From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V1 #32 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, November 5 2001 Volume 01 : Number 032 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] The Oxygen interview ["H.J.J. Hewitt" > and Sundry Thoughts ["bookda] Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy,<> and Sundry Thoughts [Ric] Re: [chakram-refugees] Spoilers <> [IfeRae@aol.co] [chakram-refugees] Samari and heads ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:09:47 -0600 From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" Subject: [chakram-refugees] The Oxygen interview Turns out it was just a replay of the 4 min. 40 sec. one with the ditsy reviewers shown previously. (Lucy, however, did look drop-dead gorgeous.) TEXena ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:56:08 -0500 From: "bookdaft" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Lucy,<> and Sundry Thoughts Spoilers for Friend In Need, Sins Of The Past, minor ones for Callisto, Locked Up And Tied Down. I've been mulling over Lucy's comments regarding Friend I Need (FIN) in ENTERAINMENT DAILY since it broke in the last few weeks. Some of what I'm putting down here have been thoughts collecting over the last few months from information that has come out subsequent to the first airing of the finale and what I think now about what Lucy has said. I am attempting to post this prior to the Directors Cut scheduled to air on November 3 on Oxygen, but I wont make it. I wont be able to see the Directors Cut prior to posting this, so please take that into consideration if you respond. I also want to make clear that this is my opinion only. The purpose of this post is not to sling abuse on anyone who was involved in the production of Friend In Need, from Rob Tapert through RJ Stewart, Lucy and Renee down to the lowliest grip or best boy. I would simply want to lay out why the finale never worked for me and why Lucys comments are welcome. If you have had more than enough posts about the finale, I suggest you skip this one. It is very long. But in order for me to move on, I think I need to do this at least one more time. For those who may not have seen the article, the URL is located at: http://199.97.97.16/contWriter/endnews2/2001/10/11/enter/3487-0050-pat_nytim es.html I was rather startled by her comments, although pleased, because I did not expect anyone from the show to have second thoughts about the ending. Lucy s acknowledgement that they wandered far from what they had deemed one of the most important aspects of the show is, I think, indicative of the other things that were ignored and which I consider to also be important parts of the show. One of the most memorable lines regarding the finale that Ive heard is: "FIN was a good finale for Sins Of The Past". While the statement seems flip, I think it was really a concise way of saying the finale drew directly from the series opener. Unaccountably, seasons two (and possibly the rest of season one) through the majority of season six seem ignored. When Sins Of The Past ended, we knew that Xena was searching for redemption and Gabrielle wanted to be a warrior. At the end of FIN, Xena seemed to have achieved her redemption and Gabrielle was the new Warrior Princess, having been given her mantle by Xena (irrespective of whether Gabrielle really wanted it.) I know many can see a progression of the characters from season one through the finale, but at the end Xenas progress was a bafflement to me. From the beginning, Xena was willing to give everything she had for the greater good, even her life. When she declares that staying dead was the final, the good, the RIGHT thing to do, I was surprised that there was any doubt that she would do it differently or that she had learned from Gabrielle how to willingly sacrifice herself. That was always there from the beginning. I think her self-loathing was pretty high in Sins Of The Past. In the finale, I suspect it wasnt much better. If anything, Xena gave up on herself far too easily and that was still evident in the final five or ten minutes. In my view, the only thing she learned over the six seasons was that the only way to find peace was to die for your sins. I dont much care for that message. One of the relevant statements from the interview I want to start with is this: ``Our show kept talking about `the soul mate, the soul mate' for all those seasons,'' the actress says. At Dragoncon, Steve Sears discussed his time on Xena. At one point, his view of Xena and Gabrielles relationship came up. This is as close to verbatim as my memory allows. He said: I always saw Xena and Gabrielle as two people so close they were separated by no more than skins width. Then he added dryly, knowing the outcome of the finale, I guess I was wrong. During his tenure, he had written scripts which had promoted the relationship and had been on staff when the concept the Xena and Gabrielle as soul mates was established. Despite the fact that he has been gone for over a season and a half, the show still extolled that concept, and perhaps