From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V5 #260 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Sunday, December 2 2001 Volume 05 : Number 260 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- New CD & Price [Anthony Marbuke ] Re: New CD & Price ["Charisse D. Lowe" ] Re: New CD & Price ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: New CD & Price [meredith ] Birchmere show [Sherlyn Koo ] Re: New CD & Price ["Charisse D. Lowe" ] Re: Birchmere show ["Ron Rosen" ] Ram's Head [Jonie Lehmann ] Re: New CD & Price [Leslie Dreyer Kalra ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 07:51:51 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Marbuke Subject: New CD & Price This is my last post on this subject. I'm tired of all the hateful email by members of this list being sent to me privately. Apparently you can freely discuss Susan Werner and her music if you only have positive things to say.... My only point was this. I paid nearly $20 for Susan's new CD, which I regard as a very high price compared to what I normally pay for discs, based on the nearly universal acclaim posted here on this list. Everybody was writing how great this new CD was, top ten of the year, her breakout CD, all this kind of stuff. I am a huge Susan fan after Straight Girls and Time Between Trains and saw her many times live in the years between 1995-2001. My opinion, yes my opinion but also shared by some who have privately emailed me, is that this new CD of hers is not just a bad Susan CD (which would still be better than most CDs) but a Bad CD, period. Why do I (we!) feel this way? The production is cheap, the songs are weak, there is none of the emotional power or clever humor of the past CDs. There just doesn't seem a lot of thought or effort was put into making this CD, it seems rushed or slopped together, not very well planned on any level which is obvious when you compare it to her previous two releases. If you like this CD, great. I'm happy for you. But I think the idea that Susan can do no wrong is misplaced idol worship. I think that some posters on this list would applaud a CD of her reading the yellow pages as "genius, unique, brilliant." I'm disappointed in this CD not just because it took her three years to release it but because it is not representative of the great talent she is. I hope her next CD is better planned and executed. Finally, I think all list members who are contemplating a purchase of this CD should have a consensus of opinions about it to make an informed decision. $20 is a lot of money to some people especially in these tough economic times. Comments positive and negative should be not only welcome but encouraged as part of a free debate on this subject. Those that attempt through intimidation and insults to silence dissenters for whatever reason do Susan, list members, and free speech a disservice. Tony Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:15:57 -0500 From: "Charisse D. Lowe" Subject: Re: New CD & Price I warned Tony about the off-list mail....Several of us got ugly email from people on this list who profess to be Susan fans - and we only criticized her management, not Susan! . If you are really a fan, you should be vocal about her work in an objective and civilized manner. Tony's critique was mindful of both categories. Criticism both positive and negative helps an artist grow. Otherwise you get an 'emperor's new clothes' scenario going, and the artist doesn't mature. There is a huge difference between being a fan and being a cultist. Cultists cannot abide criticism of their object of adoration. ( I once watched a documentary on Tori Amos' fans, and I found them to be quite scary...) Real fans want their artist to grow and expand their talent. Let's not get confused. Charisse - -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Marbuke To: believers@smoe.org Date: Sunday, December 02, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: New CD & Price >This is my last post on this subject. I'm tired of >all the hateful email by members of this list being >sent to me privately. Apparently you can freely >discuss Susan Werner and her music if you only have >positive things to say.... > >My only point was this. I paid nearly $20 for Susan's >new CD, which I regard as a very high price compared >to what I normally pay for discs, based on the nearly >universal acclaim posted here on this list. Everybody >was writing how great this new CD was, top ten of the >year, her breakout CD, all this kind of stuff. I am a >huge Susan fan after Straight Girls and Time Between >Trains and saw her many times live in the years >between 1995-2001. > >My opinion, yes my opinion but also shared by some who >have privately emailed me, is that this new CD of hers >is not just a bad Susan CD (which would still be >better than most CDs) but a Bad CD, period. > >Why do I (we!) feel this way? The production is >cheap, the songs are weak, there is none of the >emotional power or clever humor of the past CDs. >There just doesn't seem a lot of thought or effort was >put into making this CD, it seems rushed or slopped >together, not very well planned on any level which is >obvious when you compare it to her previous two >releases. > >If you like this CD, great. I'm happy for you. But I >think the idea that Susan can do no wrong is misplaced >idol worship. I think that some posters on this list >would applaud a CD of her reading the yellow pages as >"genius, unique, brilliant." > >I'm disappointed in this CD not just because it took >her three years to release it but because it is not >representative of the great talent she is. I hope her >next CD is better planned and executed. > >Finally, I think all list members who are >contemplating a purchase of this CD should have a >consensus of opinions about it to make an informed >decision. $20 is a lot of money to some people >especially in these tough economic times. Comments >positive and negative should be not only welcome but >encouraged as part of a free debate on this subject. >Those that attempt through intimidation and insults to >silence dissenters for whatever reason do Susan, list >members, and free speech a disservice. > >Tony >Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. >http://shopping.yahoo.com > >HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org >Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs >http://worldcafecds.