From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V1 #17 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, October 22 2001 Volume 01 : Number 017 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [chakram-refugees] <> ["~* Megaera *~" > ["~* Megaera *~" > [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [Richan@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" > ["Cheryl Ande" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] <> >From Cheryl Ande: ><<<redemption, Gabrielle comes of age, and the two have fullfilled their >promise that "even in death" they would never be separated. I found the >ending more powerful that a conventional happy ending.>>>> >From: "bookdaft" I think how a person reacts to FIN determines whether they >view the ending as happy or not. From your post, it is clear that you were >the kind of fan Rob and RJ wrote the finale for and had hoped to reach. I >do believe that your view of FIN is precisely what they were striving for. >It is nice that you can see the ending as you do. > >I, on the other hand, see the ending ranging from bittersweet to downright >painful. I won't detail all my reasons here, because I am working on >another post that incorporates Lucy's recent comments with some of my >thinking regarding FIN and the series. However, I will say my hat is off >to all of you who like FIN's ending. You certainly won't be bothered with >deciding whether you should ever watch the episode again or not. It should >make your life much more agreeable, I should think, and I mean no >disrespect when I say this. FIN is a handsome piece of work and was >impressive to watch. > >bd For me the ending was certainly painful. I do see Cheryl your views near equal as bd sees them, that perhaps that is what RT, LL and all involved in making FIN looked for or hoped for in fans. I don't understand though, how they could not have even thought of some people feeling a sense of pain upon Xena's death. I never saw FIN as coming full circle. I didn't see Gab as learning anything that she sought from the first ep, simply bc she was so young and her ideas were so different. Back then Gab saw Xena saving her and her village. She seemed to want to be like Xena as a strong warrior who saved people; she never saw the evil Xena. So in the end Gab was alone, without Xena, lonely and lost. Yes FIN is a good ep but no, the ending to me was a disservice to Xena. Taking her away like they did only left me with an empty feeling. Where was the happiness? Where was the fulfillment of the greater good? Her loss was profound. Now there seems to be no way to redeam that. ~Meg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:36:07 +0000 From: "~* Megaera *~" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> >From: Mirrordrum >To: IfeRae@aol.com, chakram-refugees@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:04:35 -0400 > .... >but to return to xena: do i think the events of a t & a, camp tv series, no >matter how extraordinary, can truly be equated to a >disaster or a real war? >of course not. but the one does draw on the other. and the show has >affected my life. not like the attack and not like its aftermath, but >sufficient unto the medium. > >so i have trouble watching the ending, especially now, because it's the >bloody end of a fantasy and because the end of that fantasy so closely >foreshadowed the bloody end of another. that doesn't make it a betrayal. it >just makes it painful. they aren't the same thing. > >md I would agree that Xena is not like the recent tradgedy. In a sense, it makes me think about well, what if she were real. However, in other eps Xena has come back to life. That is part of the fantasy of the show, that she can come back and continue the fight for good. When that ended, that was taken away. That is in a sense another reason it bothers me. Just that final piece where she is gone. The fantasy is over and reality sinks painfully back in. Heros do die and never return. Right now I don't want to think about that, not in a fantasy show. I want to think that heros will return and continue their fight. I want to believe that Xena can always return. Now that that is over, it's just empty. I haven't watched FIN again yet, but I have been watching previous eps, trying not to think of FIN, but thinking only of those eps. It seems silly for me to be like this, but I didn't expect my hero to really be gone. I knew the ending beforehand, but I still hoped it was a lie. But it wasn't. ~Meg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:33:12 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 10/20/2001 2:03:34 PM Central Daylight Time, jbuckner@utk.edu writes: > this was something i was thinking and hadn't posted yet. i find it a > difficult episode to watch (i saw both together so i think of both as one > episode). now as i watch reruns of other episodes, particularly happy ones, > i periodically have a sense of. . .mmm, not foreboding, but an awareness of > the transitoriness of all things. due to my experience, this has been an > almost life-long awareness. i don't think i've ever had it conveyed so > strongly and with such personal resonance by any visual medium. i've read > books that have touched this, but nothing fictional that has hit so close > to home.