From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V5 #275 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Tuesday, December 18 2001 Volume 05 : Number 275 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- My point [Anthony Marbuke ] Re: believers-digest V5 #272 [Kathleen Bagby Coate ] Re: My point [Simona Loberant ] Re: My point [Jeff Wasilko ] I think NNF is great ["Sally Green" ] Non-requests ["Sally Green" ] RE: I think NNF is great [Samer Badawi ] please!/requests [charlies@voicenet.com] Re: RE: I think NNF is great [] Re: please!/requests [] Odds and Ends ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Charlie's digs ["Chuck Ellingson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 06:14:17 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Marbuke Subject: My point I have repeatedly attempted to drop this subject after making my point but it has been so widely mischaracterized and criticized I feel compelled to defend it, especially after Simona's downright absurd post of yesterday where she blames me for buying the disc at a concert when it wasn't available anywhere else! All I'm saying to list members is this, pure and sweet, and I'm the only list member doing it. Buy the new CD if you want but realize the "buzz" on this disc in the real world of Susan fans is that it isn't very good. Be prepared to be disappointed like I was, my wife was, her sister was, etc. etc. etc. Even strangers talking at shows are saying the new CD is pretty "lame" and "mediocre" (exact quotes). The unanimous accolades and over-the-top praise you are reading on this list is not representative of what Susan fans in the real world are saying about this CD, a sad fact but a true one. No one wants to dislike this disc, I bought it to enjoy it and I'm disappointed I don't like it. It isn't about $20 wasted on a disc. It is about waiting three years for a new Susan CD and getting what many feel is a half-hearted, poorly produced, weak effort. I'm not trying to tell people not to buy it. I'm not trying to criticize those that like the CD. If you like it, I think that's great. That is what Susan intended, for sure. If it is your #1 pick of the year, that's wonderful and I'm glad Susan is making you happy. All I am saying is that people thinking of buying it are misled by all the positive comments on this list when everyone I speak to about it have few nice things to say about this CD. Yes, I am suspicious that in the complete universe of Susan Werner fans only those on this Internet list have such strong glowing opinions about a disc everyone else thinks, quite frankly, is pretty damn bad. I can only wonder why. Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:22:21 -0600 From: Kathleen Bagby Coate Subject: Re: believers-digest V5 #272 From Opera, to Broadway show-tunes, to funk, to jazz, to rock&roll, to folk-fest staples, to wanna-curl-up-with-a-blanket-and-sleep lullabys, Susan does it all. Now she has gone out on a limb with some down-home country twang in her voice and some good 'ol boys backin' her up. I personally am not a fan of twang. But as I hear the passion in her voice and the obvious longing for freedom, I know that she embodies the very spirit of creating new art that is what keeps her alive. Have you ever been to a concert of hers and made a request? Does she play it? (Not that I've seen). She is true to her desires, and that is ultimately what makes her, in my eyes, the epitome of an artist. Artistic freedom is what all artists crave, and it's what they deserve - but it's not what they've always had. I shudder in horror as I think of the days of "state-regulated art" (such as in Europe or in the USSR) when such things as a single line spoken out of the "preferred" poetic rhythm would start riots in the theatre, or land the artists in jail. As artists gained respect, and as governments and audiences gained courage to let artists try something new, artists began to come out of their underground holes where they had been creating their passions, and to share their passions without fear of prosecution. Audiences and critics would sometimes praise their work, and sometimes reject it. Every artist I've ever known, whether it be theatre, film, music, or fine-art, has experimented with something they haven't done before -- and this is what keeps them breathing. It's that simple. Any artist who stays in the same genre or the same style for their whole lives will stagnate and choke on their own material. And then their fans will wonder why they're choking, because they USED to be so great, and how come they can't just keep doing the same thing year after year. I do not want Susan to choke. I love her for her spirit and her presence in art. She's an artist after all, and her exploratory nature is of the highest caliber I've seen. P.S. I agree with Ron that it's difficult to recommend a CD to a new fan. I usually recommend her Live album, and tell them they MUST go to the "video archives" on her website. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 06:42:17 -0800 (PST) From: Simona Loberant Subject: Re: My point Anthony Marbuke wrote: ...Simona's downright absurd post of yesterday where she blames me for buying the disc at a concert when it wasn't available anywhere else ... I'm not trying to criticize those that like the CD. Hmm.... YES YOU DID CRITICIZE THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO QUALMS WITH THE CD>>>>> YOU CALLED US NAMES! and not nice ones. No one misled you into buying it, certainly not me. And my point is not absurd, if you waited a month or two or ten you could have gotten more opinoins, heard clips on the website, asked your 'friends' about it etc.... and then made a more educated decision on the purchase. No one forced you to buy it at the concert. Most of the list folks still don't own it. You can dislike it all you want, just don't name call those people who do like it. And I do blame you, its buyer beware on ANY album that a person has never heard. I bet that all of us have spent money on long anticipated albums that we ended up hating.... and perhaps most of us are mature enough to just say "well, next time I won't be as quick to make a rash purchase" instead of trying to blame and belittle people that we don't know. You would have not gotten much response if you had just said that you were unhappy with the album, given the reasons and left it at that. But you called those people who don't agree with you some choice names (from shills to fanatics) in addition to that. And you didn't stop. Now you are also lying to the list serv as well and telling them that they were not callled any names. That's quite an insult too. ~simona Simona L. Loberant http://www.geocities.com/loberant "Every now and then go away, even briefly, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer; since to remain constantly at work will cause you to lose power." **Leonardo da Vinci Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctionsfor all of your holiday gifts! HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:30:44 -0500 From: Jeff Wasilko Subject: Re: My point On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 06:14:17AM -0800, Anthony Marbuke wrote: > I have repeatedly attempted to drop this subject after Anthony: I would like to request that you would just drop the subject and not bring it up again. This is like arguing about the color of the sky. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:14:50 -0500 From: "Sally Green" Subject: I think NNF is great I like NNF the best of all of Susan's albums. Just chiming in here. Yes, we all have different opinions, and that's what makes life interesting. - --Sally, not a shill sallyagreen@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/sagreen HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:24:23 -0500 From: "Sally Green" Subject: Non-requests Kathleen wrote: > Have you ever been to a concert of hers and made a request? Does she play > it? (Not that I've seen). She is true to her desires, and that is > ultimately what makes her, in my eyes, the epitome of an artist. At the Ottawa folk festival this guy who is like the Garrison Keillor of Canada whose name escapes me right now, he introduced Susan before her main stage set Sunday night. During his intro, he said that he had been struck by "St. Mary's of Regret" and he really hoped she played it that night. However, he said it in a passive-aggressive manipulative kind of way that was off-putting to me as an audience member. I think it was something like "I hope she plays it. She had better!" When he said it, Susan sort of shook her head or rolled her eyes or something. She had played the song earlier in the weekend at one of the workshops and I just think that it wasn't on the menu for her mainstage performance. So she didn't play it! I was like, go girl! Some artists do play requests and bend over backwards to please their fans, which is great (Dar does that a lot), but Susan's stage presence and personality don't really seem to include that from what I've observed, and I adore that. It's part of her ass-kicking persona. I do love a woman who is in charge! ;) - --Sally, again sallyagreen@hotmail.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:38:47 -0500 From: Samer Badawi Subject: RE: I think NNF is great Personally, I've been trying to force my friends to listen to Susan for years -- always buying armfuls of CDs to pass around. Nobody ever got the subtleties that come through not-so-subtly to those of us who know Susan through her live shows. When he reluctantly accepted yet another new Susan CD from me last month, my good friend Brad didn't know how to make it any clearer: He had his tastes and I had mine; Susan Werner, in his words, "sucked." Of course, I said, "this one's different, Brad. Just give it a spin." His reaction was as revealing as any I've read on this list (and they've all been insightful, including those from the album's detractors): No pretense on this one, no trying to translate quirky facial expressions into production value. NNF is Susan-pure-and-simple, and God help him, Brad likes it. I can't stress what an incredible admission that is from someone who used to book bands in college. Meanwhile, somewhere east of here, a million armfuls of refugees are dining from shallow cauldrons, tempting hunger into rage. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:40:57 US/Eastern From: charlies@voicenet.com Subject: please!/requests Hi all, OK, Anthiny, we get your point, you don't like the album, you were convinced to buy it by people who did like it, your now convinced you've been had by shills on this list. Nothing anyone can say will disabuse you of that notion. Simona, whatever Anthony said, he said. We all read it, we don't need it repeated. I swear sometimes this is like trying to deal with my kids squabbling. "Don't make me pull the car over!" Let's drop it and move on, please. For the sake of my sanity (and my job, which I'm now forced to stop doing to post this to the list) RE: requests I have seen Susan do requests on occasion. That usually involves personal contact prior to the show. I've never seen her do one shouted from the audience, unless it fortuitously happens to already be in the set list. Now, Susan hates to be bugged before a show, so don't go chasing her into the bathroom :-). I told her many years ago, I would never, ever, bother her before a show. I think that's a good idea with most artists. Susan has told me many times her relationship with her fans is different than Dar, and I guess she's the best one to determine what form that relationship takes. Charlie (=}===# someone else who like "Everybody's Talking" a whole lot! - --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Voicenet WebMail. http://www.voicenet.com/webmail/ HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:00:15 -0500 From: Subject: Re: RE: I think NNF is great Samer Badawi wrote: Meanwhile, somewhere east of here, a million armfuls of refugees are dining from shallow cauldrons, tempting hunger into rage. I think Samer has perhaps put us back on course, priority-wise... Charisse HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:15:29 -0500 From: Subject: Re: please!