From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V1 #18 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, October 23 2001 Volume 01 : Number 018 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Re: <> ["H.J.J. Hewitt" > [KTL ] RE: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Lee Daley" > ["Cheryl Ande" > [Mirrordrum Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: <> > I just can't imagine where Marcus fits into her past. Marcus is a nice >enough for a professional thug but a bit boring for our post-Destiny >pre-Hercules Xena. I just can't see the Conqueror of Nations caddoling with >Marcus. Tho not at the time, that became my own feeling, too, as the series progressed. There was nothing special about the character Marcus other than that the actor who played the role was Black. At the time when this ep first showed, Xena's background hadn't been developed as it was later, so it didn't seem so implausible that this "nice enough professional thug" would be the Great Love of Her Life (remember, at this stage any subtext was still just in the minds of the wishful beholders). If TPTB felt the need to have the role played by a Black man (and they weren't above trying to get a bit of shock value out of anything they could), it's a pity it wasn't Tony Todd of "Lost Mariner". HE just \exuded/ charisma! Even without any plausible background to account for Marcus' attractiveness to Xena, he could have made it utterly believable. TEXena who thinks the actor playing Tyr in ANDROMEDA would have been even better ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:56:35 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> FIN, Who's Gurkhan, The Way, When Fates Collide Spoilers below On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Mirrordrum wrote: (with one arrow) > At 06:31 PM 10/13/2001 -0400, Cheryl Ande wrote: (with two arrows) > > >Well I guess I do see FIN as having a happy ending. Xena gets her redemption, > >Gabrielle comes of age, and the two have fullfilled their promise that "even > >in death" they would never be separated. I found the ending more powerful > >that a conventional happy ending. I thought it was a magnificent ending. One absolutely worthy of the series and the character. > > i agree with you at least in terms of the redemption and "more powerful > than a conventional happy ending" parts. Snip, snip for bandwidth. > > in thinking about FIN again in light of lucy's apology, i've wondered how > people would've reacted to the ep if she'd chosen to let gabrielle dump the > ashes in the water (i.e. if tptb had allowed it). there was much hue and > cry about the beheading but i wonder if that would have bothered people > much if xena and gab had sailed off into the sunset. xena's beheading was > only one of numerous beheadings in the series brought about directly or > indirectly by xena; the last one i think was gurkhan's. i don't remember a > lot of foaming and lathering about brutality in that ep which was one of > the most brutal, imo, of the series. Nope, there wasn't. And I think you're absolutely right. There wouldn't have been much of a peep if Xena had as usual killed the bad grrls and boys and walked off at the end of the ep. Xena was horrifically brutalized in Gurkhan--it's the first time she's hung up like a side of beef without having a cross to support her. In When Fates Collide, she's also viciously beaten, dragged behind a horse, shot with arrows, crucified and exposed before her enemies so she can see them taunting her as she dies in slow torment. I also find The Way horrific--that shot of Xena writhing in agony with her arms cut off as she lies dying--I really didn't need to see that. And I have said this about each of these eps from the time I first saw them. Among other brutalization of Xena ones. > > i certainly hope lucy realizes that not all fans are enamored of the > soul-mate concept, not all of us (even subtexters) felt betrayed nor > crushed, and many of us felt the ep was well done, albeit very painful. i > don't think we really have any idea how the 'verse was split in terms of > response to the ending b/c many of us who liked it, or at least weren't > "destroyed" by it, didn't need to go on at great length. > That's a very good point. I was away from home when FINS2 aired. And I got back to over 600 posts in my inbox about it. I read all of those over the course of a very few days, including the other 300 or so more that came in while I was working my way through the first bunch. Having read all the posts at once, I know that on the lists that I'm on, the breakdown between people who loved it (while still hating that Xena is dead) and those who loathed it totally was roughly even with slightly more people understanding and appreciating that ending than not. I'd estimate that the percentages would be something like 51-53% positive reactions to 47 to 49% negative. This of course only takes into account the online fans who actually post. And I was careful to look at who was posting also--if someone sent 10 posts saying they hated it, that didn't mean that ten people hated it. I found it real intriguing that When Fates Collide and FINS totally swept the Argo awards this year. Other eps barely got a mention in any category. If Fates didn't win, FINS did. And FINS was nominated in more categories than any other ep. > > i guess i think you're right, that gabrielle is > portrayed as sacrificing her life to follow xena. and xena's always > *apologizing* for it: i'm sorry i took you so far from your way and so > forth. well, surely there are real-life conflicts like this because we *do* > effect other people and we do give things up for other people. > I think