From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V5 #272 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Monday, December 17 2001 Volume 05 : Number 272 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- Re: Mountain Stage ["Tim Dunleavy" ] Re: Mountain Stage ["Charisse D. Lowe" ] looking for kellie l [Simona Loberant ] looking for kellie lynn [Simona Loberant ] Shills [Anthony Marbuke ] Re: Shills ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Shills [Simona Loberant ] Re: Shills [meredith ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 08:53:32 -0500 From: "Tim Dunleavy" Subject: Re: Mountain Stage The show ran last night here in Philadelphia. Here's the song list: Blue Guitar Misery & Happiness Barbed Wire Boys I Can't Be New May I Suggest Susan appears about 25-30 minutes into the show, right after Fred Eaglesmith. Host Larry Groce introduced her with unusually high praise, saying that Susan "ranks with Richard Thompson as one of our finest songwriters." Regarding NNF, he stated "Her new album will be out in February." Hmm... that's the first time I've heard that! The Mountain Stage Band backed her discreetly and tastefully on the first three songs, adding touches of fiddle and slide guitar on "Misery" and an electric guitar solo on "BWB." The audience response was polite at first-- there was only scattered laughter on her "Happiness also looks down your shirt" joke-- but there was *really* loud cheering and applause on her piano songs. She said "BWB" was suggested by another guest on the show, Pierce Pettis, who told her there weren't enough songs about Iowa. At the end of the show, they brought the whole cast out to sing Hank Williams' "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry." Alas, the broadcast ended and faded out before Susan's verse. So, if you're looking to hear a great performance, or at least a recording of "I Can't Be New," get out your tape recorders! - -Tim - ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Hill > Early tomorrow morning on WFUV http://www.wfuv.org/ (and other = > times/stations elsewhere): > > SUNDAY, DECEMBER 16=20 > 6-8 AM, Mountain Stage: Junior Brown, Pierce Pettis, Fred Eaglesmith = > and Susan Werner in live performance from West Virginia.=20 > > That's 6-8 AM Eastern, of course. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 08:36:30 -0600 From: "Charisse D. Lowe" Subject: Re: Mountain Stage One of the things I love about this list (and always have), is the great reporting we get from fans wherever Susan happens to be. Those of us who can't see her perform often really appreciate the updates - keeps us somewhat connected. Charisse in Wichita - -----Original Message----- From: Tim Dunleavy To: believers@smoe.org Date: Sunday, December 16, 2001 7:52 AM Subject: Re: Mountain Stage >The show ran last night here in Philadelphia. Here's the song list: > >Blue Guitar >Misery & Happiness >Barbed Wire Boys >I Can't Be New >May I Suggest > >Susan appears about 25-30 minutes into the show, right after Fred >Eaglesmith. Host Larry Groce introduced her with unusually high praise, >saying that Susan "ranks with Richard Thompson as one of our finest >songwriters." > >Regarding NNF, he stated "Her new album will be out in February." Hmm... >that's the first time I've heard that! > >The Mountain Stage Band backed her discreetly and tastefully on the first >three songs, adding touches of fiddle and slide guitar on "Misery" and an >electric guitar solo on "BWB." The audience response was polite at first-- >there was only scattered laughter on her "Happiness also looks down your >shirt" joke-- but there was *really* loud cheering and applause on her piano >songs. She said "BWB" was suggested by another guest on the show, Pierce >Pettis, who told her there weren't enough songs about Iowa. > >At the end of the show, they brought the whole cast out to sing Hank >Williams' "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry." Alas, the broadcast ended and faded >out before Susan's verse. > >So, if you're looking to hear a great performance, or at least a recording >of "I Can't Be New," get out your tape recorders! > >-Tim > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Richard Hill >> Early tomorrow morning on WFUV http://www.wfuv.org/ (and other = >> times/stations elsewhere): >> >> SUNDAY, DECEMBER 16=20 >> 6-8 AM, Mountain Stage: Junior Brown, Pierce Pettis, Fred Eaglesmith = >> and Susan Werner in live performance from West Virginia.=20 >> >> That's 6-8 AM Eastern, of course. > >HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org >Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs >http://worldcafecds.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 08:54:03 -0800 (PST) From: Simona Loberant Subject: looking for kellie l Simona L. Loberant http://www.geocities.com/loberant "Every now and then go away, even briefly, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer; since to remain constantly at work will cause you to lose power." **Leonardo da Vinci Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctionsfor all of your holiday gifts! HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 08:54:59 -0800 (PST) From: Simona Loberant Subject: looking for kellie lynn sorry for the previuos blank message (too fast on that enter button) kellie lynn... I lost your email and wanted to thank you for the mail I got this week! email me off list, thanks! ~simona Simona L. Loberant http://www.geocities.com/loberant "Every now and then go away, even briefly, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer; since to remain constantly at work will cause you to lose power." **Leonardo da Vinci Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctionsfor all of your holiday gifts! HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 14:52:57 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Marbuke Subject: Shills I'm sorry but I really feel I need to comment on something that probably will be controversial. I've made my disappointment with Susan's new CD well known and I'm not going to rehash that argument or my reasoning here. But virtually every Susan fan I have spoken to off this list has nothing good to say about this new CD, from my wife who has been a Susan fan longer than me, to her sister, to coworkers, even strangers at two recent shows. The sentiment that "this CD is not as good as her two previous ones" is so constant I know I'm not "misguided" as someone here on this list asserted. Then why are list members pushing this disc as genius and #1 CD of the year when so many others are unhappy with it, even going so far as to describe it as "mediocre" and "bland"? One fan at a show that my sister-in-law attended it described this disc as "What happened to Susan? Did she start taking drugs?" I smell shills on this list. Don't email me with your hate. I won't reply anyway. But an honest discussion about this CD without all the hyperbolic hype would be nice for a change. Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:30:54 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Shills > I smell shills on this list. I don't know what you're smelling, but I'm no shill. I really like Tin Angel because it's Susan the way we hear her at her shows. That's what I prefer. It is true that Susan's last 3 CDs are not what we hear live, and now that I think about it, that seems unusual to me. It seems that most artists put on CDs what they present live. It seems that that is what audiences want and expect. I don't know why Susan doesn't. Probably the negative comments about the new CD result from the dissonance between what people expect and want from Susan and what she puts on her CDs. I like the new CD for what it is, but I would prefer more of what I would hear at a show. If I were trying to interest someone in Susan, if I gave them any of the last 3 CDs, I would preface by saying, "This is not what she sounds like live. You really have to see her live." Now on to the shill question. A shill is someone who is in cahoots with a someone else. A shill would be someone who works for Susan or whom Susan or her management asked to post positive reviews of Susan's work. In that sense, I think I can safely say that there are no shills on the list. If by the word shill you mean people who would not say anything negative about Susan's work (which is not really a shill), then, yes, certainly I think most of us would be reluctant to publicly criticize Susan's work. Most of us on the list are big supporters of Susan and her career and would not want to hurt her, even if we didn't like a CD or performance. I think that's part of the fact that there's a certain intimacy to this list, and other folk lists, and most of us would not want to hurt anyone in an intimate setting. Awhile back I criticized an artist on this list. Later I found out that the artist is actually a subscriber to the list and was hurt by what I said. I felt bad about that, because although I was stating my true reactions at the time, it was not my intent or desire to hurt anyone. (Actually, I have come to like that artist.) Not that I think there's anything wrong with anyone posting negative opinions if they so choose. It's just that for a lot of us it would be like criticizing a friend in a small gathering among friends. Although it's not shilling, I would agree that most of us would be reluctant to flat out criticize Susan publicly even if we really didn't like something she did. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:15:42 -0800 (PST) From: Simona Loberant Subject: Re: Shills hey, if you don't like the cd, then don't buy it. Like Ron, I personally love Live at Tin Angel. And I talked to susan last week and expressed that the new CD definately had a different sound. Her answer was that she meant it that way and was really happy with how it turned out. My only personal critism was that it could have had a couple more songs on it and that everybody's talking is a weird sounding song. What I wonder is why you feel the need to not only start new threads continuously on how much you dislike the CD but why you continue to insult those people who do. So far being called shills as well as it being implied that some of us are too brainless to know what's good and what's not and will blindly love whatever our favorite artists put out is uncalled for. You've done it before, I assume you will do it again Anthony. But, my question is why? are you trying to start a fight? If you really truly want to get rid of your CD (that I am sure you felt you were tricked into buying by us shills) then please put it on ebay. Tell us the bid number and perhaps someone out there who wants a cheaper copy to give to a friend or to have in their car or something will buy it off of you. ~simona Simona L. Loberant http://www.geocities.com/loberant "Every now and then go away, even briefly, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer; since to remain constantly at work will cause you to lose power." **Leonardo da Vinci Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctionsfor all of your holiday gifts! HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:26:05 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: Shills Hi, Hey Anthony, your e-dress didn't used to be rjabalos@aol.com, did it? But seriously ... As hard as it may be for you to believe, Anthony, some of us do have brains, are not in the employ of Susan Werner, Inc., and still happen to like _New Non Fiction_. I, for one, wouldn't be afraid to say it if I didn't, either. I find _Time Between Trains_ unlistenable, and have stated so publicly (see http://www.smoe.org/meth/1998.html -- scroll down to the "Disappointments Of The Year" section). I say I think _New Non Fiction_ is her best album so far because I think it is. I'm curious as to why you feel the need to continue to try to stir up flamewars on this list because of your personal dislike of the album, but I know you're not going to reply so I'm not going to ask the question. BTW, Susan doesn't surround herself with "yes men". (Anyone who has ever met Jane will know this.) She wants to know what people think, pro or con. The idea that she would ask people to post laudable reviews on the list is simply ludicrous. Ron responded: >If by the word shill you mean people who >would not say anything negative about Susan's work (which is not really a >shill), >then, yes, certainly I think most of us would be reluctant to publicly >criticize >Susan's work. Most of us on the list are big supporters of Susan and her >career and >would not want to hurt her, even if we didn't like a CD or performance. This attitude is precisely why most artists who are interested in what their fans have to say about their work do not make it known when they are subscribed to a mailing list. From what I've seen, when artists are active participants in their own fans' lists, they get no constructive criticism whatsoever. People are generally afraid to make their opinion known unless it's droolingly positive. Constructive criticism is not a bad thing -- but note the term "constructive". Saying "my god, this album is a piece of crap" isn't going to do anybody any good. But saying "Y'know, I think this track would've worked better if you had done x instead of y" might give the artist food for thought, and they'll welcome your opinion next time. To give a real-world example: my all-time favorite musical artist is Veda Hille. (Yes, she's even higher in the pantheon than Susan -- blasphemy!!) A couple years back, she released an album full of songs that I absolutely loved when I heard her perform them live -- but on the CD, she had worked with an electronic new-music artist who dripped what I call "bleeps and bloops" all over it and greatly diminished my opinion of the album. (The disc has since grown on me, but I would still prefer to hear the songs without all the bleeps and bloops.) I made no secret of my opinion of the disc, both on the fan mailing list I run and when speaking with Veda directly. I didn't just say "that sucks", but I backed up my opinion with specifics as to why the electronics didn't do anything for me. Earlier this year, Veda started working with the electronic new-music artist on a new project, and based on what I'd said in the past she e-mailed me to warn me that I might not like it. :) ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V5 #272 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message