From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V5 #273 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Monday, December 17 2001 Volume 05 : Number 273 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- Re: Shills ["Richard Hill" ] Honest opinion [Anthony Marbuke ] Re: Honest opinion [Simona Loberant ] Opinions ["David S. Kaskela" ] Re: Honest opinion ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Opinions ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Opinions [] here I am (non-susiewerner content) [Kellie Lin Knott ] Shillin' for Kellie Lin ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Re: Opinions ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: likes and dislikes [PBCoustic@aol.com] Re: warmth [PBCoustic@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:41:15 -0600 From: "Richard Hill" Subject: Re: Shills Having just received the latest digest: Anthony says: <> As far as I know, only ONE list member has said that _new non-fiction_ is his pick as "#1" disc of the year (tied with another), and that list member is me. Am I a "shill" for Ms. Werner? While I do own Susan's full catalog of discs, I am not a 'regular' on this list. I've only caught Susan in concert twice, ever. Most recently in September of 1999. For several years now, I have drawn up my year-end list of favorites-of-the-year. It's fun to do, and I enjoy reading other's opinions of their faves. (_Time Between Trains_ was "#4" on my 1998 list). I drew up this year's list about two-and-a-half weeks before I posted it anywhere. In that time before I posted it, I did tweak it very slightly, but my picks at "#1" remained the same. I've never posted this list on "believers" before, and only did so this time because of that "#1" pick (i.e. NOT the other way around / NOT: "Susan is "#1" because this is going on her list"). I agree with others that "Everybody's Talking" didn't quite work. I think it was a good idea to experiment a bit, and I give any artist credit for stretching and not just doing the same-old, but I don't think it quite worked on "ET". However, as a whole, _new non-fiction_ is my favorite disc of Susan's. Anthony, I simply disagree with you. I like the new disc very much, and I see no reason to apologize for that. ~Richard Hill HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 06:19:50 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Marbuke Subject: Honest opinion The only people on this list stirring up trouble are those that simply cannot accept ideas contrary to their own of any kind. My points are simple: 1. The new CD is not being universally received as brilliant and genius and Best of the Year by Susan fans. In fact, the only fans who seem to like it are those posting on this list. Everyone else I have spoken to about the new CD, especially the avid and long-term Susan fans I know and meet, don't like this new release at all for the same reasons I do. Poor songs and cheap production. 2. People, including me, are being misled into buying this CD by postings to this list. I believed you people when you said this disc was great. I think posters to this list should understand the power of their words and realize that fans are spending money based on what they read here and many times are not happy with their purchase. 3. The fact that some listers are writing such glowing recommendations about this CD while everyone else seems to be running from this disc is a fact I find quite curious and suspicious. The fact that any dissent on the subject like mine is also harshly criticized feeds these suspicions. Isn't free speech about debate? I'm not trying to change your minds just tell you what's on mine. Do I think that Susan has hired people to shill on this list for her? No. But I do think that people on this list take fan worship to a ridiculous extreme and shill for her voluntarily, wanting her to do well, wanting her to sell lots of CDs and tour tickets and will do what it takes to make sure that happens. One lister described it as being "protective" of Susan. Is that really a fan's job? If we really want to help Susan we should be honest with her and tell her how we feel about this new CD, good and bad. This is a forum for discussing Susan's music. Her new CD is not very good (my opinion) and I should have a right to say so without criticism. I'm sad having to say that. I wanted to like it especially since I thought her last two CDs were brilliant. I'm not telling anyone not to like it. If you think it's great, say so. But don't try to mislead people into thinking that this CD is being universally acclaimed by fans when in reality the reverse is true. Other than people posting on this list, I haven't spoken to a single Susan fan who likes it. My intention is not to start an argument. It is to make a point and then move on. The best part of this list is people reporting on the shows they go to and I wish there was more of that than this senseless "I think these are the best CDs of the year" chatter. Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 06:54:58 -0800 (PST) From: Simona Loberant Subject: Re: Honest opinion Hey, here's an honest opinion! Some of us like the CD. My honest opinion is that I do like it regardless of whether or not anyone else does or not! You can totally be brutally honest and say you dislike it. Personally I think its good to hear what people do and don't like. I wish I had heard some more negative reviews of Out There Live. I regret that purchase, but I don't blame it on the dar-list. So please don't blame the listers for your unwanted purchase. When you started complaining about the CD most of us had yet to buy it. And you could have waited till there were clips on SW's website like there are for the other CDs (I will never understand the need for someone to HAVE TO see a movie or buy a CD on its release date.... patience, after all, is a virtue) But, do not insult those of us who do not agree with you. No one posted saying "If you don't like the CD then you are stupid" yet you feel the need to say "if you do like the CD then you are an extreme fanatic" That's totally unfair and uncalled for. Its an outright insult to the people of this list and to their intellegence. The people I have met via this list are all very intelligent and musically inclined and fully capable of making their own decisions. They don't need other listers or you to tell them what to like. So, how about next time you wait before you buy and make a more educated decision without having to relie on us shills for an opinion. That way you won't feel like you had been cheated and decieved by us listers. ~sll Simona L. Loberant http://www.geocities.com/loberant "Every now and then go away, even briefly, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer; since to remain constantly at work will cause you to lose power." **Leonardo da Vinci Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctionsfor all of your holiday gifts! HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:40:54 -0500 From: "David S. Kaskela" Subject: Opinions Hi all- Happy holidays to all on the list- especially those I'm lucky enough to know personally. Intelligent and thoughtful people, one and all! Everybody is entitled to an opinion! At this point I think we all understand Anthony's. I wasn't sure after the first three or four posts, but I think I get it now. Anthony doesn't like it. Thanks for your opinion! I happen to like NNF. I bought seven copies, all graciously signed and personalized,as gifts. Everyone I gave them to, liked them. But thats their opinion! And you know what they say... "Opinions are like a-------! Everybody has one." Since I don't need to be hammered over the head again and again by someone else's I will now place any further messages from Anthony in the trash where I feel they belong... But hey- that's just my opinion! Feel free to delete! Or even disagree!! And if you're still reading- have a safe and happy holiday! Dave HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:09:40 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Honest opinion > My points are simple: > > 1. .... Everyone else I have > spoken to about the new CD, especially the avid and > long-term Susan fans I know and meet, don't like this > new release at all for the same reasons I do. Poor > songs and cheap production. Where are all these friends and acquaintences of yours, Tony? Let's hear from them. So far all we have is your second-hand report about what "people are saying off list." Poor songs? Not at all. If you loved the previous two albums I don't see how you can say that the songs on the new CD are "poor" in terms of the writing and construction. Cheap production? Do you mean "cheap sounding?" I can see how you might not like the sound of some songs or the CD generally, but I'm not sure what you mean by "cheap production," or whether you have any evidence that the production was in fact "cheap" as in not enough money was spent. > 2. People, including me, are being misled into buying > this CD by postings to this list. I believed you > people when you said this disc was great. I think > posters to this list should understand the power of > their words and realize that fans are spending money > based on what they read here and many times are not > happy with their purchase. Tony, you seem a lot more upset than $16 would seem to justify, and, as you originally suggested, you can sell it to reduce the impact of your great loss. Again, where are all these other people who were duped? Let them come forward. You imply that anyone who said this CD was great was intentionally misleading you and others. Certainly no one who liked the CD and said so was trying to mislead anyone. If someone raved about a CD and I went and bought it and didn't like it, I would be disappointed, and I would take that into consideration in evaluating that person's recommendations in the future, but I certainly wouldn't be angry or feel deceived. I think your reaction is a bit much. > 3. The fact that some listers are writing such > glowing recommendations about this CD while everyone > else seems to be running from this disc is a fact I > find quite curious and suspicious. The fact that any > dissent on the subject like mine is also harshly > criticized feeds these suspicions. Again, Tony, where's the evidence that everyone else is running from this CD? When you use the word "suspicious" to describe this alleged phenomenon you are implying some kind of sinister conspiracy. What is your deal? I have found that dissent on any subject on these folk lists is harshly criticized. It's just part of the territory. There are a lot of people in the folk community who don't seem to like conflict. So what? That is not evidence of anything "suspicious," only that you have misread your audience. > But I do think that people on > this list take fan worship to a ridiculous extreme and > shill for her voluntarily, wanting her to do well, > wanting her to sell lots of CDs and tour tickets and > will do what it takes to make sure that happens. I think you're taking a lot of things to a ridiculous extreme, Tony, including your reaction to having bought a CD that you don't like and your analysis of people on this list. Did you happen to miss the recent discussions about Susan's management and whether it was doing what it should to further her career? That was anything but "fan worship" and there was implicit, if not overt, criticism of Susan in all that. The people on this list who said they liked the CD had no reason to share that information other than to give their honest reactions. No one on this list as far as I have ever seen has any desire to "do what it takes" to make sure Susan sells lots of