


Comments on many eps up to and including FINS

>
> > And the
> >  beginning of the goofy comedy of the series--Xena spinning around on that
> >  guy's turban. LOL!>>
>
> Which, if I remember correctly from one of the fan mags, was on the head of
> RT himself.  Prophetic, huh?  Heh heh.


Bring me the head of RT!  Boy, where have I heard that before?  Though I
never heard it was RT and the face shot isn't him, I don't think.


> >>
> >  And so on and so forth.  I don't see any substantial difference in the
> >  importance of Dreamworker as opposed to any of the other very early eps in
> >  terms of establishing the characters and setting up the recurring themes
> >  of the whole series.>>
>
> Oh, gotta disagree with you here, ol' wise one.  I'm repeating another post
> here (which is probably still among the thousands in your mailbox), but
> Dreamworker has sooo much enduring stuff.  We've got Gabrielle inadvertently
> responsible for Xena's breast dagger (which figures prominently in several
> eps, including Deliverer).  The first clue that Gabrielle is an enticing
> tidbit for evil doers who crave innocence, and that Xena will go through hell
> and high water to get Gabby back.  The very critical point that Xena needs
> her dark side.  The evidence that Gabrielle has her own little dark side and
> would very much like to learn weaponry (both of which Xena very much would
> like to keep her from), as well as that Gabrielle's primary "weapons" will be
> nonlethal.  Xena's willingness to use the spiritual realm when it suits her
> purposes.  The "what's beneath the surface" water imagery, which is replayed
> in the "like water soft, and hard," scene in Debt, as well as reinforces the
> contrasting, yin yang ideas of something appearing "good" one minute and
> "bad" the next, of containing the power to be either and both.  True, other
> first season eps help paint the context of Xena's quest and the crazy
> Xenaverse, but I think Dreamworker best lays out a lot of the philosophical,
> internal and interpersonal dynamics critical to understanding what's going on
> beneath the surface.


I still disagree with you on the special importance of Dreamworker.  I
stand by my earlier post which pointed out the foundation laying elements
of the first few eps. I'll be kind to the list re bandwidth and summarize
my comments rather than repeat them all.

Sins of the past started it all off with the basic theme of the show--Xena
as the "Best Human Warrior in the World" but one with an evil background,
determined to atone for her past. Gabrielle as a seeker of adventure,
feisty, brave and persistant.

In Chariots of War, we got Xena's strong feelings for children and their
positive and loving responses to her.  Xena's eye for the boys. Xena's
tendency to dress for function as opposed to fashion, Xena's desire for a
family (which she later found--"Mother I have a family.  I have
Gabrielle and Joxer.  And unfortunately, I have you"--and then lost
again.  The loss of family is a BIG motif in Xena. For many characters.
It's one of the most persistant and basic horrors of the series.) And the
introduction of the teasing banter and physical comedy the two women
engage in.

Cradle of Hope--the first meeting up with a mythical figure
and "fracturing" myths to fit into the "Xena as hero of every myth"
mindset which continued right up through season five with Xena involved
with Cleopatra and Antony and into season six with her being worked into
the myths of Lucifer and Michael.

I stopped there in my first post, but we could go on with the Xena and
Ares connection  which started in the Reckoning, her history with Marcus
the first of her "bad boys" in Path Not Taken, the ep Callisto showing a
very personal result of Xena's evil past and of course, introducing
Callisto herself, who had such a profound impact on Xena's life and that
of her children's.  And who provided the first sexual teasing woman to
woman in XWP.

Going back to the Reckoning, I feel that the effect of Ares' influence on
Xena's life has been as profound as the effect of Gabrielle's. They both
spoke to and enhanced different aspects of her, that incredible duality
that existed in this so complex and multi-layered character.  And which
wound up with that delightful sight of all three of them in bed having a
little slumber part in season six. (Works for me.) Although of course
Xena should have been in the middle, being the common thread between A&G,
the "one thing they agree on" and the only reason those two would ever be
in one bed together.  (Great gods, imagine if evil Callisto had been in that
bed too.  WHOOOOOOO!)