/requests charlies@voicenet.com wrote: "Susan has told me many times her relationship with her fans is different than Dar, and I guess she's the best one to determine what form that relationship takes." My perception of Susan and her music is that she says what she means in her writing. She doesn't go on and on about the why and how. Her gift to us is that we imagine the tale, and relate to the writing. I made a request the first time I saw Susan back in 95 or 96. I asked between sets if she would do St. Mary's, and she did. But it was probably in the set list. I'm sure I'm wading into very deep water here, but as a musician and writer, there are nights you perform, and there are nights when you are totally a pawn of your muse. You can be the show, or you just let the music come through you. You can take requests, or you let the music play you. I've seen Susan in both modes. It is a fine line - Susan never tells me more than I need to know in a song - just enough so that I can relate. That is one of the reasons I love her writing so much more than Dar and some of the others. (Be warned - I will NOT debate anyone on Dar). Charisse HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:42:23 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Odds and Ends It's good to know that I'm not in "the real world of Susan Werner fans." I like being in the cacoon of Susan cult followers. I never liked those fans out in the "real world." My family has tried to kidnap me but so far they have been unsuccessful. .. I was listening to a CD called New Non-Fiction in the car yesterday and I really like it. I'm pretty sure I'm not misleading anyone because I'm pretty sure most of you have the CD. Little Yellow House, when you think about it is very cool. How can you have a "little" house with "too many rooms?" I guess if you're the only one in it... I noticed that when I put the CD on in the car, other cars were doing everything they could to get away from me. Great way to clear traffic from your path. Hopefully, we can get some Army surplus flak jackets and steel-toed boots to avoid being trampled by folks running from New Non-Fiction. I know a high school track coach who is thinking of playing the CD into headphones worn by his runners so they will run faster... Taking requests: When I first got on this list someone was asking how they could get Susan to do a certain song. I suggested that I didn't think Susan generally took requests at shows. I was soundly rebuked by other list members. But really, Susan generally doesn't take requests. She did a very informal show at a tea house once, and during intermission she went around to each table with a pad and pencil and wrote down requests, but generally she does what she wants....and I like it that way... Personally, I HATE requests. I hate to go to shows where people are yelling out song titles. Some people have several song titles to yell out. The show is already in their mind before they get there. Some of these people might as well put a set list on stage before the show begins. My view is that the show is not about YOU and your particular requests. It's about what the performer wants to present. If you want to hear a certain song, play the CD. Otherwise, sit back and see what happens. I think one time Cheryl Wheeler made a remark about "I get to pick the songs. That's why I'm up here and you're not.".... Speaking of rebuke, is Marbuke some sort of contraction based on mar and rebuke? There is a great movie from the early 70s called "Smile," which is a spoof on beauty pageants. In one scene one of the mothers speaks to a psychiatrist named Dr. Malvert. That was the funniest name for a shrink I ever heard - being of course a contraction. I still remember that scene 25 years later. Pretty good for a zombie, don't you think?... HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:42:54 -0600 From: "Chuck Ellingson" Subject: Re: Charlie's digs eunics wearin' tunics!?! C'mon, you guys, I'm laughin' so hard, I'm cryin!!! heavenly peace, Chuck >From: PBCoustic@aol.com >To: believers@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Charlie's digs >Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:04:05 EST > >In a message dated 12/17/01 4:37:42 PM Central Standard Time, >charlies_vg@yahoo.com writes: > > > > Or perhaps you noticed my 3000 square foot middle > > eastern tent down on the flat, adorned with priceless > > Persian rugs and guarded by two huge eunics with +3 hp > > scimitars > >Wioohooo, Charlie!!! This must be where Susan got the idea for >"Nefertiti's >Dream"... And would the eunics (sic) be wearing tunics???? Let's hope >the >evil hordes have less than 3hp strength each... roll them dice! > >PB > >HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org >Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs >http://worldcafecds.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V5 #275 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message