From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V1 #8 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, October 14 2001 Volume 01 : Number 008 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] os/ XWP Virtual Season 7 [Thelonius ] Re: [chakram-refugees] found on the Usenet (fwd) [Mark & Denise ] [chakram-refugees] re: It's no mystery [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" > [Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] os/ XWP Virtual Season 7 On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:22:02 -0400 "Lee Daley" wrote: > > Meredith wrote: > > >On a similar note, since I've gotten inquiries a couple times > > >already: I think discussion of the "virtual season 7" is ok, though > > >please specify in your subject lines that that's what you're posting > > >about, so those who might not care can filter accordingly. > > > > I'm the creator of and one of the XWPVS7 core team members... and I > > have no problem discussing it (obviously *L*) and I wanted to let > > everyone know that a) I'm here to answer questions if anyone has them > > but that b) if you do and it's not something which the entire list is > > going to be interested in, then you can email me privately with them > > and I'm happy to answer them. > > > > I had originally emailed Ven to see if I could post about it and he > > had said no because, while he thought it was a cool idea, it would > > lead to discussion about fanfic which he didn't want on chakram. > > > > So, something else to keep in mind if you do post about the VS since > > I don't want it to lead this list way off topic. > > > > And I also wanted to apologize that this - my first post - is pretty > > OT, but since Meredith brought it up, I hope this is ok. > > > > Cheers, > > Hadley > > I also like the idea of a virtual season 7. But I think it might be better > if it were a seperate list. And there are various vehicles for a list of > that type, Yahoogroups, for example. I think there are enough bones to chew > with the 6 seasons we have, and current happingings. > > LeeD I'd agree, separate list for 'Virtual Season 7'. Simply because what was shown on screen is 'canon' IMO, and nothing else is - not fanfic, or authors' intent, or even draft scripts. Sure they're legitimate topics for disscussion but I think the distinction should be preserved, and things like VS7 or draft scripts can be mentioned where relevant but not as main topics. Just IMO. And there are enough different interpretations of what *did* screen already, to fill the list anyway. T ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:23:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Sarah Anne Packard Subject: [chakram-refugees] found on the Usenet (fwd) Got this from a friend. :) -Sarah, off to the Dearborn Xena con!!- - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- hmmm Lucy gets it, finally ============================= In a recent interview, Lucy Lawless commented on the fan reaction to FIN: The controversial denouement, though true to the risk-taking nature of the series, infuriated many of the Xena faithful to a degree which Lawless seems only now to be fully grasping. "Talking with a friend of mine, I finally understood what that might be about," Lawless says. "For her, it was that so many people in this world have never been in love, or they were in love and lost the other person. They want to believe in the soul-mate concept." "Our show kept talking about 'the soul mate, the soul mate' for all those seasons," the actress says. "And I personally don't really believe in the soul-mate idea, but it never really occurred to me that other people could so need to hold onto that, that that's what they loved about the show." "At the end, what we did was take Gabrielle's soulmate away from her. Gabrielle and Xena were split up. And I think that had a dreadful resonance for very many of our fans. "For that I'm really sorry." That said, Lawless adds, some viewers mistakenly believed that the show's makers -- chief among them her husband, producer/writer Robert Tapert, who co-wrote and directed A Friend In Need -- plotted each episode with an eye toward the effect it would have on viewers. "We really just tried to get a story on film every week," Lawless says. "That's an immense task. But we broke their hearts [with the finale], I think." Full article at: http://199.97.97.16/contWriter/endnews2/2001/10/11/enter/3487-0050-pat_nytim es. html ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:30:10 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] os/ XWP Virtual Season 7 Hi, Well, since I've gotten more negative feedback than positive on this issue, I'll defer to the wishes of the majority and declare that the Virtual Season 7 is fanfic, and is thus not to be discussed on the list. (Though if anyone wants to discuss anything about it with me personally, just e-me directly. :) I'm kind of interested.) ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:41:15 -0500 From: Mark & Denise Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] found on the Usenet (fwd) Sarah Anne Packard wrote: > Got this from a friend. :) > > -Sarah, off to the Dearborn Xena con!!- > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > hmmm Lucy gets it, finally > ============================= > > In a recent interview, Lucy Lawless commented on the fan reaction to FIN: > > > <> > > "Our show kept talking about 'the soul mate, the soul mate' for all those > seasons," the actress says. "And I personally don't really believe in the > soul-mate idea, but it never really occurred to me that other people could > so need to hold onto that, that that's what they loved about the show." > > "At the end, what we did was take Gabrielle's soulmate away from her. > Gabrielle and Xena were split up. And I think that had a dreadful resonance > for very many of our fans. While I was one who would have preferred a different ending, I had always thought that the idea of soul-mate, coupled with the eps that indicated they would always be together, should act as bit of a 'comfort-factor' for the fans. No matter when or where, we could not expect X&G to die [for real] together and come back again at the same time. BTL showed that when they came back at different ages. Keeping this in mind, it helped make FIN II a bit easier [for me] to take. Mark ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:20:50 EDT From: BElannafan@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Achronyms