So, Ife, although I stand in awe before most of your posts due to your
fine incisive analytical mind and the honest integrity of your often
factually objective feelings, I'm going to dig in my heels on this one
and say, NOPE! Don't buy Dreamworker as profoundly more foundational than
most of the other season one eps. And that's...okay.



 >
> >Season three for example.  I have
> >  NEVER before gasped out loud at something I saw on a TV screen (that was
> >  fictional.) The incredible mix of philosophies and genres. The explosion
> >  of any encasing envelopes to mere shreds left behind in the dust. I just
> >  loved their outrageousness.>>
>
> Gotta agree with you here.  I think it was you who pointed out how right The
> Furies was as a prelude to the huge emotional turmoil we get in season 3.
> And there's that almost throwaway aspect of Dirty Half Dozen, where we get
> Gabrielle's "am I who I am, or who you made me," and Xena's comment to
> Glyphyra that some people (like Gabrielle) are "born good," which suggests to
> us the pedestal that Xena has Gabrielle on at that time.


Oh, which is the one where Gabrielle is grooming Argo and Xena comes over
and they talk about putting people on pedestals?  It's one of the season
four ones. And the dialogue is exquisite--it can be read either way, with
both women having each other on a pedestal.  Maybe the Convert?


  To this day,
> Deliverer, Gabrielle's Hope, The Debt, and Maternal Instincts stand as some
> of the finest dramatic TV I have ever seen -- with awesome acting from the
> stars and guests and breathtaking production.


Yes.  Actually, it was Gabrielle offing Meridian in the Deliverer which
was the first time I literally gasped out loud at the screen during XWP.
I was SO glad that nobody had spoiled that moment on the lists.  Boy, that
was just astounding!


 And then we get Bitter Suite,
> OAAA,


(Sound of klaxon.)  SAPPY XENA ALERT!  OAAA is still one I moan and roll
my eyes through due to Xena's indecisiveness and hand-wringing. SO not
Xena.  But your comments on it foreshadowing FINS has redeemed it some.
The sweaty Xena taking on the Persian army redeemed it then for me, even
though I'm not particularly fond of fight scenes.


 and Forgiven,

I was thinking of Forgiven just the other day, that marvelous moment when
Xena turns away from accepting forgiveness from an outside source,
refusing to accept that someone can just hand you atonement from an urn,
or as we Catholics were taught, blessed water. Again, strong foreshadowing
of FINS and how the series would end.  It's just a lovely shot, her
turning her back and heading out into the blazing sunset.


 where we begin to see our girls beginning to trade
> places, in terms coming to terms with not being perfect, and Xena seeing the
> possibilities in her imperfections. Both of them accepting that the other has
> clay feet, but loving each other anyway.   Xena's "No, you weren't born bad.
> You can re-create yourself every moment" comment to Tara was a big bit of
> growth since Dirty Half Dozen.

Yes.  Choose your behavior and choose your destiny.  As Xena did in FINS.

>
> >I will never forget XWP.>>
>
> Amen, sister.  Amen.
>
> -- Ife


*sigh*  What a great show XWP was.

KT
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 05:52:09 -0900 (AKST)
From: KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Path Not Taken & The Reckoning & The Xena Scrolls>>

Added Mortal Beloved bit

> @
> Themes from all seasons
> @
> @
> @
> @
>
> Well I'm still keeping to my plan more or less.  I watched The Path Not Taken.
> It's a better episode than I remember but it presents as interesting problem
> for me.  After seeing evil Xena in the Debt, the Ring arc, Past Imperfect
> etc., I just can't imagine where Marcus fits into her past.  Marcus is a nice
> enough for a professional thug but a bit boring for our post-Destiny
> pre-Hercules Xena.  I just can't see the Conqueror of Nations caddoling with
> Marcus.


