From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V1 #9 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, October 15 2001 Volume 01 : Number 009 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Fw: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" > ["Jackie M. Young" > [meredith > ["Cheryl Ande" > [IfeRae@aol.com] RE: [chakram-refugees] << Dreamworker & Cradle Of Hope>> ["Lee Daley" > [Thelonius Subject: Fw: [chakram-refugees] <> - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cheryl Ande" To: "Mirrordrum" Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 12:44 AM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> > Thanks for the feed back and you bring up some interesting points: > > in thinking about FIN again in light of lucy's apology, i've wondered how > > people would've reacted to the ep if she'd chosen to let gabrielle dump > the > > ashes in the water (i.e. if tptb had allowed it). there was much hue and > > cry about the beheading but i wonder if that would have bothered people > > much if xena and gab had sailed off into the sunset. > > I personally don't believe people would have cared at all about the arrows, > the beheading, or Xena being strung up like a prized buck if she was brought > to life at the end. I also wondered what the reaction would have been Xena > had been killed by a bunch of female samaris - I somehow think there would > have been more acceptable to a prtion of the fan base. It seems the shock > at the "brutality" was a little late. I don't remember all this concern > when Xena was impalling Amazons on trees. > > > > > > i certainly hope lucy realizes that not all fans are enamored of the > > soul-mate concept, not all of us (even subtexters) felt betrayed nor > > crushed, and many of us felt the ep was well done, albeit very painful. > > I think it is a kind of a shame that Lucy felt the necessity to apoligize > for a dramatic choice that was made in good faith. Let's face it any choice > made would have been the wrong one for some segment of the fan base. My > ending would have been to have Xena and Gabrielle settle down in Japan > become somekind of Shinto pristess (if there is such a thing) and invent > karate. I suspect this would have stunned the fan base! > > > > > > > > > > >She also frees Gabrielle in a sense. Gabrielle because of her love for > Xena > > >is dragged along on Xena's quest for redemption. > > > > Perhaps I overstated my case a bit. I guess what I was trying to say is the > from a mythological sense the young hero can not take up the mantle of her > own heroism until her mentor is dead or no longer in the picture. I don't > really think Gabrielle was dragged along unwillingly but I do feel that > until Xena's redemption is accomplished Gabrielle cannot come into her own. > > > > i would prefer, however, to believe that ultimately we redeem > ourselves--or > > perhaps more nearly that we are ultimately responsible for our own > > redemption. actually, i don't like the idea of redemption so much. i'm > > rather inclined to think of us as having the ability moment by moment to > > create ourselves anew. > > I think this is exactly what Xena did. She recreated herself. She let go of > the past. She finally said this is enough I have saved the 40,000. I have > done enough - I have accomplished my own redemption. > > . > > who touches us in our lives is with us. i think we're mistaken when we > > believe that we only keep them with us by continuing to suffer when > they're > > gone. > > This is absolutely true. I heard the other day that the last words one of > the hijacked passangers said to his wife on he cell phone from the plan was > that he wanted her to be happy. Living a good life and being happy honors > the one who is gone. It shows that they gave us strength and courage. I > think when we see a smiling Gabrielle on the boat back from Japa we a person > who grieves but a person who knows that living a happy life is the best gift > she can give Xena. > > > ayup. grin. but ya gotta be careful what you wish for 'cause you just > might > > get it. xena's was the easy part: she made the decision and freed herself. > > the hard part would be gabrielle's: living with xena's decision and her > own > > compliance with it. don't you know she's just got to be kicking herself > all > > the way to tartarus and back for *finally* listening? > > I don't know if you watch Buffy but I just saw this weeks episode and it > made me think of Xena. Last week Buffy was brought back from the dead by > her friends. At end of this weeks episode she thanks them because she says > she was in hell and in torment. A little while later she confesses to > another character that she actually was happy, at peace and felt great love. > She assumes she was in heaven but her friends now have brought her back to > world of violence and pain and now she is truly in hell. Just think if > Gabrielle had brought Xena back -perhaps Xena did find peace and contentment > only to be brought back to a life of violence and struggle because of her > friends selfish desire. I think Gabrielle is wise enough to know that > respecting Xena's wishes was the right choice. > > Anyway it's great to talk Xena again. It's always interesting chatting with > you. > > Cheryl > > > > md--happy to be talking about xena on chak. . ., er chakram-refugees ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:37:59 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] LL on EW 10/5/2001, p. 141 LL has a brief mention in Entertainment Weekly, about her upcoming guest role on X-Files: ======== "At first, I found it very serious.... And I would get the giggles, because I come from a set where no one took