In a message dated 10/13/2001 2:37:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mab961@satx.rr.com writes: << BTL showed that when they came back at different ages. >> I myself am acronym challenged... I'm piss poor at figuring out what acronyms really mean. Usually the only time I understand what episode people are talking about when they use acronyms is when some other episode-identifying information is given. In this case I was able to ID the episode after a little while. BUT that is why our list mistress asked in Rule #6 to use the whole name of the episode when posting. After referring to an ep. by its whole name subsequent references to said ep. could then be acromyned. For those of us who are acronym-challanged, we thank you. :)) ============================================================ Consideration is given, Respect is earned, Jan. You know you're a redneck Jedi when Darth Vader says' "Come with me, Luke. I am your father and your uncle." ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:30:21 EDT From: Xwpacolyte@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] CD Vol. 6 There are a few tunes on CD2 of the Vol. 6 soundtrack that I can't identify. Can anyone tell me which episodes they come from? 1. The Mausoleum 2. It's Over 3. Love Is a Weapon 4. United in Love Thanks. XWPacolyte Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena and Gabrielle. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:31:40 -0700 (PDT) From: barbara nadel Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] CD Vol. 6 hi, if my memory serves me correctly, "it's over" is from "to helicon and back" at the end when gabrielle is going after one of the bad guys (can't remember the leader's name, artemis' *son*) and they've already won because xena killed the leader. she yells to stop gabrielle from killing the guy, ultimately saying to her that the battle was over, they'd won. a very bittersweet ending to the ep, and to gabrielle's continuing journey of being a warrior. btw, i just wanted to say that i'd never posted to the original chakram mailing list, wasn't even registered, but discovered the archives in oct of 98, and never missed reading one for the next 3 years. i've got many posts printed out because i always thought this group was one of the most interesting and stimulating groups i'd read regarding xena. i thank you all for many thought provoking discussions over the years. and i thank meredith for inviting me to join. we met at meow mix because of this list!! and she works in new haven and i was born there. haha!! while i'll probably rarely if ever post, being time management challenged in my private life, (kt knows this for sure cause i hardly ever email her back like i say i will! LOL!) but i look forward to continuing to read your discussions and participate if i can. oh, and i had the same reaction to lucy's telling quote about finally understanding why some of us were upset at the finale. "finally". exactly my feelings. barbara who's really happy to be here - --- Xwpacolyte@aol.com wrote: > There are a few tunes on CD2 of the Vol. 6 > soundtrack that I can't identify. > Can anyone tell me which episodes they come from? > > 1. The Mausoleum > 2. It's Over > 3. Love Is a Weapon > 4. United in Love > > Thanks. > > XWPacolyte > Cupid and Psyche... Antony and Cleopatra... Xena > and Gabrielle. > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees > list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org > with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or > problems. > ========================================================= Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:15:15 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] re: It's no mystery > Definitely negative! We've GOT the 'canon', the real 'history'... with all > its glories and flaws... (some AWFUL flaws, like the characterization of > Gabrielle as vain and narcissistic in "The Play's the Thing"). I don't think it would have worked for Gabrielle to be perfect, and since she is basically perfect, making her a little pleased with herself in a comedy seems alright to me. It's nothing compared to what RenPic called Xena-- "monster," "mass murderer," "war criminal." Boeotian The tale grew in the telling. -- J.R.R. Tolkien ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:31:42 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> Lillie wrote: "Yes, I believe in redemption. No, I really was not happy with the ending. I would have loved to see them walk off into the sunset." Well I guess I do see FIN as having a happy ending. Xena gets her redemption, Gabrielle comes of age, and the two have fullfilled their promise that "even in death" they would never be separated. I found the ending more powerful that a conventional happy ending. I just watched a small part of Joseph Campbell's PBS broadcast on myths and it statred me thinking about FIN. I think the end with Xena choosing the utimate sacrifice to save the 40,000 really resonates as a truly mythic ending. We see a woman haunted by guilt finally resolve her internal struggle, she can not rest - she can't even die because she must continually atone for her sins. At the end of Friend she finally realizes that she can now stop. She accepts that she cannot atone for all her misdeeds but she can at this moment truly redeem a great many of those she has wronged. She does the greatest good for the greatest number and acepts that she has done the best she could. With that acceptance she frees herself also. She also frees Gabrielle in a sense. Gabrielle because of her love for Xena is dragged along on Xena's quest for redemption. Remember what Callisto said In "ides Of March" Xena can'let herself or "her partner rest" because of her guilt. Xena by accepting her redemption she allows Gabrielle to emerge from her shadow and now has the oportunity to be a hero in her own right. Gabrielle is "alone" as are all free individuals. Having said all this I think Xena is still with Gabrielle. As a spirit freed from guilt she can truly love Gabrielle in an unselfish way. Her love reaches out beyond the grave and she will always be a real presence in her life. For Gabrielle a Xena redeemed and happy is what she always wanted and now she has true a soulmate. One not burdened by guilt but one that is truly happy. You know this is fanatsy, not reality, so I see ghostly Xena as much Gabrielle's companion as the live Xena. Anyway