I think Marcus came early on in her life.  My theory is that as Xena got
badder, so did her boys.  I think that Marcus was part of her life before
she met Caesar. (Unless this is contradicted in that ep, then I don't
think so.  Smile.)

I love their interaction on Mortal Beloved later on, when they're closing
the door against the harpies.  And Xena's just kind of staring intently at
Marcus. And he says, "What?" in this very amused and attentive tone.  And
she says, teasingly and affectionately, "You've lost weight."  And
saunters off, hips swinging and grinning.  Marcus watches her go, grinning
back.  Love it.

Actually, this is part of why I believe that Marcus was in her life in a
not so bad time. She obviously has great affection for him.  And we know
that the truly evil Xena had no affection for anybody.  I think she did
love Borias in some ways.  For his strength, ruthlessness and willingness
to be ALMOST as bad as she was.  But her feelings for Marcus are very warm
close, and therefore also more innocent.  Though a sexual attraction is
certainly still present.


 >
> The Reckoning is I guess a cannon episode.  We get introduced, as does Xena,
> to Ares.  The sparks do fly between the two from the very beginning.  It is
> also the beginning of recurring theme of Xena accepting punishment for crimes
> she didn't commit in order to atone for her past crimes.


Oh, oh, OH!  Excellent point!  Wow.



  Also in this episode
> we see Gabrielle emerging from her tag-along status.  She is Xena's most
> persistent champion even in the face of Xena's uncontrolled rage and for the
> first time we see Gabrielle's presence influence Xena's actions.  There's a
> nice light hearted moment at the end of the episode where Gabrielle socks Xena
> in payback which I think was a bit of business thought up by Lucy & Renee
> which I think shows the growing playfulness between the characters.
>

Very cute moment.  I miss that Gabrielle.  I wish...well, it's a constant
dilemma for me.  I would have loved to see Gabrielle retain her innocence
and happiness for another season or two because I just enjoyed that kid
so much, but yet I LOVE season three. I'd give up some of season four,
five and certainly six to have more eps of bratty teenager Gab, but I
wouldn't give up season three and the eps that resulted from the conflict
between the two lovers/soulmates/Best Friends for anything else.  I just
wish Gabrielle had recovered better from Season three in terms of being
happy and self-assured again.



> I also watched the Xena Scrolls just because I like it.  I love Janice and
> Mel.  A seminal Xena episode which starts us down the road which eventual
> leads to the idea of Xena and Gabrielle as soul mates and reincarnation.  It
> also I assume starts off the whole uber movement in fan fiction.  BTW there
> just aren't enough Janice & Mel stories (I thought I would just throw that out
> there).
>
> CherylA


Heh.  That ep is lovely for its switcheroo of the dominant character of
the relationship, in terms of Janice being more active, more dangerous,
more the hero of that story than Mel is.  Though once Xena arrived, she
took over that role, even over Janice.  And we got to see the vulnerable
side of Janice.  Xena just makes women open to her and tell her their
stories, ya know?  Like Helen, like Lao Ma, like Callisto.

Again, I gotta go along with Cheryl in her belief that the early eps were
all building up canon.  And very deftly too.

KT
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 12:57:26 -0500
From: meredith <meth@smoe.org>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Pasadena Tape

Hi,

CherylA responded:

>I think the price is not out of line for a special interest tape.

I disagree.  Everything Creation produces is "special interest", i.e. only 
of interest to those who are big enough fans of the show to want to spend 
money on memorabilia.  I've got every fan club kit (and the Gold version of 
the next kit on pre-order) and all the calendars, as well as a bunch of 
photos purchased at the cons I've attended.  While there are HCNB's out 
there with much more stuff than me, I'm still in a small subset of the 
overall viewership of X:WP during its run.  Compare the number of Creation 
customers to the overall number of viewers of the show and I'm sure you'll 
end up with a very small percentage.

The prices for Creation's merchandise so far haven't been out of line, 
considering the necessarily small production runs to meet the small 
potential buyership.  But almost $40 for a two-hour VHS tape, which someone 
else pointed out will degrade over time is robbery, plain and simple.