this was clearly resolved in the cell scene in Ides Of March. When Xena again says, "I'm sorry for all the times I didn't treat you right." And Gabrielle answers, "You brought out the best in me. Before I met you, no one saw me for who I was. I felt...invisible. But you saw all the things that I could be. You *saved* me, Xena." Gabrielle knows what Xena's done for her, what Xena rescued her from. And what Xena gave her. (Here's where we all break into a couple of choruses of "R-E-S-P-E-C-T"!) > at the same time, if gabrielle is going to get herself together and make > something of her life then she's ultimately going to have to do it whether > she travels with xena or not and regardless of whether xena lives or not. > how she defines herself, what that "something" is, she may well choose to > define within the scope of her travels with xena. she may define herself > "vis-a-vis" the other, which, of course, is the traditional woman's or > subordinate's role. with xena dead, she could *still* chose to define > herself with regard to xena, carrying the chakram, using the pinch and > generally trying to be somebody she's not. I have never believed Gabrielle as a warrior. She just does not have a warrior's heart. Her reluctance to kill stemmed from who she was, from what she believed in. From the belief in the good of others that she carried in her own good heart. She was always courageous and lion-hearted in defending others, even in the early days when her intent to help was far outweighed by her abilities. But she threw herself into the battle anyway. Of course I'm one of those who believe she certainly did physically damage people ever since she first started using the staff. As a bud of mine says, "Subdural hemotoma anyone?" She didn't pull her punches with that staff. So at least now that she got the "Wizard's Pick 'Em Up And Be Totally Skillful Sais", the scripts do at least finally admit that she's taking people out. As Iferae has pointed out, she says in One Against An Army, "I accepted the consequences of our life together long ago." And I believe that she's referring not just to herself or to the possiblity of her losing Xena but also to the impact they have on those who "get in their way". She repeats the "I want to be like you" statement while in a fever, but when she first said that she had no idea what being like Xena meant. But she learned. > > personally, i prefer to wish that she would be able to separate herself > from that relationship--honoring it and yet letting it go. > I think she'd be a lot more interesting and believable if they hadn't forced her into becoming a warrior. While being very much in the "little woman" mode with her nurturing and negotiations side, there is still honor in that. And we still need people like that among us. I would much rather they had written stories that showed more respect for her position and beliefs and not changed them so much instead of making her into a pale imitation of Xena (in all ways), one who could never catch up to Xena while she lived. > > > Her love reaches out beyond the grave and she will always be a real > >presence in her life. For Gabrielle a Xena redeemed and happy is what she > >always wanted and now she has true a soulmate. One not burdened by guilt but > >one that is truly happy. Yes, I think this truly validates Gabrielle's love for Xena. That she will let her find peace and not hold her back from that for her own reasons. > > ayup. grin. but ya gotta be careful what you wish for 'cause you just might > get it. xena's was the easy part: she made the decision and freed herself. > the hard part would be gabrielle's: living with xena's decision and her own > compliance with it. don't you know she's just got to be kicking herself all > the way to tartarus and back for *finally* listening? > BWAHAHAHAHH! How true...the ONE time she listen's...heh. > md--happy to be talking about xena on chak. . ., er chakram-refugees KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:26:52 -0400 From: "Lee Daley" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] <> I feel the urge to respond, pardon the lack of snippage > -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Cheryl Ande > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 9:54 PM > > Lots themes from all seasons here. > > @ > @ > @ > @ > bd wrote: > > "I think how a person reacts to FIN determines whether they view > the ending as > happy or not. " > > This is of course true enough. I also think it depends on how the viewer > reacted to to Xena as a series determines whether that person saw > the ending > as happy or not. I believe that those who were unhappy with the ending > probably saw Xena as primarially a love story between Xena and > Gabrielle. I > think those who may have happier with the ending saw Xena more as a hero's > journey - story of two people seeking their own place in the world. Well as I've always said, the contract with me was "telling me a good yarn". As a series, it was a lovestory, it was two shero's journey, it was a vehicle to push the medium's envelope, and it was also a commercial enterprise that needed to produce episodes on time. Sometimes it was more of one and less of another, but it never failed the basic contract (came damn close a few times). As we look back on it, it will take on more significance than the authors might have intended, then again Shakespeare could voice the same complaint. > > I feel uncomfortable assuming what other's thought so I'll just > talk about my > own feelings about the series. I am a subtexter - I believe Xena and > Gabrielle were in love. I, however, do not believe that was the > main theme of the series. The relationship, however