if Xena as a ghost can drink water I imagine she can do anything else corporal Xena could do :-). CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:02:54 -0400 From: Mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> At 06:31 PM 10/13/2001 -0400, Cheryl Ande wrote: >Well I guess I do see FIN as having a happy ending. Xena gets her redemption, >Gabrielle comes of age, and the two have fullfilled their promise that "even >in death" they would never be separated. I found the ending more powerful >that a conventional happy ending. i agree with you at least in terms of the redemption and "more powerful than a conventional happy ending" parts. indeed, i was watching again the other day and these voice-over lines of gabrielle's struck me in re the FINs: "My dear friend's curse is to spend the rest of her life seeking a redemption she'll never allow herself." (thanks Whoosh! transcript) and it came to pass that this was true. xena's quest for redemption ended when she chose to stay dead. now i don't consider dying a particular virtue, but i think it fits with the show. of course, xwp is rather like the bible--or anything else for that matter--if you look for support for what you believe, chances are you can find it, construe it or infer it. in thinking about FIN again in light of lucy's apology, i've wondered how people would've reacted to the ep if she'd chosen to let gabrielle dump the ashes in the water (i.e. if tptb had allowed it). there was much hue and cry about the beheading but i wonder if that would have bothered people much if xena and gab had sailed off into the sunset. xena's beheading was only one of numerous beheadings in the series brought about directly or indirectly by xena; the last one i think was gurkhan's. i don't remember a lot of foaming and lathering about brutality in that ep which was one of the most brutal, imo, of the series. i certainly hope lucy realizes that not all fans are enamored of the soul-mate concept, not all of us (even subtexters) felt betrayed nor crushed, and many of us felt the ep was well done, albeit very painful. i don't think we really have any idea how the 'verse was split in terms of response to the ending b/c many of us who liked it, or at least weren't "destroyed" by it, didn't need to go on at great length. it concerns me a little that we can invest so much in a dramatized relationship and that it's so difficult to admit that relationships, like lives, must end. even the lives of heroes. or perhaps especially the lives of heroes whose heroism often lies in their willingness to embrace mortality while at the same time rising above it. >She also frees Gabrielle in a sense. Gabrielle because of her love for Xena >is dragged along on Xena's quest for redemption. this is an interesting point and probably fits with the much touted canon. i would prefer, however, to believe that ultimately we redeem ourselves--or perhaps more nearly that we are ultimately responsible for our own redemption. actually, i don't like the idea of redemption so much. i'm rather inclined to think of us as having the ability moment by moment to create ourselves anew. indeed, i think xena said something like that somewhere that i approved of. i never liked the idea, even as a child, of someone dying for my sins or being responsible for my being or becoming. i don't think anyone can be courageous for me or set me free in either the personal or spiritual sense--i'm not talking about physical slavery, from which one can and should be freed, but about the ability of, and necessity for, humans to create order and meaning regardless of context. well, now, as i write that, i find that this isn't exactly right either. i do believe in co-creationism; i believe that people conjointly create social reality(ies). i guess i do agree that together xena and gabrielle were engaged in a dance that they choreographed as they went along and that simultaneously had abiding themes. one of those themes was that xena was responsible for perennially dragging gabrielle out of her way. xena's was the way of remorse, if you ask me. so what's my point? um, i guess i think you're right, that gabrielle is portrayed as sacrificing her life to follow xena. and xena's always *apologizing* for it: i'm sorry i took you so far from your way and so forth. well, surely there are real-life conflicts like this because we *do* effect other people and we do give things up for other people. at the same time, if gabrielle is going to get herself together and make something of her life then she's ultimately going to have to do it whether she travels with xena or not and regardless of whether xena lives or not. how she defines herself, what that "something" is, she may well choose to define within the scope of her travels with xena. she may define herself "vis-a-vis" the other, which, of course, is the traditional woman's or subordinate's role. with xena dead, she could *still* chose to define herself with regard to xena, carrying the chakram, using the pinch and generally trying to be somebody she's not. personally, i prefer to wish that she would be able to separate herself from that relationship--honoring it and yet letting it go. >Having said all this I think Xena is still with Gabrielle. > As a spirit freed from guilt she can truly love Gabrielle in an unselfish >way. this is another interesting point. i like it b/c it's consonant with my own beliefs. and i would say the same of gabrielle: maybe she can now let xena go. this has nothing to do with xena not being "with" her. i think everyone who touches us in our lives is with us. i think we're mistaken when we believe that we only keep them with us by continuing to suffer when they're gone. > Her love reaches out beyond the grave and she will always be a real >presence in her life. For Gabrielle a Xena redeemed and happy is what she >always wanted and now she has true a soulmate. One not burdened by guilt but >one that is truly happy. ayup. grin. but ya gotta be careful what you wish for 'cause you just might get it. xena's was the easy part: she made the decision and freed herself. the hard part would be gabrielle's: living with xena's decision and her own compliance with it. don't you know she's just got to be kicking herself all the way to tartarus and back for *finally* listening? md--happy to be talking about xena on chak. . ., er chakram-refugees ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V1 #8 ************************************