>If you
>figure into the cost of making the tape - paying your stars, probably USA
>Studios a licensing fee, the cost of taping, editing and producing the tape
>plus fixed costs and profit (Creations is a private business and does have to
>make a profit) the tape is pretty reasonable.  Your customer base here is
>small maybe 3000 at most (with may 1/3 purchasiing the tape) so you have to
>charge more per tape.  You can't compare tape like this to something like the
>Mummy that is sold at Wal-Mart for $15.  A tape like that is massed produced
>and will sell tens of thousands of units.  This tape probably won't be even
>duplicated until orders are recieved and when it is it will be a tiny run
>which will cost more than a large run.

I have purchased videotapes from small indie bands who are happy when 50 
people show up to see them play for around $20, which not only recouped 
their production costs but gave them profit to boot.  Creation has much 
more capital at their disposal than an indie band.  There is absolutely no 
need for them to charge that much for the tape aside from wanting to line 
their pockets even more just because they know they can.  I fear that those 
who feel the price is way too high and forego purchasing the tape are going 
to be far outnumbered by those who don't care how much they have to pay, 
just so long as they can get their hands on that tape.  And then Creation 
will feel vindicated, and know that they can continue charging extortionate 
prices because people will pay no matter what.  I wish more fans would vote 
with their wallets and not pay the price for the tape, and let Creation 
know exactly why they're not ordering. That's the only way to see more 
reasonable pricing, I fear.

>Now let me digress for a moment about relative cost.  I have read posts on
>another list where there are similar complaints about the cost.  If you think
>about we all probably spend $40 a month on trifles anyway.  If you drink
>bottle water, Starbuck coffee,  vending machine soda (you realized at $.55 a
>can that comes to $13 a case for soda) you have easily spent the cost of the
>tape.

Whoa, you only have to pay $0.55 a can at a vending machine?? Where do you 
live?  We have a cheap machine in our office building -- $0.75.  Most 
everywhere else around here it's $0.80 to $1.00.

But I digress.  :)  I understand what you're saying -- it's the same 
argument public radio uses.  I support public radio.  But unlike public 
radio, Creation is a purely for-profit venture that is setting exorbitant 
prices just because they think they can.  They have no interest in public 
service, just in improving their bottom line.  I appreciate the need for a 
business to run in the black, but there's a difference between pricing for 
profit and pricing for exploitation.

If Creation had set this price because a portion of the proceeds were going 
to charity, I'd pony up the cash in an instant.  (I've got one of those 
signed Starship Monopoly games on the way to me right now, and I'll 
probably never open the box.)  It's not so much the cost as the principle 
of the thing.

And that's all I'll say about that.  I'm sure Sharon's got the point by 
now, if she's paying attention.  Sharon -- look into a charity to benefit 
from the sale of the tapes, and guaranteed you'll sell a heluva lot more of 
them.


=======================================
Meredith Tarr
New Haven, CT USA
mailto:meth@smoe.org
http://www.smoe.org/meth
"an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi
=======================================
Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series
http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:01:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Sarah Anne Packard <abbagirl@cyberspace.org>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena Live 2!

 Hey guys...I just heard from a few sources that Chicago's
About Face theatre company is planning on doing a sequel to their hit
stage production of "Xena Live" (which ran in late '99, see
www.xenalive.com for details), woo-hoo!! :) Apparently it will run from
March 28th thru May 19th 2002, and will be written by playwright Claudia
Allen, who did the first one...that's all I know. Exciting! I was lucky
enough to see the first show while in town for the Chicago Xena con, and
it was just fabulous! 


 -Sarah, aka the abbagirl-


P.S. Does anyone have a tape of Alex Tydings' episode of "Sheena"
("Treasure of the Sierre Mende")? I missed it... :( 
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Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 17:09:16 -0500
From: meredith <meth@smoe.org>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena Live 2!

Hi,

Sarah reported:

>  Hey guys...I just heard from a few sources that Chicago's
>About Face theatre company is planning on doing a sequel to their hit
>stage production of "Xena Live"

Oh, wow!!!  Thanks for passing this along.