anything serious, ever. It was a rule.... When I came here, I would go to the read-throughs, and they're very reverent. And, it's not that I'm not reverential about the material or the people I'm working with, but I just can't stand the pressure, so I'm [trying to hold back laughter]--and I just look like this naughty kid, guffawing away in the corner to myself." --Ex-Warrior Princess Lucy Lawless, comparing her experiences on the set of Xena with those during her recent guest stint on The X-Files. ======== The article comes with a nice (kinda like her Playboy shot) color pic of her in a "diaphynous" (sp?) [always wanted to use that word ;) ] low-cut sparkly light brown dress. ;=) But something tells moi that LL probably won't become a *regular* on X-Files. ;P Just FYI, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:26:14 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> "Cheryl Ande" wrote: >Well I guess I do see FIN as having a happy ending. Xena gets her >redemption, Gabrielle comes of age, and the two have fullfilled their >promise that "even in death" they would never be separated. I found the >ending more powerful that a conventional happy ending. - --I agree with Cheryl, I found the ending very poignant, moreso due to X's death. A so-called "happy ending" would've been a disservice to such an iconoclastic show. ;P Along these lines, and not to "stir the pot" again about the revenge/redemption issue several of us were wrestling with before Chakram died (RIP ;( ), but this reminded me of a recent article I read that one of our Philosophy (again!) students wrote in our student paper about the events of 09-11-01, and whether retaliation is right. This student cites the dilemma faced by Lawrence of Arabia in the film of the same name, in which neighboring tribes have formed a tenuous peace, but this is threatened by one member committing a serious crime against a member of the other tribe. In order to avoid war, Lawrence steps in as an impartial mediator, and volunteers to execute the offending person. He discovers to his dismay that that person is his friend whom he earlier saved. Obviously torn, but true to his promise, Lawrence executes his friend. The student goes on to explain this: "C.S. Lewis would not call Lawrence's act 'revenge'--he would call it 'retribution'. In 'The Retributive Theory of Justice', Lewis argues that retribution is a just, dignified and necessary response to evil that ultimately preserves the good. The implication is that all violence is not unjust and all violent responses are not revenge." Although, again, as in my previous discussion with md, I don't pretend to understand this theory thoroughly, I find myself mostly agreeing with it as it applies to XWP in general, and in particular to <>. Undoubtedly, X traversed the countryside dispensing her own retributive justice and we never questioned it (or rarely); but when it gets turned back on her, we fans put up a big hue and cry. I don't know if it will help those who had trouble with the "revenge" part of <>, but perhaps looking at X's death as "retribution" as defined above ("a just, dignified and necessary response... that ultimately preserves the good"), rather than "revenge", will clear things up? Or, it may *muddy* the waters even more.....;) Just MO, ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * "Feel the fear and do it anyway." --Lucy Lawless, * * Evening Post, 7/4/98 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:13:17 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Fwd: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> This came directly to me but I believe it was meant for the list. As a reminder, the address to post to the list is chakram-refugees@smoe.org. Meredith >From: Richan@aol.com >Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 02:23:38 EDT >Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> >To: owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org >X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 114 > >I just finished reading an article by Jennifer Brouillard at WHOOSH. It >covered >look-a-likes in XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS. Ms. Brouillard covers Xena then >turns to Gabrielle and explores the bard's many facets. > ><< So, why does Gabrielle not have as many natural lookalikes as Xena and >Joxer do? The answer is that each season she is her own lookalike. Gabrielle >started as the innocent young bard in SINS OF THE PAST (01/101), then >became the Amazon princess in HOOVES AND HARLOTS (10/110), and the >Amazon Queen in THE QUEST (37/213). She was the jealous friend suppressing >her memories in FORGET ME NOT (63/317), the pacifist during the second half >of the fourth season, and the warrior during the fifth season. And now some >would label her the tramp, especially in such sixth season episodes as >WHO'S GURKHAN (116/604) when she joins Gurkhan's harem to seek her >revenge on him for kidnapping her niece, and OLD ARES HAS A FARM >(122/610) when she diverts the warlords looking for Ares by ripping her >shirt open. Her personality shifts as she searches for herself and reacts >to circumstances within her environment. With each traumatic event she >discovers a part of herself she never knew existed. >> > >Gabrielle's look-a-likes were inside her. I wish that Ms. Brouillard had >spent >a little more time with that concept. > >In the past I've felt that Gabrielle's look-a-likes were a measurement of >her growth as an individual. I've also thought of them as multiple >personalities >fighting for dominance inside her. I now ask myself, based on this essay, >is this Xenaesque look-a-like we see at the conclusion of A FRIEND IN NEED >the last change, the