more heavily than when he was still there. During an interview, Rob said that his original intent was that the show was to be about how Xena and Gabrielle faced the world. Instead, it became the story about their relationship. Over the years, Rob, Lucy, Renee and RJ all said that the relationship between Xena and Gabrielle was the core, even the very heart of the show. During FIN, the story of the relationship was relegated to the background. By the end of FIN, it was obvious the finale was really about the characters as separate individuals and their stories, just as it had been in SOTP. If SOTP at its end was to be about Xena and Gabrielle coming together and facing the world together, FIN at its close became about the two of them separating, Gabrielle to face her destiny and Xena to face nothing in particular. She can't because she's dead. Clearly, they abandoned the heart of the show, although unintentionally. Perhaps that is what Rob meant when he talked about coming full circle - two individuals, who had been separated by space, come together for a time and at the end, were separated again, but now by a barrier of death. So what happened? Why (or how) did they get way from this self-described core? When I attended Dragoncon, one of the panels was entitled - to the best of my recollection - "The Sixth Season Was To Be About Redemption - What Happened To That?" This was a surprise to me, since I understood the 6th season was to be about Xena and Gabrielle. Even now, I can't see that redemption was the main theme and that may be due to the notice of cancellation. Planning had been going on for a seventh season prior to the announcement of cancellation, although I dont know for how much of that time. Then the direction of the show had to be rethought. Compounding this issue was the temporary approval to do TV movies, which fell through, and the subsequent rethinking of the rest of the season. Rob has said that he and RJ talked of this kind of ending for a very long time. Presumably, it was perhaps the most developed idea they had available for a finale. Rumors of going to Japan surfaced somewhere around the 5th season, when there was some concern whether there would be a 6th season. During the final season, the Japan episodes got shuffled forward and back to accommodate the movies, which never came about. I believe RJ said in an interview that he and Rob knocked the script out in around 5 weeks because they knew what they wanted to do. My opinion is that Rob always had this (Xena's death and placing it in Japan) in mind for the finale. If so, then he was imposing a predetermined concept on a show that had at least one element - the relationship - which had taken on a life of its own. It was like fitting a round peg (Xena's redemption) in a square hole (the relationship). To me, the finale never sprang from the prior 6 years. It simply seemed imposed because that was the way they thought they had to end the show. I think the nature of the two stories made it impossible for them to factor the relationship into the story. As long as they were determined that Xena could only find her redemption in death and Gabrielle must fully become a warrior and carry on Xenas task, then there was no room for the relationship. The characters had to go their separate routes. Their routes were physically separate and, I think, emotionally separate as well. From approximately the latter half of the first part through the end of part 2, Xena and Gabrielle are separated physically, only coming together at several different points during that time period, until they meet at the end. This structure was replicated in the goals of the two women. Xena was determined to release the trapped souls; Gabrielle was struggling to return Xenas spirit to her body. Along the way they achieved two unexpected and different things: Xena found her redemption and Gabrielle became a fledged warrior. The problem was that in realizing these goals, Xena must stay dead while Gabrielle had to stay alive and that meant they were still separated physically. In emotional terms, they both wanted different things and it was impossible to satisfy both desires and allow the relationship to continue, as we had known it. There were obviously drawn parallels between SOTP and FIN. One of the most notable was the burying of Xenas armor. In SOTP, it isnt clear whether Xena was burying the armor prior to committing suicide (although how she meant to do that without some sort of tool, is a problem) or whether she was burying her past prior to going home. In the context of the rest of the episode, she seemed to be trying to start over again in Amphipolis. In FIN, it was clear she was burying her weapons and armor prior to dying. Several inferences can be drawn from this same action: 1) Both burials symbolize starting anew, one battling for good, the other existence as a spirit 2) Both represent the death of the previous life the first burial suggested the death of her evil past as warlord, the second the death of her life as a seeker of redemption (and, Id say, her death of her