From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V1 #16 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, October 21 2001 Volume 01 : Number 016 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [Mirrordrum ] [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" > [Thelonius ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:13:25 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 10/19/2001 9:17:40 PM Central Daylight Time, bookdaft@voyager.net writes: > From Cheryl Ande: > > <<< redemption, > Gabrielle comes of age, and the two have fullfilled their promise that "even > in death" they would never be separated. I found the ending more powerful > that a conventional happy ending.>>>> > > I think how a person reacts to FIN determines whether they view the ending > as happy or not. From your post, it is clear that you were the kind of fan > Rob and RJ wrote the finale for and had hoped to reach. I do believe that > your view of FIN is precisely what they were striving for. It is nice that > you can see the ending as you do. > > I, on the other hand, see the ending ranging from bittersweet to downright > painful. I saw it a lot like Cheryl, but like you, also found it bittersweet and downright painful. Unlike you, I can watch it over and over, still feeling both inspired by the philosophical and production aspects, but sad at seeing the end of both the show and the characters as I'd come to love them. It's a lot like mixed emotions I've had at the death of real-life friends -- inspired by the way they accepted with grace that their time had come, richer because of what they taught me about courage during painful times, yet still sad that I'd never be able to experience them again in the way I was accustomed. The difference is, I'm stunned that I would respond like that to fantasy people on a TV show. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:04:35 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> At 02:13 PM 10/20/2001 -0400, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 10/19/2001 9:17:40 PM Central Daylight Time, >bookdaft@voyager.net writes: > > > From Cheryl Ande: > > > > <<< > > I think how a person reacts to FIN determines whether they view the ending > > as happy or not. From your post, it is clear that you were the kind > of fan > > Rob and RJ wrote the finale for and had hoped to reach. I do believe that > > your view of FIN is precisely what they were striving for. It is nice > that > > you can see the ending as you do. > > > > I, on the other hand, see the ending ranging from bittersweet to downright > > painful. > > >I saw it a lot like Cheryl, but like you, also found it bittersweet and >downright painful. yes, painful and beautiful and, stepping back and thinking about production, overwhelmingly dedicated. > Unlike you, I can watch it over and over, still feeling >both inspired by the philosophical and production aspects, but sad at seeing >the end of both the show and the characters as I'd come to love them. It's a >lot like mixed emotions I've had at the death of real-life friends -- >inspired by the way they accepted with grace that their time had come, richer >because of what they taught me about courage during painful times, yet still >sad that I'd never be able to experience them again in the way I was >accustomed. this was something i was thinking and hadn't posted yet. i find it a difficult episode to watch (i saw both together so i think of both as one episode). now as i watch reruns of other episodes, particularly happy ones, i periodically have a sense of. . .mmm, not foreboding, but an awareness of the transitoriness of all things. due to my experience, this has been an almost life-long awareness. i don't think i've ever had it conveyed so strongly and with such personal resonance by any visual medium. i've read books that have touched this, but nothing fictional that has hit so close to home. i approach, or attempt to approach, my life (not always successfully) with the awareness that all of it is precious and fleeting. it's one thing that makes me strive for non-violence (don't ask me why i love xena--it's a conundrum). so when i watch earlier eps where there is affection between the two or closeness, companionship, silliness, i now have a sort of frisson of awareness: it's temporary and that is true of me and my partner too. it doesn't make me grasp more tightly but rather less--to "kiss the joy as it flies." and the sorrow too. a number of people seem to have felt that this very finalizing, this invoking of reality--if anything in xena can be said to invoke reality--is a betrayal of one thing or another. i would say, have said, that on the contrary, it's an affirmation and a reminder to us to celebrate what we have while we have it. i've caught a number of small pieces on CNN commemorating people who died in WTC on 911. the few i've seen without exception show photos of these people or include descriptions of them laughing, rejoicing, goofing off, being relatively youthful. the one i saw last night was of a 35 year old firefighter of whom his brother (i think his brother--maybe his friend) said "he died the way he wanted to." one of the last photographs shown was of him helping an older woman (maybe my age) away from a fire scene. he was smiling. and then he died in a very horrible way. do we tear up the reminders, the "reruns" of his life, the scenes of rejoicing because he was crushed in rubble? does the manner of his death make his death or his life meaningless, negate who he was, or the joy he had in his life and his work? absolutely not. well, it's never as simple as i'm making it sound. when people die, we tend to glorify them. and the living are always aghast at the frailty of the bodies we inhabit and by what can happen to them. so the images are perhaps understandably skewed. but so what? but to return to xena: do i think the events of a t & a, camp tv series, no matter how extraordinary, can truly be equated to a disaster or a real war? of course not. but the one does draw on the other. and the show has affected my life. not like the attack and not like its aftermath, but sufficient unto the medium. so i have trouble watching the ending, especially now, because it's the bloody end of a fantasy and because the end of that fantasy so closely foreshadowed the bloody end of another. that doesn't make it a betrayal. it just makes it painful. they aren't the same thing. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:00:02 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] FIN Happy Ending-Some Meanderings (long) This is a long post about Friends in Need, (FIN) the final episode. And also refers to a few other shows in the past such as The Price. Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers DEf: (Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary) REVENGE (noun) - an act or instance of retaliating in order to get even REVENGE (verb) - to inflict injury in return for Meanings: REPRISAL, RETRIBUTION, RETALIATION, VINDICTIVENESS, MALEVOLENCE Bookdaft spoke about FIN not being the best of endings for Xena. Although I know she is going to say more, in another post, let me put in a few thoughts of my own. I did not respond, initially to posts on the web when the FIN finale first showed. Last June. I was angry. But despite the sorrow I still have that the season is over, it still feels like SOMETHING is going on out there in the "Xenaverse", Universe as we know it. And it has to do with us. Is it some big mystical thing? I do not know. But it does have something to do with being powerful and female. This is a bit of rambling. I feel like the person I am looking for the power from is me. It helped, and still helps, watching Lucy Lawless play Xena. The power in the show and from LL as Xena, and later ROC as Gabrielle, was incredible. But from my perspective, as a woman, the issue is whether I have the power I insisted on watching on TV? I am, indeed, mourning for myself, my claim of power that I did not know how to find. When I was growing up, the shows I watched were religious programming, humor (lot of comedy shows in the 50's), black and white TV, Shari Lewis and Lambchop (yes, she was around in an earlier incarnation). There was alot of violence going on. I was taught that the holocaust was over, and Jews died, not necessarily being able to defend themselves. Then theCold War with Russia being the enemy, and, oh, do we get to draft people if we are in a war. Do I want to fight? I am female. Then there was the 6 Day War against Israel, in which I and thousands of young people in school were sitting there glued to the radio, ignoring any teaching/coursework we were trying to do in high school. I wanted to fight. I could not. I was too scared. I wanted to go to Israel and help. Oh, and all the female issues of rape, sexual abuse, incest physical violence. Meanwhile, the jokes and cartoons showed lots of action, perhaps a certain amount of humor with some violence intending to show something about power, or just being able to laugh when the Roadrunner dropped one more load of rocks on the Wiley Coyote to stop him. This is the humor I was raised with. Xena had this kind of humor, of power. Xena wings her Chakram off of 10 different surfaces and it flies into the face of the opponent and knocks him/her off balance, kills them (Furies this season), or otherwise gets control back. So Xena's humor was (and I see it as some kind of humor) was indeed something I was familiar with. Then, Blood. Not fun. The show became more bloody, possibly as the creators, who have tended towards a certain amount of bloodshed in their well-made movies, showed more and more as the show progressed through the 5th and 6th Seasons. The blood-letting scenes shown in the 4th season The Convert was an example of what had gone overboard for me. Was, yet, for me, an exact representation about how I felt about others in the world I wanted to kill. For the right reasons of course, doing the bad guy in. Oh well. So, what do I FEEL about this? That my feelings about the bad guy getting it are being done elsewhere out in the universe? That my best friends are sometimes what feels like my worst enemies? That (whoops, can I say this?) sometimes - the fear I have and the killing I want to do - i want Xena to do. I don't have to, I don't want to. I am GLAD the show is over so I don't have to feel these confliects anymore. Yet, along with that which Xena showed, I have lots of rage. But it's not over, not in my head. Not watching Lucy Lawless on Entertainment Tonight or seeing her on previews of X-Files. Or watching again while Xena and Gabrielle sling it to them on re-runs or tapes I have bought. So, you see, it is through this conflict I have been watching the show. And have had this conflict since the day I was born, you see, that to be a woman you give up having these choices of how you really want to respond to people or situations. Do we fight? Do we do self-defense? Do we take a sword and protect ourselves, or a pistol, or something else if we are raped by someone? Do we seek revenge? Do we talk? Do we have the skills or power to do any of this? I am hearing/seeing/learning about people going out and fighting for their countries. So? Xena is a fighter. So is Gabrielle. Am I sqeamish or conflictive watching it out in the real world? You Bet'cha. I want XENA out here making the decisions, so I don't have to decide whether I want to be a peace activist or a war-monger, or someone who will kill to protect her self or others, or decide that military options are valid. Many of my women sheroes in the last few years have been women fighting strongly for what they believe in. Xena, Gabrielle, Tarma and Kethry and others in Mercedes Lackey's wonderful books. I'm a killer. Aren't I, if Iwatch Xena? Or aren't I?? You see, there are all these issues come up and I can't, or won't or don't know