I managed to see the first one, thanks to a fortuitously timed business 
trip.  It was hilarious, and amazingly well done.  Alas I'm not getting 
sent to the Illinois office any more, but I'd seriously consider a weekend 
trip to Chicago for this (and maybe a Cubs game to boot :).  I've got 
friends to stay with, too.  Hmmm.  <ponder>

Claudia Allen is one of *the* names in Chicago theater.  She was named Best 
Playwright In Chicago in 1999.  It was amazing to me that they got her to 
write the first installment, and it's even more impressive that she's 
coming back for #2.

I hope they get Elizabeth Laidlaw back to play Xena.  She was perfect.  I'd 
daresay she was about as close as one could hope to get without casting 
Lucy Lawless herself.

Amy Matheny, the mastermind behind all this (and Gabrielle in the 
production) is very cool, too.  She came to Xena Night at Meow Mix during a 
short break in the production of the first one and it was a pleasure to 
meet her.

This is such happy news ... I hope it all works out!!

=======================================
Meredith Tarr
New Haven, CT USA
mailto:meth@smoe.org
http://www.smoe.org/meth
"an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi
=======================================
Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series
http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 17:21:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Sarah Anne Packard <abbagirl@cyberspace.org>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena Live 2!

> Oh, wow!!!  Thanks for passing this along.

 No problem. :) Although I probably should add as a disclaimer that I
haven't seen this officially announced anywhere online, but it does sound
like it's a go, although those dates might be tentative, I dunno...I don't
even live in Chicago, but I heard this from a Chicago Xenite friend who
heard it from someone else, etc. :) And they said About Face themselves
announced it, I dunno where or when or anything. 

> 
> I managed to see the first one, thanks to a fortuitously timed business 
> trip.  It was hilarious, and amazingly well done.

 Indeed...and it was an added thrill to have the cast of the show onstage
and on hand at the Chicago con that year, they were all super nice. I
remember complimenting the woman who played Callisto on the eerie accuracy
of her portrayal, and to my surprise she hadn't even really watched the
show (although I think maybe they showed her some Callisto eps during the
rehearsal process maybe)! Everyone was damn good, even when they didn't
look like the stars (most of them did though; Joxer, Gabby and Callisto
especially. Both Xena's had all the mannerisms down, too). Anyway, they 
did a Q&A at the con as well as a little excerpt from the show, very cool.
I was also at the Xena Palace online chat they had with Amy Matheny and
Elizabeth Laidlaw from the show (Gabby and Xena).

  Alas I'm not getting 
> sent to the Illinois office any more, but I'd seriously consider a weekend 
> trip to Chicago for this (and maybe a Cubs game to boot :).  I've got 
> friends to stay with, too.  Hmmm.  <ponder>
> 

 I have friends too. :) I would definitely make a trip...too bad it won't
coincide with the con planned for Chicago in Jan or something I think (the
con that was originally announced by Creation as a Trek con, but now
amended to Trek & Xena, hmmm...)...by the way, does anyone know, are the
Chicago Xena Nights still happening these days?


> 
> I hope they get Elizabeth Laidlaw back to play Xena.  She was perfect.  I'd 
> daresay she was about as close as one could hope to get without casting 
> Lucy Lawless herself.

 I agree!

> 
> Amy Matheny, the mastermind behind all this (and Gabrielle in the 
> production) is very cool, too.  She came to Xena Night at Meow Mix during a 
> short break in the production of the first one and it was a pleasure to 
> meet her.
> 

 She is amazing...and she was a dead-on Gabby, too, BGSB and all. She did
an interview with the official Xena magazine once, I think.

> This is such happy news ... I hope it all works out!!

 Me too! :) I'm still regretting that I didn't steal one of the Xena Live
posters they had up at the theatre when we went to see it, I know someone
else who did, heh heh...I also never got a T-shirt tho I wanted one...


