From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V1 #26 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, October 30 2001 Volume 01 : Number 026 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Re: <> [Mirrordrum ] [chakram-refugees] Oxygen/Xena vacation cruise [Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> At 04:46 PM 10/29/2001 -0800, John Altoon wrote: >--- Cleanthes wrote: > > At 01:10 PM 10/29/01 -0500, Mirrordrum wrote: > > >spoilers > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > >/ > > > > I've done snips of good reading - I feel so guilty for not replying at > > length, but if I let guilt stop me, I won't even reply at short, so here > > goes: guilt? oooooh, it's so XENAIC. where's the atonement, eh? ;-> glad you wrote something, anything. always a pleasure though i never half understand what you're on about. had to go look up madam criscoescueti or whomever (i'm not that far down the post and too lazy to scroll). >Thank you for this. There have been some great posts recently that I have >thought about a lot, and now regret not replying to. weeellll, i'll bet i'm sorrier than you are. you at least got to know what you thought. > > {Regarding the `When Fates Collides` crucifixion of Gabrielle, MD wrote: > > > > >i believe there was some discussion on one of the lists (i know i posted > > >somewhere) to the effect that i'd expect this gabrielle to be much more > > >frightened and resistant given her new "history." made sense. > > > > When reading this comment back then, I just mentally went along with this > > expectation too. But today, I had a flash of Madame Ceausescu's yeah--her. i knew there were some redundant consonants. i'm such a dunce. had to look 'em up. >reaction > > to her death sentence in 1989 - she waved her hand dismissively as if to > > say, "this is unreal, none of you can do this to ME." She continued to > > fail to process what was going on right up to her meeting with the firing > > squad. > > > > Perhaps Gabrielle's reaction could be interpreted as similar -- the WFC > > Gabrielle knows so little of politics and violence that she just stops > > understanding. Elena Ceausescu spent her adult life in denial of the suffering and death for >which she was responsible. Her last actions can be seen as pathologically and >pathetically habitual. Gabrielle's reactions are to a new reality, not to >anything to which she has become accustomed. It isn't so much that she doesn't >understand as it is that she doesn't know *how* to understand. i see it a bit differently than either of you. my interpretation is that, while she sort of can't believe it, it's mostly "o gods, no," legitimate fear of crucifixion (i'd be begging, pleading and sniveling) and unexpected death. she's not used to looking death in the eye. xena, as a soldier, would be but she'd never have been through a crucifixion before (to her knowledge). not many people get practice in that, now i think of it. in (and throughout much of xena) i see gabrielle (as i know i've said before) much more as the "youth" (the "beloved") in the platonic ideal espoused in the famous speech by socrates from plato's "symposium:" "And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger? The veriest coward would become an inspired hero, equal to the bravest, at such a time; Love would inspire him. That courage which, as Homer says, the god breathes into the souls of some heroes, Love of his own nature infuses into the lover." (see URL at bottom) >I'm trying to get at the difference between ignorance and innocence, but I >can't find a good sentence for it. In the one case, you have experience with >denial, and in the other, a lack of experience. i see it largely as a matter of not being trained or experienced. knowledge of what happens doesn't train one to tolerate painful or difficult experience but coping with pain does--up to a point. so the gabrielle of has not only seen bad stuff but has had it happen and she's learned some coping skills. also, i believe there is the fact that she will be strong out of love. xena is strong from experience--lots of experience--and b/c she's the hero. it's part of her definition. gabrielle started out spunky and became hardened and better skilled. in all that experience is not available so she's untempered as well as naive. even more important, while she is aware of loving xena, she isn't in "warrior" or "amazon" mode and is without the training xena (the lover) gave her--all that "greater good" stuff. remember that plato's ideal of lover and beloved was not that of two individuals who are sexually involved but rather of a man and a youth whose love is of the soul: platonic love. the man teaches the youth honor and through their love, they come to know the good. this may be why, altho i enjoy subtext, i'm not invested in a sexual relationship but in the platonic union of lover and beloved--to me, that's the "soulmate" concept. i doubt that this is what RT and RJ had in mind but who knows. md for the complete text of the symposium, see: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/symposium.html ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:56:27 -0600 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Oxygen/Xena vacation cruise Hi friends. There is a contest in Oxygen which some of you who don't get the show, or read the site, may not know about. A vacation cruise. This is the ad: We're in the midst of celebrating having Xena all to ourselves only on Oxygen (we just can't stop!). Enter to win 1 of 10 Caribbean adventure cruises in our Oxygen "Xena, Be A Warrior Princess" Sweepstakes, courtesy of Windjammer Barefoot Cruises, sponsored by Chevy. (don't use the above blue link. It doesn't go directly there - Lilli) The site for entering is: http://www.oxygen.com/Xena/ Then look for the "Sweepstakes" section on right side of page. Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V1 #26 *************************************