that I can resolve these. Myself as a woman. Power. I am sure, I hope I am sure, that the issue has been women's power, and that is why I am watching/reading these images. Physical power, emotional power. This is feeling a bit bitter. But the one episode I remember, is The Price, is how one person showed it was possible to do something different, going against the odds in her own way. Gabrielle. And this show has conflicted me and lots of others over the years about these issues. Not that it is going on in our world again.....So, but, do I, do you, get to be "Xena?" Do we want to make those decisions, see how strong we are, how capable, how much genius we are in the midst of power issues, battles on the street, in fighting in another country. Perhaps the only thing Xena gave me was a wish, after the Sept 11 bombing in New York, is that I was a killer who couldn't kill. Of wanting to hurt people who hurt my or our people. But maybe someone could just go in and kill the terrorists, just the terrorists, maybe just the leader of the terrorists in an assasination. or having the power to say no. But do I want to kill? I am afraid of it. Fear. Lots of fear I fear my life is not important enough, I don't have the physical ability to defend myself because I am seriously ill. I have the ability, or I don't have the ability. OK, Xena, and Gabrielle, will you please show me how to do this in our real world? I can't do this. Or I can. And perhaps, with Season 6 out of the way I don't have to mezmerize myself with the folks on TV. I can get to be a s/hero myself, but oh, do I have to kill those folks to do it? No, not really. That might not be the reason we watched Xena. OK, what is it I REALLY miss about this season and this show going the way of all things that stop. Power. Power Power. It is really power. What do I say, have the courage to say to someone, especially a friend, who believes we should bomb the hell out of Afghanistan? What if I am Jewish and we are getting killed in the Mideast for what we believe are the wrong reasons? Do we stop it? Oh my, do we do revenge? Perhaps the one thing that struck me about the Finale ending was that revenge was still an option. Lucy Lawless (Xena - sorry, I get confused) was used to having the way out that SHE wanted. Sometimes revenge. And we heard lots and she thought much about Gabrielle's teachings that revenge was wrong. Yet I watched her do it on Debt. Got away with it, she did. OH NO, do I say this next thing? Will I be slammed? Perhaps what felt so uncomfortable for me is that the revenge "had" to be metted out to Xena. Rage inside of me wants to yell at these people saying, "You killed her! You killed the best actresses/characters we have seen in TV or movies for AGES who would not kill, or would take care of themselves and others by NEVER allowing others to abuse or hurt them or self, by violence when needed. With lots of violence sometimes. Or who took power, so dilligently that I NEVER thought I would see someone (Xena) kill a person out of --rage, lust, but later for the right reasons. Just the notion that women would not be nice and would always stand up for each other and themselves and do that. Yeah! And you went and KILLED HER FOR REVENGE!!?? Sheesh! I'm walking on a thin edge here. I dont usually voice my opinions so strongly. I've had alot of suspense in my life, as had so many these last months. So, the final scene was about retribution. Not about redemption. Xena did redemption. She proved to all the world (OK, so a few people were not convinced) that she had become "good," and was using her sword for the right thing, killing less people, putting it up that she had to become good, changed. But she HAD. Become good, that is. OK. so I remember that she tried to kill the Archangel Michael this season. Got a bit angry she did. REDEEM: to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental;: to release from blame or debt; to free from the consequences of sin My fear after watching this story (Friend in Need) about redemption is that indeed revenge did take place. Xena needed to be killed because the 40,000 people she directly or indirectly killed, had to have revenge on her. They had to be avenged. So Xena was killed in revenge. Whew! I don't like writing in this kind of mind-style. It feels like all the rage I have had the last several months had to be cooled, waiting to find out if anything I felt or thought made any sense. If you think any thing I have written here has merit, please let me know. L ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:06:21 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Hercules CD VOL. 3 I just recently got a Cd player in my car have been listening to my Xena CD's until I knew them by heart. Some time ago I bought the Hercules CD's but didn't listen them till know. I would like to say that Hercules VOL. 3 with the music from Ireland and the Thor arc is just wonderful and I highly recommend it. LoDuca should have been nominated for the music for that series along with Xena. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:53:40 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> @ Lots themes from all seasons here. @ @ @ @ bd wrote: "I think how a person reacts to FIN determines whether they view the ending as happy or not. " This is of course true enough. I also think it depends on how the viewer reacted to to Xena as a series determines whether that person saw the ending as happy or not. I believe that those who were unhappy with the ending probably saw Xena as primarially a love story between Xena and Gabrielle. I think those who may have happier with the ending saw Xena more as a hero's journey - story of two people seeking their own place in the world. I feel uncomfortable assuming what other's thought so I'll just talk about my own feelings about the series. I am a subtexter - I believe Xena and Gabrielle were in love. I, however, do not believe that was the main