  -Sarah, aka the abbagirl-
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:33:20 -0900 (AKST)
From: KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Black Wolf and Beware Of Greeks & X-Files (sort of)>>

Boy, I'm enjoying following along on Cheryl's walk down memory lane.  Even
if I don't have the time to rewatch them.  I realize that I almost never
watch stuff from season one or two, because I felt 3 through 6 were so
much better.  The acting was better (gods, some of Lucy's and Renee's
readings, postures and gestures from the early eps were downright
excruciating) and the later stories were far more sophisticated with deep
delving into the nature of evil and it's effect upon our lives.  The later
stuff also had the benefit of years of history of the series so that every
new ep was enmeshed in all kinds of subtle references to previous
eps, earlier decisions made by Xena and the resulting effects these had on
her life.  But I fell in lovee with XWP in season two, when we were all
much more innocent and when just the sight of the best warrior in the
world being a woman was enough to make us snap up and pay attention.

So following along with Cheryl has a special nostalgic joy all it's own.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Cheryl Ande wrote:

> @
> @
> @
> @
> @
> @
> @
> @
> @@
>
> I remember Black Wolf as a kind of lackluster episode but it has a few good
> moments.  It is the episode where Xena announces "she has many skills"  (
> embroidery is one of them), Gabrielle shows up in her Amazon brownie outfit,


BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!  Good one!



> and Salmoneus nearly gets socked by Xena for mentioning Gabrielle's tomatoes.
> Salmoneus has my favorite moment in the episode when he is shocked that not
> only is Gabrielle Xena's friend but that Xena has friend at all - the look on
> LL face at this blunder is priceless.


Also, this is the one with the famous scene of Salmoneous lying on the
ground and seeing and saying as his eyes track up,  "Those boots, that
leather, those legs...XENA!"

It's also the first time we see Xena as a teacher, even if a somewhat
crude one to Flora.  How when Flora was little she couldn't climb into the
tree with the big kids and Xena would put her hand down and say, "Here"
and then when Flora reached for it, she'd pull it away. (Wonder if she
sceamed out, "Psyche!")  And later Flora explains the lesson--that deep
down you have to trust in yourself to achieve things, not just take a hand
up.  And so here she is today, leading the rebellion.

Again, a woman as leader image.  Another thing I lvoed so much about XWP
the important jobs and attention paid to women in this series.

Also a lovely exchange between Flora and Xena:

Xena  "You've grown up"
Flora "And you've grown legendary".

Nice dialogue.

<Snipping for bandwidth>

Beware of Greeks:

>
> Of course this the most notable cannon episode because we are introduced to
> the refurbished and eventually doomed Perdicus.  He kisses Gabrielle twice
> thus really sealing his fate - not only is to die but he will be viciously
> emasculated in dozens of fan fiction stories.


BWAAHHAHAHAHAH!  Yes, the infamous "perdickless".  LOL


 It is however interesting to
> see the difference between how Xena treats him in this episode and the Return
> Of Callisto.  When Xena is introduced to him in this episode (she obvious
> didn't remember from Sins Of The Past)


That's 'cause Xena realized he was a totally different guy.  Shorter,
cuter, nicer.  Gab of course was totally fooled by this new Perdy.  She
knew he was different but she couldn't QUITE put her finger on it...


she seems very pleased that Gabrielle
> meets up her old beau.  In the TROC Xena seems to be a little less welcoming
> if not just a bit hostile.
>
> Also in this episode it is the first time Gabrielle fighting with her staff.
> She is fact a very good fighter at this point so I must assume Xena and
> Gabrielle have been practicing staff fighting in between Xena sewing up the
> new duds for Gabby ( this obviously where Gabby gets the new outfit because we
> just learned in BW that Xena is an excellent seamstress).
>


Oh, good point!


> This episode also gives rise to my favorite blooper.  The one where Xena and
> Gabrielle are walking off after Helen and Perdicus go off together and turn to
> one another and say simultaneously "slut".
>

Yeah, that's a fun one.  I like the ones where Lucy throws things (like
ambrosia, swords) and hits the camera lens more though.  Heh.


