From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V5 #285 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Thursday, December 27 2001 Volume 05 : Number 285 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- Requests [Anthony Marbuke ] Out of practice [Anthony Marbuke ] walking checkbooks? [Simona Loberant ] Re: Out of practice [Kris Richardson ] Re: Requests (Part 1) ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Out of practice ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Requests (Part 2) ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Out of practice ["Ron Rosen" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:49:21 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Marbuke Subject: Requests As to who's running the show at a concert, you probably wouldn't be too happy with a Joe Jackson show (as a previous poster noted, too). I think he'd throw you out for chewing gum! I remember one show I was at where he looked quizzically at the audience and said "is it hot in here?" After getting several affirmatives he pondered gravely for a bit, then turned to his band and said "You may remove your jackets". This abusive and uncaring attitude towards his fans explains why Joe Jackson went from playing soccer arenas and stadiums in the 1980s to bowling alley bars and state fairs today. Requests depend entirely upon the nature of the show. A band heavily dependent on special effects (like a Pink Floyd, etc.) obviously can't do any. There is no room for extemporaneous performance. If you are seeing a band or performer in a concert hall or large venue, it is tough to honor requests or let alone have dozens of people calling out names of songs constantly. It doesn't work. But in clubs, small venues, even house concerts there is NO EXCUSE for a performer not to solicit requests at some point during the show or even play some requests given before they took the stage. A set list is just a rough time guide that should be abandoned when a fan has a real request that can easily be honored for them. No one is suggesting that a singer should become a "walking juke box" but in a 20 song show two or three requests are easy to honor. Performers usually tour to promote new albums and want to play songs no one has heard before. Fans want the golden oldies, their fan favorites. There needs to be room for both with some input from the fans about what they are paying to hear. Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:58:51 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Marbuke Subject: Out of practice when i talked with Susan last fall, she mentioned the "hidden track" on Time Between Trains. i asked if thought she might play it in the second show, and she regretted that it had been a long time and she would probably stumble over the lyrics. so, who wants to go onstage and mess-up their own songs? and who can be prepared to play fifteen random requests out of a repertoire of over a hundred tunes every night? and still be trying to concentrate on writing more? This poster raises the only real reason not to do requests and it really isn't a very good one. I've seen Susan perform MOVIE OF MY LIFE many times and I bet she's sung that song 5,000 times in front of audiences. Singing songs are like bicycles, you rarely forget how to really do them when you've done them so often. Plus, anyone that saw Dar Williams when she first started hitting the clubs knows the wonderful charm of seeing a performer forget her lines. She doesn't do it so much anymore but it is funny when it happens and even Dar would laugh about the whole experience. Susan's performances have become very scripted over the last few years, really to her detriment. She once was more sponteneous and impromptu. Have you noticed her humorous interludes are getting shorter and less frequent? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 14:07:08 -0800 (PST) From: Simona Loberant Subject: walking checkbooks? reading all the back posts over this week I noticed a line about performers considering the audience to be walking checkbooks... I thought about this. Seems like the old struggle about art and money. Art is and should not be about money or priviledge, yet without people paying to see performances or to go to gallerys, buying paintings or recordings etc... there would be no art. Artists have to eat, buy guitar strings, buy paint, travel, live somewhere etc. So yes, our checkbooks do go to help the artist be an artist. But, how do they look at us (the patrons) ? I know that the original comment was a insult to artists who won't play requests on demand. But I just thought that if performers truly considered their patrons to be walking checkbooks wouldn't they have little price cards "song request, extra twenty dollars" ? I don't think that any artists whether they are musicians, or painters, or whatever else look at us the public as just a meal ticket. But we do facilitate them being able to do what they do best for a living through our financial patronage. As a result they are able to concentrate on their art and practice, rehearse and improve that art. If they had to keep a full time office job then they would not be able to truly develop that art to its full potential. They don't consider us just as walking checkbooks, its sort of unfair. We do support them financially in a matter of speaking, but we also support the folks that work at Target, or our doctors and dentists etc... But does that give those of us who pay for tickets or recordings to dictate what the musician plays? (or what an artist paints?) I think "NO!" We are all allowed to dislike what we want to dislike. But to feel that we should then have a say in how that art is produced in order to make us like it more seems a bit arrogant. We have an amazing choice of music to sample. There are, as we are painfully aware, other countries where music can be outlawed, or censored or where the artist must meet certain government standards. Here, it is up to the people to decide what they will hear and when. If a person does not like an artist then they can choose to never patronize that artist again. They can choose to patronize a different artist who meets their requirements and as there are so many choices out there, they are bound to find something that suits them. Or a person can choose to just sit back, relax and enjoy what the artist has prepared. It may not be exactly what a person desires but sometimes expending the same effort into finding what's good about something than whats wrong is much better spent. ~sll Simona L. Loberant http://www.geocities.com/loberant "Every now and then go away, even briefly, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer; since to remain constantly at work will cause you to lose power." **Leonardo da Vinci Send your FREE holiday greetings online at Yahoo! Greetings. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 01 17:14:03 -0500 From: Kris Richardson Subject: Re: Out of practice Anthony, you apparently don't like Susan's cd's, nor do you enjoy her live performances. What the hell are you doing here? We've all listened to you whine for several weeks now. So go join the Dar list, and get the fuck off of this one. Kris >This poster raises the only real reason not to do >requests and it really isn't a very good one. I've >seen Susan perform MOVIE OF MY LIFE many times and I >bet she's sung that song 5,000 times in front of >audiences. Singing songs are like bicycles, you >rarely forget how to really do them when you've done >them so often. > >Plus, anyone that saw Dar Williams when she first >started hitting the clubs knows the wonderful charm of >seeing a performer forget her lines. She doesn't do >it so much anymore but it is funny when it happens and >even Dar would laugh about the whole experience. > >Susan's performances have become very scripted over >the last few years, really to her detriment. She once >was more sponteneous and impromptu. Have you noticed >her humorous interludes are getting shorter and less frequent? HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:26:53 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Requests (Part 1) > Performers who won't perform their own songs when > requested politely are really selfish and insecure. That may or may not be so, but I don't think not taking requests is evidence of it. What about audience members who have to hear a certain song? I think they are selfish. > What does it cost them to sing their own song and make > a fan's night? What if the 2 or 3 songs that fans call out are my least favority songs? Why should I suffer at their expense? > Who is paying whom at a concert > anyway? Ever hear of the old expression "He who pays > the piper gets to call the tune?" You are paying for them to do a show, not for them to play specific songs. I wonder how most performers would react if club owners or house concert hosts told them in advance of the show, "For your fee of $2,000, here is the set list you will play." Most performers would probably say, "Forget it," unless the money was really, really good, and they would make a note not to do this too much. > I've been to many concerts large and small where > performers are willing to play requests and I admire > the spontaneous nature of these performances and how > they click with audiences. You are certainly entitled to that opinion. > The artist is not the boss of the concert. 1 I disagree with that. > Two or three requests out of a 20 song show is not > unreasonable. But if there are 100-200 people at a show, why should the requests of two or three people be honored? Maybe all the requests should be put into a hat and drawn at random. > All the reasons I've heard for not > playing requests from artistic considerations to > personal tastes of the artists to set list demands > don't outweigh for one second the desires of a fan to > hear their favorite song performed live for them just > once. Again, why should my favorite song not be played? Why not let the audience choose the entire show? > Imagine going to a restaurant where the chef dictates > what you are going to eat and how you are going to eat > it? Imagine using false analogies in your discussions. Actually, it's a good analogy, but it doesn't support your point. The analogy is that the chef has prepared a menu, or set list. Very rarely would a chef make you a dish that's not on the menu. Your choices at a restaurant are limited by what the restaurant and chef choose to make, not by what they could make with the ingredients they have on hand. >Many musicians treat their fans as nothing but > walking pocketbooks that should be happy to get > whatever they feel like dishing out that evening. A > really bad attitude. Most musicians treat their fans as people who like to hear their music. Most musicians do not look at what they do as "dishing out." There is a bad attitude in the above paragraph, but I think it's that of the writer who uses such negative phrases as "walking pocketbooks" and "dishing out." > As long as the request is polite and for a song the > artist has previously performed or written, what's the > problem? Why not make someone who may have driven > hundreds of miles to the concert and paid good money > for a ticket happy? Why not go to a concert to see what the performer has in store for you? If you come out of a concert unhappy because one particular song did not get played, then you have a problem because you're being disappointed by your own expectations, and you probably should not go to too many concerts because you're liable to be brought down. My view is that I don't like requests, especially called-out ones. I think people who come to a show expecting to hear certain songs or thinking that the whole audience should hear what they want to hear are selfish. I think performers should sing what they want. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:49:13 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Out of practice > This poster raises the only real reason not to do > requests and it really isn't a very good one. I've > seen Susan perform MOVIE OF MY LIFE many times and I > bet she's sung that song 5,000 times in front of > audiences. I agree that Susan could play this song any time she wants. But she didn't want to, and it's a lot easier to say, "I haven't played that in awhile" instead of "No, I'd rather not play that." > Plus, anyone that saw Dar Williams when she first > started hitting the clubs knows the wonderful charm of > seeing a performer forget her lines. She doesn't do > it so much anymore but it is funny when it happens and > even Dar would laugh about the whole experience. From what I read on the Dar list, and from seeing Dar within the last year, she still does it. Some might find it charming some might not. It might be charming for Dar, not charming for Susan. Dar and Susan strike me as very different people. > Susan's performances have become very scripted over > the last few years, really to her detriment. She once > was more sponteneous and impromptu. Have you noticed > her humorous interludes are getting shorter and less frequent? I have noticed that her shows are much more under her control than in the past. Her humorous interludes depend on the circumstances, I've seen them both ways depending on the venue. I have noticed that she is less inclined to encourage audience interaction. This might be because she's more into her music and more focused on it than on banter, or it could be that she got tired of it, or sick of it, or had less than good experiences. Who knows. Sounds like you're not that thrilled with her of late. How many more posts for today until I reach 80%? HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:50:33 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Requests (Part 2) > This abusive and uncaring attitude towards his fans > explains why Joe Jackson went from playing soccer > arenas and stadiums in the 1980s to bowling alley bars > and state fairs today. More likely, it's just the result of his music not being as popular. Many acts that once filled stadiums play small clubs today, and it's not the result of abusive behavior. > Requests depend entirely upon the nature of the show. > A band heavily dependent on special effects (like a > Pink Floyd, etc.) obviously can't do any. There is no > room for extemporaneous performance. If the band is capable of performing a song live, then they certainly are capable of taking a request for it. > If you are seeing a band or performer in a concert > hall or large venue, it is tough to honor requests or > let alone have dozens of people calling out names of > songs constantly. It doesn't work. But audiences call out songs all the time in such venues. > But in clubs, small venues, even house concerts there > is NO EXCUSE for a performer not to solicit requests > at some point during the show or even play some > requests given before they took the stage. The excuse is that the artist doesn't want to, and it's their show, not yours. > A set list is just a rough time guide that should be > abandoned when a fan has a real request that can > easily be honored for them. That's what you think as set list should be. What a set list might also be is a list of songs that an artist has decided to play on a particular night in a particular order for artistic reasons. > No one is suggesting that a singer > should become a "walking juke box" but in a 20 song > show two or three requests are easy to honor. Again, why some peoples' two or three as opposed to other peoples' two or three? Why not assume that everyone at the show has a different song they want to hear? So how do you make everyone happy? Why should anyone in the audience decide what the artist does? Why not let the audience decide whether a song should be played on piano or guitar, or whether we like that arrangement, or whether we like the guy who's playing bass, or whether should be a bass at all, or whether there should or should not be back-up singers? Sounds like a lot of the issues raised here are about who gets to run the show. Guess what? The artist does. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:57:17 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Out of practice > This poster raises the only real reason not to do > requests and it really isn't a very good one. I've > seen Susan perform MOVIE OF MY LIFE many times and I > bet she's sung that song 5,000 times in front of > audiences. I agree that Susan could play this song any time she wants. But she didn't want to, and it's a lot easier to say, "I haven't played that in awhile" instead of "No, I'd rather not play that." > Plus, anyone that saw Dar Williams when she first > started hitting the clubs knows the wonderful charm of > seeing a performer forget her lines. She doesn't do > it so much anymore but it is funny when it happens and > even Dar would laugh about the whole experience. From what I read on the Dar list, and from seeing Dar within the last year, she still does it. Some might find it charming some might not. It might be charming for Dar, not charming for Susan. Dar and Susan strike me as very different people. > Susan's performances have become very scripted over > the last few years, really to her detriment. She once > was more sponteneous and impromptu. Have you noticed > her humorous interludes are getting shorter and less frequent? I have noticed that her shows are much more under her control than in the past. Her humorous interludes depend on the circumstances, I've seen them both ways depending on the venue. I have noticed that she is less inclined to encourage audience interaction. This might be because she's more into her music and more focused on it than on banter, or it could be that she got tired of it, or sick of it, or had less than good experiences. Who knows. Sounds like you're not that thrilled with her of late. How many more posts for today until I reach 80%? HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V5 #285 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message