theme of the series. I believed we were always moving towards Xena's redemption and I believed that Xena was a doomed character; that she could only find peace in sacrifice and death. As the series progressed she found her path to redemption by accepting the path of the greater good. This she learned through her relationship with Gabrielle. She loves Gabrielle and when they first meet she places the girl on a pedestal. She becomes her protector and places all her trust in her. Then bad things happen. Xena can't protect her from evil. Gabrielle kills, is raped, betrays Xena, lies to her, and those lies lead to the death of her son. This almost destroys Xena but then Xena learns to forgive. She forgives Gabrielle and more importantly Xena is also forgiven. She learns that those who love can forgive and be forgiven. After that we do see a change in Xena. We see her more willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good. In One Against the Army she fights an almost hopless battle at Gabrielle's urging to save Greece. In the India arc she questions whether she should even be a warrior only to learn that fighting the good battle is her way to becoming the mother of peace. She becomes the protector of a prophet of peace and nearly loses her life in the process. In Fallen Angel we see her sacrific her very soul to save the one she wronged. She is always moving towards redemption through sacrifice. That journey culminates in her final sacrifice to save the 40,000 - it is immaterial whether we believe they deserve the sacrifice or not. Xena, herself, deserved the sacrifice. She deserved the peace and redemption the sacrifice gave her. Gabrielle also was on a journey. When we first meet her she is a child - naive and a bit full of herself. Bolstered by an adoring companion she believs herself wiser than she is. She takes great pride in the fact she has never killed, she believes nothing really bad can happen to her then her world falls apart. She kills, she is raped, consummed by jealously she betrays her friend, she bears a monster who kills the son of the persons she loves most in the world and that person tries to kill her. In the Bitter Suit she too forgives and is forgiven but that is not the life changing experience for her as it is for Xena. It's easy for Gabrielle to forgive. Gabrielle's faith in herself in seriously shaken. For the next season and a half we watch as Gabrielle tries to find her path. She goes on a spiritual quest - she becomes a pacifist. She once again is beset by pride as she sees her path as the only true one. She puts her principles before the people she loves. In Ides of March she is confronted with staying true to principles or sacrificing them to save her friend. At that one critical moment Gabrielle learns the true meaning of sacrifice. Watch that scene Rene O'Connor is terrific. When Gabrielle sees Xena goes down she makes a concious decision to fight to save Xena. She sacrifices her principles, her pride in her way, to save Xena. At that moment everything changes for Gabrielle not because she becomes a killing machine but because she now puts some one elses welfare above her own concerns. She has learned humility. After that we begin to see a much more responsible and less condescending Gabrielle. She becomes Xena's protector when she is pregnant, she is more gentle with Joxer's feelings, she becomes a mentor to Amarice, a true queen to the Amazons. As soon as she subordinates her own desires in order to serve others she becomes the cofident person she was always meant to be. In Japa she can put out the fire at Haguchi, defeat the samari, have the means to save Xena and have the courage to let Xena go because she too now knows the meaning of the greater good. The greater good for her is not the 40,000 but Xena's redemption. Her sacrifice now allows her to become the hero because she now serves the greater good. So yes I see the series as more of a hero's journey than a love story. I think of the love story as a bonus. In the end the heros get their reward peace for one and life of service for the other - that's what they always wanted. They also found true love along the way - a love so strong that it transcends death and will bind their souls together for eternity. So yeah I see a happy ending here. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:01:59 -0400 From: Thelonius Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:53:40 -0400 "Cheryl Ande" wrote: > @ > > Lots themes from all seasons here. > > @ > @ > @ > @ > bd wrote: > > "I think how a person reacts to FIN determines whether they view the ending as > happy or not. " > > This is of course true enough. I also think it depends on how the viewer > reacted to to Xena as a series determines whether that person saw the ending > as happy or not. I believe that those who were unhappy with the ending > probably saw Xena as primarially a love story between Xena and Gabrielle. I > think those who may have happier with the ending saw Xena more as a hero's > journey - story of two people seeking their own place in the world. I think - to split hairs maybe - the word 'happy' here is not quite the right one. I thought the ending was entirely fitting for the series, but I wouldn't call it a 'happy ending' in the conventional sense. (I hasten to add, I know of no rule that says a story has to have a happy ending, btw). OTOH, I see it as sad, but not an *unhappy* ending in the sense of huge wrongs left un-righted, or any sense of despair. More like closing the cover of a book after the final chapter. Equally, I wouldn't use the word 'happy' to convey my feelings about the ending - impressed, in fact almost overpowered at first; and I am content with the ending. 'Happy' doesn't quite convey the shade of meaning, I think. (Rest of interesting post - which I agree with btw - respectfully snipped). Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V1 #16 *************************************