last personality that Gabrielle will exhibit? And if so, >does this mean that XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS is really at an end? > >I say this because I've spent some time going over THE ODYSSEY with my >students in Humanities. It now occurs to me that Gabrielle functions very >much like Telemachus, Odysseus' son. Both are countdown timers. Odysseus >and his wife Penelope agree that it is likely that Odysseus will be away >for sometime. Odysseus tells Penelope is not to give up hope of his return >until >their new born son Telemachus can grow a beard. And when that time >comes Penelope is to remarry. Likewise we see Gabrielle grow to womanhood >just as Telemachus grows to manhood. She is more fortunate than >Telemachus as Gabrielle's mentor Xena is with her until she has acquired >"many skills." > >Still there is more truth to similarity in Odysseus's bow and Xena's chakram >than >was expressed in ULYSSES. For in lacking the ability for Gabrielle to grow a >beard she instead masters the other count down timer in the Odyssey-- >Odysseus' bow in the form of Xena's chakram. As time runs out, Odysseus >reclaims his throne and Xena claims peace for her soul. > >Richan ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:08:40 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] << Dreamworker & Cradle Of Hope>> Working my way through my tapes and I'm sticking to my plan of watching one tape each weekend so far. Dreamworker was the episode that got me really hooked on the series and on Gabrielle's character. Gabrielle is certainly feisty and funny. We also get a good look at Xena's tormented soul and she struggle to come to grips with her darkside. It also presents the idea of blood innocence and the fact that Gabrielle must be protected from shedding blood. It is an interesting piece for the simple reason that Gabrielle here first begins to loose her innocence. Let's face it Gabrielle certainly arranges for her tormentors to be killed. She tricks them into killing each other. That takes a certain kind of deadly cunning. It also presents the plot twist that always bothered me until Gabrielle took up the sword. Gabrielle must be protected from killing but it is perfectly acceptable for her to toss the sword to Xena so she could kill to defend Gabby. That always struck me a hypocritical. On a lighter note it is the last time we hear of six toed Gabrielle. I wish that little fact would popped up more. What if Gabrielle could have predicted the weather because her missing toe was prone to phantom pain? When they went looking for her niece in Gurkhan, Gabrielle could have been counting harem girl toes. Ahh a missed opportunity that not even fan fiction has missed! Cradle Hope has a number of interesting things in it. I spotted in a non-speaking henchman role, the head priest from Many Happy Returns. Also this is obviously where Gabrielle gets the idea of sending Hope down the river in a basket. I always believed that Gabrielle remembered her encounter with that baby when it came time to hide Hope. Also it was quite poignant when Xena says they have to find the baby's mother and Gabby answers that obviously the mother doesn't want the baby. As she will fin out latter in her own life such desperate act can be an expression of just the opposite emotion. Also interesting enough this the first time Xena dances. Obviously Xena stopped at ancient equivalent of Arthur Murry and took same dancing lessons just in time to meet Lucifer and Gurkhan. I was also reminded that a lot of people were upset with Antony & Cleopatra and Gurkhan because Xena used her sexuality to advance her plots. Obviously they forgot that Xena had used that ploy before as she did Cradle. Anyway very enjoyable episodes. I wish we had seen a few more light-heart episodes with Xena and Gabby helping strangers in the latter seasons. I, however, wonder like others if you could have sustained much fan interest if you continued on for six years with chatty naive Gabrielle and stoic Xena. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:12:47 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 10/13/2001 5:26:25 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > She does > the greatest good for the greatest number and acepts that she has done the > best she could. With that acceptance she frees herself also. > > She also frees Gabrielle in a sense. Gabrielle because of her love for Xena > is dragged along on Xena's quest for redemption. Remember what Callisto > said > In "ides Of March" Xena can'let herself or "her partner rest" because of her > guilt. Xena by accepting her redemption she allows Gabrielle to emerge from > her shadow and now has the oportunity to be a hero in her own right. > Gabrielle is "alone" as are all free individuals. Yes, I saw it much as you did. I did consider Gabrielle a willing participant -- rather than "dragged along" -- in Xena's quest, but I didn't think she would be free from Xena's shadow no matter how much either of them grew. The "death is not necessarily permanent" thread in the Xenaverse leaves me free to believe that Gabrielle will have a few years to establish herself away from that shadow, then possibly find a way to restore Xena and they walk off into the sunset more equal and still evolving in their relationship. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:42:25 -0400 From: "Lee Daley" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] << Dreamworker & Cradle Of Hope>> Cheryl Ande wrote > Working my way through my tapes and I'm sticking to my plan of. > watching one > tape each weekend so far. You know that this is going to get all of us to do it. Actually not a bad idea, it's kinda like a virtual season 1. > > Dreamworker was the episode that got me really hooked on the series and on > Gabrielle's character. Although I got hooked on the first episode, this episode was the one that got me hooked on Gabrielle. One of my top ten favorites. For some reason this episode was not rerun very often during the early seasons, it took quite some time to get a copy of it. > It also presents the > plot twist that > always bothered me until Gabrielle took up the sword. Gabrielle must be > protected from killing but it is perfectly acceptable for her to toss the > sword to Xena so she could kill to defend Gabby. That always struck me a > hypocritical. They introduced the blood inocence thing here, and really got some mileage out of pushing the envelope. > > On a lighter note it is the last time we hear of six toed > Gabrielle. I wish > that little fact would popped up more. I totally forgot about that one. > Cradle Hope has a number of interesting things in it. To include the damn "BABY TOSS" that every talk show used as one of the clips. > Anyway very enjoyable episodes. I wish we had seen a few more light-heart > episodes with Xena and Gabby helping strangers in the latter seasons. I, > however, wonder like others if you could have sustained much fan > interest if > you continued on for six years with chatty naive Gabrielle and stoic Xena. I think you are correct in this analysis. But the loss of this innocence did make a lot of early fans abandon the show. LeeD; Warrior Jester ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:13:01 -0400 From: Thelonius Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] << Dreamworker & Cradle Of Hope>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:42:25 -0400 "Lee Daley" wrote: > Cheryl Ande wrote > > Working my way through my tapes and I'm sticking to my plan of. > > watching one > > tape each weekend so far. > > You know that this is going to get all of us to do it. Actually not a bad > idea, it's kinda like a virtual season 1. > > > > > > Dreamworker was the episode that got me really hooked on the series and on > > Gabrielle's character. > > Although I got hooked on the first episode, this episode was the one that > got me hooked on Gabrielle. One of my top ten favorites. For some reason > this episode was not rerun very often during the early seasons, it took > quite some time to get a copy of it. > > > > It also presents the > > plot twist that > > always bothered me until Gabrielle took up the sword. Gabrielle must be > > protected from killing but it is perfectly acceptable for her to toss the > > sword to Xena so she could kill to defend Gabby. That always struck me a > > hypocritical. > > They introduced the blood inocence thing here, and really got some mileage > out of pushing the envelope. > > > > > On a lighter note it is the last time we hear of six toed > > Gabrielle. I wish > > that little fact would popped up more. > > I totally forgot about that one. > > > > Cradle Hope has a number of interesting things in it. > > To include the damn "BABY TOSS" that every talk show used as one of the > clips. > Actually, before that there was a pig-tossing episode on Hercules... But anyway, I liked Mary Elizabeth McGlynn as Pandora in CoH. I thought she did well. Surprised we never saw her back in a supporting role (seeing as how RenPics used to recycle their supporting cast....) > > > Anyway very enjoyable episodes. I wish we had seen a few more light-heart > > episodes with Xena and Gabby helping strangers in the latter seasons. I, > > however, wonder like others if you could have sustained much fan > > interest if > > you continued on for six years with chatty naive Gabrielle and stoic Xena. > > I think you are correct in this analysis. But the loss of this innocence > did make a lot of early fans abandon the show. > > LeeD; Warrior Jester Hah! I woulda abandoned the show early in the piece if the Irritating Blonde _hadn't_ bit the dust ;-) Thelonius ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:13:01 -0400 From: Thelonius Subject: [chakram-refugees] NEWS FLASH: Rock discovered on mountainside Yes it's true. The intrepid staff of the NewXenaland site, who sometimes have trouble discovering their own feet, have found a rock on the slopes of Mount Ruapehu. Observed only by NSA spy satellites and a Scottish mountain biking tourist, the NewXenaland research staff, numbering one obsessive individual who has no life, spent a morning clambering up and slithering down the mountainside in the hot sun, clutching a handful of printouts and comparing them with most of the 3,279,687 rocks littering the area. There are now three positively confirmed and identified rocks which have been seen in the Sin Trade episodes. These are real rocks made of ...... umm, rock, and the property of Tongariro National Park, not the RenPics special polystyrene foam lightweight models which were sold at the auction. Those on this list who also have no life can view them at the updated page of the NewXenaland site http://cr01.orcon.net.nz/nx/ruapehu.html. T ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:01:26 -0400 From: Thelonius Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: [XenaGuard] NEWS FLASH: Rock discovered on mountainside On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:13:01 -0400 Thelonius who has rocks in his brain wrote: (snip) > Those on this list who also have no life can view them at the updated page of > the NewXenaland site > http://cr01.orcon.net.nz/nx/ruapehu.html. > OOPS! The correct URL is http://cr01.orcon.net.nz/nx/ruapehu/ruapehu.html Sorry about that. T ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V1 #9 ************************************