life, period) 3) One begins her journey toward redemption, the other ends with her acceptance of it 4) One starts her life with Gabrielle, the second ends it I personally had little interest in Xena's redemption and Gabrielle had come along wonderfully as a warrior, so FIN was unlikely to strike a chord with me. I can appreciate Lucy's view about the importance of redemption in Xena's life, since she lived in Xenas skin and knew that guilt was what drove the character. But I have a different philosophy regarding redemption that is at odds with Xena's. I'm not convinced that anyone can really be redeemed for heinous crimes, but if they can, dying isn't the way to do it. Lucy apparently accepts Xena's redemption and I find her willingness to rethink and view the finale through different eyes remarkable. I also applaud her for saying so. ``At the end,'' she says, ``what we did was take Gabrielle's soul mate away from her. Gabrielle (Renee O'Connor) and Xena were split up. And I think that had a dreadful resonance for very many of our fans. ``For that I'm really sorry.'' At one time after FIN and before this interview, Lucy had said that "the relationship continues." That certainly was the intent, but it was done in such a way that it left it open to question. Xena was left a ghost (or was she? Is Gabrielle really crazy?) and there seems to be a multitude of interpretations of what that means. Britannica puts it this way: "Ghost - soul or spectre of a dead person, usually appearing as a living being or as a nebulous likeness of the deceased and, occasionally, in other forms. Belief in ghosts is based on the ancient notion that a man's spirit is separable from his body and may maintain its existence after his death." (Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc., 1976, Micropaedia Vol IV, p.524.) The operative words here are, "belief in ghosts." Gabrielle has to believe in Xena as a ghost or otherwise Xena won't exist to always be with her. This makes Xena Tinker belle-like ("clap your hands..."). The Quest and Last Of The Centaurs are the only experiences we have of the dead and the living interacting. In both episodes the dead individuals Xena and Ephiny both appear to be ephemeral, although Xena tells Gabrielle think of me and this seems to bring a solid Xena to Gabrielle. Ephiny could only be seen and heard by Gabrielle. Since Ephiny could possess Gabrielles body, much like Xena did Autolycus, there is no other basis for thinking that Xena should be a solid, physical presence other than in Gabrielles belief. I have a copy of one of the early shooting drafts and in the final scene Xena and Gabrielle are on the boat. Kenji is walking along the shore and Xena waves and speaks to him. Kenji doesnt react, and Gabrielle has to remind Xena that he cant see or hear her. If it had aired, it would have made clear one of the drawbacks to Xenas spirit only continuing on being dead is definitely different than being alive. As long as Gabrielle believes, Xena exists for her. If she stops believing, then Xena is gone to her. It is a shaky foundation on which to base a relationship. I am hard-pressed to see the relationship as continuing and Lucy acknowledges that in the quote above. No, the show wasnt wholly about the relationship between Xena and Gabrielle, but by placing such importance on it and then reducing it to a secondary status after making it the centerpiece of the for at least one or more seasons, certainly left many fans stunned. There are many reasons why people came to and kept watching the show. Some saw The Heros Journey in Xenas search for redemption. I did some research on the Heros Journey and found there are websites devoted to teaching it for storytelling. Based on the criteria I located, (see http://www.napanet.net/~aripub/Journey.htm), the real hero in the series is Gabrielle. The reasons why she is the hero would take too long to enumerate here and is for another post; suffice it to say that except for the final stage The Return To The World, Gabrielle met all those criteria. Xenas role thus becomes that of mentor. But interestingly enough, nowhere is the hero required to die, and Gabrielle doesnt. But for all those who have postulated Xena following the heros journey, she wouldnt have died either. Again, this is for another post, but Xenas journey may have ended when she attempted to return home in Sins Of The Past (sans the gift). (I want to add that I have not studied the heros journey and may be wrong about it. But the research I have done suggests death neednt be a part of the journey.) For me, it wasnt about watching the heros journey or just the Greek myths or the Greek gods or even the sword and sorcery. I started watching because I wanted to see how the producers handled a warrior woman as a lead character. Xena and Gabrielles relationship was what kept me coming back and watching, but I wanted to see Xena kick ass and that is gone now. If the show made the relationship secondary, I also think they abandoned some of the things that had been examined over the last six years and apparently