> More later.
>


Good!  Looking forward to them.

KT

> CherylA
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 21:27:16 -0500
From: "Lee Daley" <leed@daleyenterprises.cncdsl.com>
Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Pasadena Tape

> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org]On Behalf Of meredith
<major snippage>
> And that's all I'll say about that.  I'm sure Sharon's got the point by
> now, if she's paying attention.  Sharon -- look into a charity to benefit
> from the sale of the tapes, and guaranteed you'll sell a heluva
> lot more of
> them.

Thus while reducing their per unit profit, increasing their overall profit,
and developing significant 'good-will'.  Thus endeth the Economics lesson.
;)


LeeD
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 21:27:39 -0500
From: "Lee Daley" <leed@daleyenterprises.cncdsl.com>
Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] <<The Black Wolf and Beware Of Greeks &  X-Files (sort of)>>

KTL wrote
>
>
> Boy, I'm enjoying following along on Cheryl's walk down memory lane.  Even
> if I don't have the time to rewatch them.

Have to put in a ME TOO!  Thanks Cheryl, you make us remember and analyze
with the benefit of 5 more seasons.


>  I realize that I almost never
> watch stuff from season one or two, because I felt 3 through 6 were so
> much better.

There I have to disagree.  Now I was hooked (hook, wire leader, sinker,
swivel, and a meter of doubled line [RT homage]} by about the third episode,
so I might be a littled biased.  But without season 1 and 2 there would
never have been a season 3 and following, hades, season 2 was a chancy
proposition. But there was something there, a novelty, a freshness, a
campiness that started my addiction.

>  The acting was better (gods, some of Lucy's and Renee's
> readings, postures and gestures from the early eps were downright
> excruciating)

I wouldn't go that far, after all it did survive to season three.  Again the
"campiness" factor.

> and the later stories were far more sophisticated with deep
> delving into the nature of evil and it's effect upon our lives.

It was more sophisticated and had matured, but there were fans who found
this objectionable and sworn off Xena forever. No growth is without it's ill
effects.  Hades some of Shakespear's early stuff wasn't all that good, but
it made enough people go to the Globe so that her could mature and develop.
And I'm sure that there were Globe-goers who groused about "verily this new
play is too sophisticated for my taste".

> The later
> stuff also had the benefit of years of history of the series so that every
> new ep was enmeshed in all kinds of subtle references to previous
> eps, earlier decisions made by Xena and the resulting effects these had on
> her life.  But I fell in love with XWP in season two, when we were all
> much more innocent and when just the sight of the best warrior in the
> world being a woman was enough to make us snap up and pay attention.

That's what caught us.  We would have been happy if it continued this way.
The amazing thing is that TPTB took the risk to let the show, and the
actresses grow into something better. They had enough faith in themselves
and in US to "mess with success".

>
> So following along with Cheryl has a special nostalgic joy all it's own.

That it does! Even if it just jogs the memory of the "first flush of young
love"

>>>>>>>Here endeth comments to KTL's comments>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



<snip>

>  It is however interesting to
> > see the difference between how Xena treats him in this episode
> and the Return
> > Of Callisto.  When Xena is introduced to him in this episode
> (she obvious
> > didn't remember from Sins Of The Past)
>
>
> That's 'cause Xena realized he was a totally different guy.  Shorter,
> cuter, nicer.  Gab of course was totally fooled by this new Perdy.  She
> knew he was different but she couldn't QUITE put her finger on it...
>
>
> she seems very pleased that Gabrielle
> > meets up her old beau.  In the TROC Xena seems to be a little
> less welcoming
> > if not just a bit hostile.

This does help date the transition from "tag-along" to "lover".   In
"Greeks" Xena seems to be in the "here's a reliable guy I can 'marry her
off' to".  In "Return" there is more than a hint of jealousy.  Here is the
time bracket when "IT" happened.

<snip>

LeeD; Warrior Jester
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