you define it, was not the "theme". But it was 'there', as much as the sun is 'there' at dawn. There was a "love" there, how it was manifested really didn't matter. > I believed we were always moving towards Xena's > redemption and I > believed that Xena was a doomed character; that she could only > find peace in > sacrifice and death. TPTB have shown us that they were aware of the history of their media, why wouldn't they adopt the "Greek Tragedy" approach, they borrowed from everything else that followed, why not that. As the series progressed she found her path to > redemption by accepting the path of the greater good. This she learned > through her relationship with Gabrielle. > > She loves Gabrielle and when they first meet she places the girl on a > pedestal. And why not? She is lost. And she latches onto the first anchor that comes her way. > She becomes her protector and places all her trust in > her. Then > bad things happen. Xena can't protect her from evil. Gabrielle kills, is > raped, betrays Xena, lies to her, and those lies lead to the > death of her son. > This almost destroys Xena The problem with tying your "self" to anything is that sooner or later you will find that your "Goddess" has 'feet of clay' > but then Xena learns to forgive. She forgives > Gabrielle and more importantly Xena is also forgiven. She learns > that those > who love can forgive and be forgiven. She learns that her anchor is a living, breathing, growing person. Which is so much better than an ideal. She is always moving towards redemption through sacrifice. That journey > culminates in her final sacrifice to save the 40,000 - it is immaterial > whether we believe they deserve the sacrifice or not. Xena, > herself, deserved > the sacrifice. She deserved the peace and redemption the > sacrifice gave her. And don't forget that she did manage to go out with a sword in her hand, which is considtent with her warrior ethos. > > Gabrielle also was on a journey. When we first meet her she is a child - > naive and a bit full of herself. She kills, she is raped, consummed by jealously she > betrays her > friend, she bears a monster who kills the son of the persons she > loves most in > the world and that person tries to kill her. She was having a REALLY BAD YEAR In the Bitter Suit she too > forgives and is forgiven but that is not the life changing > experience for her > as it is for Xena. It's easy for Gabrielle to forgive. > Gabrielle's faith in > herself in seriously shaken. > > For the next season and a half we watch as Gabrielle tries to > find her path. > At that moment everything changes for Gabrielle not because she becomes a > killing machine but because she now puts some one elses welfare > above her own > concerns. I'll disagree a bit on your otherwise excellent analysis. The Gabspaz was all emotion, a reaction to a traumatic event. Although it was important, and she probably scared herself with what she was capable of. I think the real sea change occured in "When in Rome", when she kills (indirectly but kills nonetheless) in the cold hard light of day with premeditation. This is when the real change occured. Which later allows her to 'pick up Xena's mantle' (or Chakram). > The greater good > for her is not the 40,000 but Xena's redemption. Her sacrifice > now allows her > to become the hero because she now serves the greater good. > > So yes I see the series as more of a hero's journey than a love story. Just to throw a little spice into the discussion (BAM!!!). "Bitter Suite" is heavily influenced by the Tarot, which is itself a journey of growth. Did TPTB intend this? I highly doubt it. I prefer to think that they were trying to tell a 'good yarn' and the characters 'grew on them'. In remaining true to their characters and the ethos of telling a good tale, they were forced, much as in a Greek Tragedy, along this path. (How's that for cosmic significance?) > I think of the love story as a bonus. And it is also a love story! But then again any long term love is a journey. I think this also suprised TPTB and grew on them. The "type" of love still remains a matter of opinion, but the existence of the love is beyond question. >In the end the heros get their reward > peace for one and life of service for the other - that's what they always > wanted. They also found true love along the way - a love so > strong that it > transcends death and will bind their souls together for eternity. > So yeah I > see a happy ending here. I have to agree with you. I saw it as a happy ending, many not the happy ending of "The pirate Movie" but a happy one nonetheless. Although the question is, is it is a reward or a punishment. Hopefully Xena is at peace, but Gabrielle's new task, may well be the continuation of the 'hero's journey'. It was also one Hades of a way to leave an opening for either a spin-off or a Movie or two.... or three........ I can see the opening of that sequel very clearly. LeeD; Warrior Jester > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:17:32 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Daley" To: "Cheryl Ande" ; Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 7:26 AM Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] <> > I'll disagree a bit on your otherwise excellent analysis. The Gabspaz was all emotion, a reaction to a traumatic event. Although it was important, and she probably scared herself with what she was capable of. I think the real sea change occured in "When in Rome", when she kills (indirectly but kills nonetheless) in the cold hard light of day with premeditation. This is when the real change occured. Which later allows her to 'pick up Xena's mantle' > (or Chakram). Oh I do believe the Gabspaz was a very emotional reaction but I think there was a concious decision to defend Xena. Once that decision is made Gabrielle goes berzurker on us (perhaps it was all that white powder she was blowing at people god only knows what that stuff was). Anyway you make a very good point about When In Rome. That is a very important point in Gabrielle's life. It is the first time Gabrielle decides to take a life deliberately and in the cold light of day. She now realizes she has changed completely from the idealist she once was and she doesn't like it one bit. It's no wonder she spends the next year trying so desparately trying to recapture that idealism. I think she knows she can't that's why all her attempts from Najara to Aiden to pascifism ring so false because she knows, in her heart, she can never be that innocent idealist again. > Did TPTB intend this? I highly doubt it. I prefer to think that they were > trying to tell a 'good yarn' and the characters 'grew on them'. In > remaining true to their characters and the ethos of telling a good tale, > they were forced, much as in a Greek Tragedy, along this path. (How's that> for cosmic significance?) Nah I don't think TPTB intented to create two really complex females heroes who fall in love and make fanatics out perfectly sane middle class women who write long analytic reviews of their stuff. I think they wanted to write a great yarn and make money - like Shakespear. I think what happened is that TPTB feel in love (in one case literally) with their creations and wanted to take them on an interesting journey. They had the shere dumb luck of casting two perfect actresses and producing a show that somehow spoke to a segment of the audience that was just waiting for Xena and Gabrielle to ride into their lives. > It was also one Hades of a way to leave an opening for either a spin-off or > a Movie or two.... or three........ I can see the opening of that sequel > very clearly. Oh we can only hope. I'd love to see Gabrielle as a hero it would be so interesting. Well anyway haveing just watched The Xena Scrolls again it is quit obvious that somewhere along the line the 40,000 got along very nicely without Xena since she imprisioned Ares in that tomb or perhaps Gabrielle did the deed! > > LeeD; Warrior Jester > > > > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:33:19 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> FIN spoilers / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / At 01:56 AM 10/22/2001 -0800, KTL wrote: >On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Mirrordrum wrote: (with one arrow) > > At 06:31 PM 10/13/2001 -0400, Cheryl Ande wrote: (with two arrows) okay, so i can only write with one arrow. i need one hand to keep my scroll from rolling. . .uh. . .screen from scrolling up. are you making an odious comparison between me and cheryl? huh? huh? what can i say? not everybody can write with two arrows. somebody's got to be a role-player. actually i snipped cheryl's bit and this was mine. > > in thinking about FIN again in light of lucy's apology, i've wondered how > > people would've reacted to the ep if she'd chosen to let gabrielle dump the > > ashes in the water (i.e. if tptb had allowed it). there was much hue and > > cry about the beheading but i wonder if that would have bothered people > > much if xena and gab had sailed off into the sunset. >Nope, there wasn't. And I think you're absolutely right. well *that's* new. heh! > There wouldn't >have been much of a peep if Xena had as usual killed the bad grrls and >boys and walked off at the end of the ep. > i > > don't think we really have any idea how the 'verse was split in terms of > > response to the ending b/c many of us who liked it, or at least weren't > > "destroyed" by it, didn't need to go on at great length. > > > >That's a very good point. >Having read >all the posts at once, I know that on the lists that I'm on, the breakdown >between people who loved it (while still hating that Xena is dead) and >those who loathed it totally was roughly even with slightly more people >understanding and appreciating that ending than not. I'd estimate >that the percentages would be something like 51-53% positive reactions to >47 to 49% negative. This of course only takes into account the online >fans who actually post. and we also don't know the effect their reaction may have had on willingness to post. some people may have been afraid that liking, or not liking, the ep would cause them to be flamed. my impression was that more flames were thrown at people who did like it than at those who didn't, but that's clearly a biased view since i liked or, well, i respected it, thought it was amazing and loved parts of it. also, there may have been those who were so distressed by it that they simply left the 'verse in a state of disaffection and never commented at all. the point to all this for me is that i did not see any media coverage of fan reaction that didn't, to my mind, distort reaction toward the negative. well, stands to reason, of course. "thousands of fans think ending to xena's run was excellent" doth not a good article make. >I found it real intriguing that When Fates Collide and FINS totally swept >the Argo awards this year. Other eps barely got a mention in any >category. If Fates didn't win, FINS did. And FINS was nominated in more >categories than any other ep. ayup. again, may be skewed b/c of disaffected fans deciding not to vote at all. we simply have no way of knowing and so can't really characterize "the fans' responses" with any degree of certainty, validity or even reliability (the last since people's opinions may have changed over time). i just wish, in the event that it matters to those involved, that the media presentation hadn't been so lopsided. i had a sort of "not in my name" response but it never occurred to me that tptb would give a fig so i didn't bother to write letters. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:26:34 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org Subject: [none] [128.169.76.123]) by smoe.org (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with ESMTP id f9N2sHv1009298 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer.utk.edu (nchm02a65.rmt.utk.edu [128.169.249.65]) by aspirin.dii.utk.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9N2s4F07466; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:54:05 -0400 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.2.20011022222916.00a57a60@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: jbuckner/pop.utk.edu@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:55:32 -0400 To: KTL From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> Cc: chakram-refugees@smoe.org In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.1.4.2.20011013215654.00a6fec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org Precedence: bulk At 01:56 AM 10/22/2001 -0800, KTL wrote: spoilers for >FIN, Who's Gurkhan, The Way, When Fates Collide Spoilers below adding <10 little warlords>, , , and reference to ring arc character. >mirrordrum wrote (in response to cheryl): > > i guess i think you're right, that gabrielle is > > portrayed as sacrificing her life to follow xena. and xena's always > > *apologizing* for it: i'm sorry i took you so far from your way and so > > forth. well, surely there are real-life conflicts like this because we *do* > > effect other people and we do give things up for other people. > > > >I think this was clearly resolved in the cell scene in Ides Of March. well we did have one final "i made you leave the way of love" line from xena but gab does say it was her choice and xena accepts it and moves on to a different apology and we have the birth of the way of friendship. for gabrielle to be allowed the responsibility of a choice and for xena to stop claiming responsibility for gabrielle's actions is really what i was wanting all along. hey, why didn't i realize that had happened? i guess i was still hoist on the extended explosion of my season 4 petard. hmmmm. alright, i'll change my mind. > > at the same time, if gabrielle is going to get herself together and make > > something of her life then she's ultimately going to have to do it whether > > she travels with xena or not and regardless of whether xena lives or not. > > how she defines herself, what that "something" is, she may well choose to > > define within the scope of her travels with xena. she may define herself > > "vis-a-vis" the other, which, of course, is the traditional woman's or > > subordinate's role. with xena dead, she could *still* chose to define > > herself with regard to xena, carrying the chakram, using the pinch and > > generally trying to be somebody she's not. > > >I have never believed Gabrielle as a warrior. slightly different point from mine which was supposedly about self-definition but did segue into my concurring belief that the way of the warrior (and the chakram and pinch) were xena's, not gabrielle's. so i'll allow it. chortle. > She just does not have a >warrior's heart. that's an interesting way of putting it. i'm thinking here of jack kornfield's book on buddhism called "a path with heart" and of the tibetan spiritual "way of the warrior" that's one of facing the self, etc. which is actually a lot of what xena's about. it all depends on how one views warriorness and its connection to the heart. i think that's one of the reasons tptb never touched buddhism, though they skirted it closely. it's a much more difficult spiritual practice to fit into this kind of show than shintoism, taoism, elianism and the like. > Her reluctance to kill stemmed from who she was, which of course raises the interesting question of who one is essentially. like grinhilda saying that the person who turned her into the monster wasn't the real xena, well, who was she then? > from >what she believed in. From the belief in the good of others that she >carried in her own good heart. and of course over and over they have made the point with varying degrees of believability that ya can't have one without the other: the warrior and the peacemaker are each essential. of course, they usually have it that without war, anger, or fighting everybody in the world gets respectively angrier , inert or loveless --well, i realize in YAT the world got loveless w/out 'dite. but the point was still made by grinhilda that both love and anger are necessary for zest, having both is what makes the nordic people who they are. well she said it, i didn't. > She was always courageous and lion-hearted >in defending others, even in the early days when her intent to help was >far outweighed by her abilities. reach exceeding grasp and all that. and listen at you extolling gab's virtues. awwwww. > But she threw herself into the battle >anyway. Of course I'm one of those who believe she certainly did >physically damage people ever since she first started using the staff. As >a bud of mine says, "Subdural hemotoma anyone?" yeah but she didn't *kill* anybody and she never drew blood. or not much blood anyway. you're allowed a whack or two in a good cause. > She didn't pull her >punches with that staff. So at least now that she got the "Wizard's Pick >'Em Up And Be Totally Skillful Sais", the scripts do at least finally >admit that she's taking people out. but she still frets about it. at least they left the angst in--the stone at the bottom of the