presented as truisms. One of those concepts was turning your life around. In FORGIVEN, they used Tara to explore that concept. Bad girl though she was, she was encouraged by Xena - to forgive herself and do good (if you do good, then you are good.) And Xenas whole life with Gabrielle was an example of remaking herself. While that neednt be the theme of the finale, it seems to me Xenas staying dead refutes that message. In the end, FIN is, highly moralistic. In the last thirty years, there has been a trend toward using the death penalty in capital cases. Some of this appears to be due to increases in crime, but some also seems the result of more conservative thinking and attitudes. When I was growing up, belief in the rehabilitation and reform of criminals was a foundation of penal philosophy. But as the crime rate went up and television news aired many terrible crimes, the majority of Americans approved the use of capital punishment partly as a deterrent, and partly as vengeance. Friend In Need reflects the attitude of society in the United States. Xena had to pay her debt to society by staying dead. The underlying message was that there was never any redemption in doing good; the only fair and moral thing to do was die, so that she could receive her redemption, i.e., redemption via punishment. What is so odd is that over the last six years the show took the line that a reformed person is acceptable. There were the infrequent times, such as in Callisto and Locked Up and Tied Down, when they took exception to that thinking for a time. But in general the show took the position that a person could be reformed and contribute to society and could actually be considered good. Gabrielle always represented this viewpoint. I never expected the finale would take the conventional attitude of contemporary society. That may also have contributed to my shock. Moreover, they stifled the rehabilitative view they had presented throughout six seasons, by having Gabrielle accept Xenas death so easily. Of course, they also jiggered things so that she ran out of time. To me this made the finale conservative (even reactionary), which is something I never expected at all. For a show that prided itself on doing the unconventional, it was a surprise that, in the end, it was conventional after all. This has run on far too long, so I will close here by thanking Lucy for taking the time to try to look at the finale through the eyes of the fans like me who were so disappointed and hurt. It was a very thoughtful thing to do. I also want to thank her, Renee, and everyone else who worked on the show for all their efforts. I do appreciate their very hard work. bd ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:35:26 EST From: Richan@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Lucy,<> and Sundry Thoughts Bookdaft writes: << At Dragoncon, Steve Sears discussed his time on Xena. At one point, his view of Xena and Gabrielles relationship came up. This is as close to verbatim as my memory allows. He said: I always saw Xena and Gabrielle as two people so close they were separated by no more than skins width. Then he added dryly, knowing the outcome of the finale, I guess I was wrong. >> At least Gabrielle can see Xena and converse with her. The worst ending would to have been stuck in the same body like in SUCCESSION, to realize that the other is so near but that you can't communicate with your soulmate directly. Richan ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:35:38 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Spoilers <> In a message dated 11/3/2001 11:04:55 PM Central Standard Time, XenAddict@aol.com writes: > small > > spoilers > > for > > the > > Director's > > Cut of Friend in Need > >> Although I still have problems with Xena staying dead for the cause of > vengeace, I will admit that seeing the originally unaired footage between > Xena and Akemi which set this up, did help somewhat. It paved the way a > little and helped it to not seem so out of left field. There was other new > footage that was alot of fun to see, as well. > Can you say more about this? Does Akemi actually say Xena must stay dead? Does the reason seem to make more sense? Does it suggest that this is a standing "rule" in this culture, or needed only for Xena (presumably because of the nature of the "crime")? Thanks for your comments! I've seen a few others, but got the impression the new segments didn't add much. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:35:30 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Samari and heads I was watching a show about shoguns on History International when they mentioned that one of the warlords was ambused while he was wiling away his afternoon displaying the heads he had cut off. Sure enough the platform showen in the drawing was exactly like the one Xena's head was resting on. I though it was interesting --- grusome -- but interesting. So at least in this instance TPTB seemed to be pretty acurate. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V1 #32 *************************************