>> Yes! I don't know how much age (or a huge range of experiences) has to do with my response, but my immersion in XWP for six years was like vicariously recapturing the excitement of my own younger days -- the "first-time" experiences, the discoveries, the huge angst or joy that comes from something new that you're not prepared for, the self-awareness of strengths and fears, the maturation point where you realize that you can survive almost anything (because you have), forgive "big betrayals" that now mean nothing compared to years of friendship, move on from deaths and "failures" because you have so much more to be thankful for. Everything seemed so much more "permanent" when I was younger. I think I was caught up in that watching X&G, confident that they would just keep going, even tho they'd lived more in their brief time than most of us would in a 100 years. So, like you, that is the nostalgia I have watching older eps -- being reminded of the transitority aspect that I'd put aside in watching those two vibrant, timeless characters. > > so i have trouble watching the ending, especially now, because it's the > bloody end of a fantasy and because the end of that fantasy so closely > foreshadowed the bloody end of another. that doesn't make it a betrayal. it > just makes it painful. they aren't the same thing. > Yes, again. The "bloody end of a fantasy." Except that, when those who create a fantasy are perceived as killing it, I think that's where the sense of betrayal comes from. I don't feel that way, simply because I could separate what the creators did from what I then spun from that. I recognize that not everyone relates to fantasy -- or to "real life," for that matter -- as I do, and that even this has changed during different stages of my life. I can still feel much of the XWP fantasy because it lives in my imagination and through actual aspects of my own experiences. But I sympathize with and understand those who felt that particular confluence of art and life in a way that betrayed both. Anyway, thanks for your ruminations. Made some things I was feeling a lot cleare. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:33:29 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 10/20/2001 8:46:47 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > So yes I see the series as more of a hero's journey than a love story. I > think of the love story as a bonus. In the end the heros get their reward > peace for one and life of service for the other - that's what they always > wanted. They also found true love along the way - a love so strong that it > transcends death and will bind their souls together for eternity. So yeah I > see a happy ending here. > > Good lord, what a fantastic overiview of the whole series! And not just because it's pretty much the way I saw it too. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:46:45 EDT From: Richan@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> Thelonius writes: << I thought the ending was entirely fitting for the series, but I wouldn't call it a 'happy ending' in the conventional sense. (I hasten to add, I know of no rule that says a story has to have a happy ending, btw). >> I kind of like Gabrielle's rule of thumb--"sap up the wrap up" from ATHENS CITY ACADEMY OF PERFORMING BARDS. Still, while I generally think of "sap" as happy, I suppose it's arguable as to to whether it has to be positive or negative. Richan ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:48:08 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> @ Themes from all seasons @ @ @ @ Well I'm still keeping to my plan more or less. I watched The Path Not Taken. It's a better episode than I remember but it presents as interesting problem for me. After seeing evil Xena in the Debt, the Ring arc, Past Imperfect etc., I just can't imagine where Marcus fits into her past. Marcus is a nice enough for a professional thug but a bit boring for our post-Destiny pre-Hercules Xena. I just can't see the Conqueror of Nations caddoling with Marcus. The Reckoning is I guess a cannon episode. We get introduced, as does Xena, to Ares. The sparks do fly between the two from the very beginning. It is also the beginning of recurring theme of Xena accepting punishment for crimes she didn't commit in order to atone for her past crimes. Also in this episode we see Gabrielle emerging from her tag-along status. She is Xena's most persistent champion even in the face of Xena's uncontrolled rage and for the first time we see Gabrielle's presence influence Xena's actions. There's a nice light hearted moment at the end of the episode where Gabrielle socks Xena in payback which I think was a bit of business thought up by Lucy & Renee which I think shows the growing playfulness between the characters. I also watched the Xena Scrolls just because I like it. I love Janice and Mel. A seminal Xena episode which starts us down the road which eventual leads to the idea of Xena and Gabrielle as soul mates and reincarnation. It also I assume starts off the whole uber movement in fan fiction. BTW there just aren't enough Janice & Mel stories (I thought I would just throw that out there). CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:58:20 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thelonius" To: "Cheryl Ande" Cc: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> > > Equally, I wouldn't use the word 'happy' to convey my feelings about the > ending - impressed, in fact almost overpowered at first; and I am content > with the ending. 'Happy' doesn't quite convey the shade of meaning, I think. > > (Rest of interesting post - which I agree with btw - respectfully snipped). > > Thelonius > You probably right happy ending is probably a misnomer. I felt the end was powerful and appropriate and frankly I could have thought of a lot worst endings such as Xena and Gabrielle both dead at the end. I think that would have ruined the series for me - it would have been so nihilistic. Anyway I can't say I wasn't sad at the end of FIN not because Xena is a lively ghost but because the series is over and all we have left is a bunch of tapes and fond memeories. On a lighter note we do have good list friends to keep our spirits up and talk Xena to our hearts content. I hope we are still here when I get to the sixth season tapes ;o. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V1 #17 *************************************