lake that changes the lake forever. >As Iferae has pointed out, she says in One Against An Army, "I accepted >the consequences of our life together long ago." And I believe that she's >referring not just to herself or to the possiblity of her losing Xena but >also to the impact they have on those who "get in their way". She repeats >the "I want to be like you" statement while in a fever, but when she first >said that she had no idea what being like Xena meant. But she learned. i don't think she *really* got it until . now i know you hate , but one of the reasons i liked it (well i haven't seen it for awhile, who knows what i'd think now) was that it cemented very clearly the fact that gabrielle is not cut out to be a war leader and is one of those people who shouldn't try and i thought it was the first time she REALLY understood about xena's life from the inside. except that of course she failed miserably whereas xena at least always won. well, after she became the destroyer of nations anyway. gabrielle's also one of those people, like some of the US's commissioned officers who get stuck in positions of responsibility just b/c of their rank. happened in WWII and vietnam and probably korea and ended up costing lives and getting them fragged (correct me if i'm wrong LeeD). well, except they volunteered for the profession. that's it, xena's a professional warrior and gabrielle's not. and, like other people who profess to be nonviolent or who aren't warrior types, gabrielle can get caught up in it. that happened in but it was very different (imo). i think even in while she feels guilt, she's still following xena's orders, doing what she's told, xena takes the responsibility and gabrielle doesn't actually engage in the murder. close but not the same. and i do agree the basic premise of made no sense so you'll get no argument from me there. xena, otoh, knows the whole thing. she's been on both sides, she has the skills, knowledge, ability and presence. yet even armies need medics, chaplains (or priests, whatever) and i don't think it hurts for armies to have people who really don't want to fight and who are willing to be very strong in those convictions. of course so much of it is culturally bound. put this in the greek pelopennesian war era and you've the whole theban band thing and the bonds of warrior lovers and whatnot. even socrates and plato were soldiers and their "best" were certainly not pacifistic. spiritual, looking for harmony, but committed to honor in battle. > > personally, i prefer to wish that she would be able to separate herself > > from that relationship--honoring it and yet letting it go. > > > >I think she'd be a lot more interesting and believable if they hadn't >forced her into becoming a warrior. hah! don't give me that "a lot more interesting and believable," you hardly even notice she's there. however, this is an interesting subject for a separate post--well, it would interest me anyway. ;-> > While being very much in the "little >woman" mode with her nurturing and negotiations side, there is still honor >in that. And we still need people like that among us. we absolutely do, both men and women. i think you make an interesting point that i frequently lose site of, namely that there is great dignity in living a good life, as whatever his name (the guy with the kids) did in . the way the show's set up, the respect naturally goes to the warriors and not the people who, irl, hold the fabric of things together while the warriors are out warring. there are a few exceptions but not many. the really interesting women (people) are almost all warriors. even lao ma, m'lila and naiyima, who have peaceful and/or healing skills, may resort to deadly ways. this isn't a complaint about the show--it's just a comment. not many people (including moiself) would have watched a show entitled "xena: kindly princess." > I would much >rather they had written stories that showed more respect for her position >and beliefs and not changed them so much instead of making her into a pale >imitation of Xena (in all ways), one who could never catch up to Xena >while she lived. well these are news! i am dying to know what stories you envision that would accord gabrielle respect. really. i am. i can't really envision what her role would have been that would've fit into the premise of the show, let her protect xena during the pregnancy and not make her look like a total wimp. > don't you know she's just got to be kicking herself all > > the way to tartarus and back for *finally* listening? > > > >BWAHAHAHAHH! How true...the ONE time she listen's...heh. REALly! and of course if she hadn't listened and had dumped the ashes then xena would have been trapped and would have 40,000 souls to add to her list of "oh the pain the pain" sins. think about it. if gabrielle had dumped the ashes, it would have been just awful. you know it's sort of like having to make the decision in contemporary life to request a no-code or "do not resuscitate" (DNR) on someone you love. either decision is going to be painful and the decision is ideally based on what you believe the person wants, if she or he can't make that call. the difference, of course, is that xena would have come back, but she'd have come back against her wishes with the same old burden she'd been carrying for all those years. this totally ignores the issue of whether or not tptb should have introduced the new 40,000 souls responsibility and the last little gimmick about having to stay dead to avenge them and all of that. i'm just going with the story line as is. very interesting discussion. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. 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