CDs and tickets. But let's face facts: this is a Susan Werner fan list. One might expect that people here would like Susan's work and would want to share their reactions. > One lister described it as being "protective" of Susan. > Is that really a fan's job? If we really want to help > Susan we should be honest with her and tell her how we > feel about this new CD, good and bad. I think you are paraphrasing me here. I was just describing a phenomenon that people do not want to be hurtful. I find your comment about what "a fan's job is" amusing only because we were told by at least one lister awhile back that our job was only to enjoy the music and not to be concerned with Susan's management or how it functioned. A "fan's job" is whatever the fan wants it to be. I agree that being "protective" is not necessarily what a "fan's job" is. All in all, Anthony, I think your reaction to the CD and to the list is a bit over the top. So what / who are you shiling for? HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:14:35 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Opinions > I happen to like NNF. I bought seven copies, all graciously signed and > personalized,as gifts. Everyone I gave them to, liked them. But thats their > opinion! I think this proves, David, that you are part of the conspiracy to dupe the unwitting into buying a bad CD. The people you gave them to are either (1) part of the conspiracy; (2) afraid to tell you the truth or (3) fictional characters. Maybe when you get a few more years under your belt you will understand that you do not need to engage in such behavior to achieve personal satisfaction. > And if you're still reading- have a safe and happy holiday! > Dave And happy birthday to you and your wife!! HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:34:15 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Opinions Come on everyone, let's not start another flame war. We all now understand that Tony doesn't like NNF, and is peeved that he bought it. It is not my favorite Werner offering, however, seeing her as infrequently as I do out here in Kansas, I will buy her CDs just to see what she's up to. That makes me neither stupid nor smart, but interested. All artists go through periods where their music changes. Susan's had a pretty hectic touring schedule, more so than when she's produced other CDs, and this may have caused this CD to be a little less spectacular than others (IMHO). Still at the end of the day, a Susan Werner recording will still be superior to most of what's going on out there. Please, let's not go back to where we were a few months ago with the acrimonius mail - life's too short. Keep 9/11/01 on your radar and decide whether this is such a huge deal to get bent out of shape over. Charisse HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:35:25 -0600 From: Kellie Lin Knott Subject: here I am (non-susiewerner content) Hi! seems there are a few people who have been looking for me - on and off list, so here's my email address. i'm going home to MN on friday to spend time with family and friends (and play a house concert too)! looking forward to all of it. i hope all of you have a warm, wonderful holiday! stay well! best - kellie lin http://www.folkrocks.com/Profiles/KellieLinKnott.html klknott@earthlink.net HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:41:58 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Re: Opinions David, I didn't mean for you to take that message personally! I see another major hoo-haa starting and wanted to make a plea for peace. Charisse HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:49:18 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Shillin' for Kellie Lin > seems there are a few people who have been looking for me - on and off list, > so here's my email address. i'm going home to MN on friday to spend time > with family and friends (and play a house concert too)! looking forward to > all of it. i hope all of you have a warm, wonderful holiday! stay well! > best - kellie lin > http://www.folkrocks.com/Profiles/KellieLinKnott.html I have heard a few songs of Kellie Lin's and if I were in Minnesota I would definitely go ! She has a great voice ! (KL - I expect payment we agreed upon.) HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:57:06 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Re: Opinions > I didn't mean for you to take that message personally! I see another major hoo-haa starting and wanted to make a plea for peace. Hey! I like major hoo-haas. So fellow hoo-haa-ers, hoo-haa away ! "It's only words and words are all I have to take your heart away...." HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:59:01 EST From: PBCoustic@aol.com Subject: Re: likes and dislikes NNF is not my most favorite CD, and it's not my least favorite CD... and some songs are new favorites, and some aren't... just like every other CD or record I've ever purchased in my ENTIRE LIFE... And I'll still recommend it to people, simply due to Susan's talent and friendship... If that's "shilling", so be it.... but having one's own particular likes and dislikes doesn't make everyone else wrong... Unless you're Julius Caesar... Paul << "Bring music to someone's life - be an organ donor!" >> HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:04:50 EST From: PBCoustic@aol.com Subject: Re: warmth In a message dated 12/17/01 11:27:26 AM Central Standard Time, klknott@earthlink.net writes: > . i hope all of you have a warm, wonderful holiday! stay well! > Better stay the hell outta Minnesota, then, Kel!!!!!!!!! PB [ Dallas, where there have been a whopping three recorded instances of a "white christmas".... :^( ] << "Bring music to someone's life - be an organ donor!" >> HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V5 #273 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message