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 08:16:14 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: New CD & Price Tony: I am really sorry you are getting nasty email on this subject. You are certainly entitled to your opinion on the quality of the CD, and I haven't and wouldn't think of questioning it. Since you are a Susan fan, you obviously do not have an axe to grind. The only questions I raised with you were about price, but again, you are entitled to your opinion. I am really surprised that members of this list would attack you privately. I think it's outrageous for members of this list to send you private hostile emails. I have been and remain an advocate of free speech on these lists, and I don't think it's appropriate to try to intimidate anyone into not expressing their opinions. We recently had a rather heated debate about Susan's management and whether it was being as effective in her behalf as it could. I understand that there were nasty private emails on that matter as well. If people have something to say in a debate, they should say it publicly and without ad hominem attacks. Ron HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 11:44:57 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: New CD & Price Hi, Tony, I'm truly horrified that you've been getting hateful emails off-list about your posts. Even though I disagree completely with everything you've said (I find _New Non Fiction_ to be Susan's strongest effort, which is a HUGE relief compared to _Time Between Trains_, which is unlistenable in my opinion (if I wanted to listen to Shawn Colvin I'd buy a Shawn Colvin CD); and $16 is only $1 more than the usual price for CDs produced independently by artists in the contemporary folk genre, so there's no fleecing going on at all despite what anyone might think), I have to say that all opinions should be allowed to be freely expressed in this public forum. If you have something to say, say it here. If you feel you have to hide what you're going to say by sending it privately, take a minute to think about why that is. Charisse responded: >There is a huge difference between being a fan and being a cultist. >Cultists cannot abide criticism of their object of adoration. ( I once >watched a documentary on Tori Amos' fans, and I found them to be quite >scary...) As a Tori Amos fan, I feel obligated to stand up and say We're Not All Like That!!! I assume you're referring to the MTV "Fanatic" episode about Torifans, and MTV was deliberately seeking the scariest specimens they could find. But I digress. I have been involved in music fandom for many years, and more recently in media fandom (_Xena_, _Buffy_, etc.), plus I grew up experiencing SF fandom from the edges. The one thing that has become crystal clear to me is that fandom is the same no matter what the object of the fans' adoration. Be it a musician, a television show, or whatever, there are degrees amongst the fans. There are the people who you termed "cultists", which unfortunately tend to get the bulk of the attention and therefore become the stereotype for all fans; but there are also the people who just really admire the work of whatever artist they're following, and can keep an appropriate perspective. The cultists tend to fly off the handle whenever something negative is mentioned about their favorite musician/show/actor/whatever, because they have lost (or never had) that perspective. >Real fans want their artist to grow and expand their talent. Let's >not get confused. You hit it right on the head there. I'm not denying that when I read a negative review of an album I consider to be superlative I go, "What the hell are they thinking?!?" at first ... but then reason kicks in and I remember that not everyone hears something the same way, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Too often, people forget that little detail. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 03:48:05 +1100 (EST) From: Sherlyn Koo Subject: Birchmere show Hey folks, Unfortunately I couldn't make it to either the Rockford or Annapolis shows. Believe me though, I really tried! I did, however, manage to badger my friend into accompanying me down to the Birchmere in Alexandria VA last night. This'll be my last show for a while, as I'm heading back to Australia in a couple of weeks and I don't know when I'll be back this way again (sigh). Due to traffic on I95 we were a little late getting to the venue and missed almost all of Erin McKeown's set. Doh. The couple of songs we caught were a lot of fun though. Susan's set was excellent - she looked and sounded great and was also pretty talkative. At one point she was ranting about daylight savings vs non-daylight savings time, which was pretty funny ("Cows don't care what time it is. Cows have no vote!"). There was also some amusing back-and- forth with the audience. The setlist itself was pretty standard - nothing too off-the-wall and, saddest of all, no "La Vie en Rose". But it was definitely a good, solid Werner show. During the show Susan announced that she'd just been booked to do two shows at the Barns of Wolftrap at the start of April. The first show will be a regular piano-n-guitar show but the second will be piano only, featuring the romantic song cycle. "The debut of Susie Chanteusie" were her exact words I think. That'll be one to see! Except that it's the same night as the disappear fear reunion show at the Birchmere - oh no. Lucky for me, I'll be back home in Australia and won't be forced to make such a heartbreaking choice. I guess distance does have its advantages once in a while... We got to talk to both Susan and Jane for a little bit after the show. I asked about the status of the album - sounds like label negotiations are continuing but nothing's been decided upon yet. They seemed pretty happy with the way things are shaping up, which is good. I'll be curious to see what's decided on in the end. That's it I think. To all the listfolk I've met all over the country this year - it was great to meet you, and thanks for everything. I'll see you all around at some show somewhere, sometime I'm sure... :) sherlyn HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:01:56 -0500 From: "Charisse D. Lowe" Subject: Re: New CD & Price Hi Meredith, It was either an MTV or VH-1 special that I saw on Tori. Made me hope for Tori that she had good personal security! And again, we can agree to disagree, and no one gets hurt... LOL Charisse HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 08:59:40 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Birchmere show Sherlyn Koo wrote: > This'll be my last show for a while, as I'm heading back to Australia in a > couple of weeks and I don't know when I'll be back this way again (sigh). Come on, girl ! Get your priorities straight !!! What's come over you??? HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 21:50:13 -0500 From: Jonie Lehmann Subject: Ram's Head set list, Nov. 30, Ram's Head, Annapolis, MD Stationery Shades of Gray Blue Guitar Yellow House Petaluma (b/c the sun went down at 2pm) Bonsai Misery Barbed Wire Boys Big Car (Erin McKeown joined her for Erin's song Taste of You) Here Comes The Sun (with Erin on Groetsch electric) Drink of Water Cole Porter Philanthropy No One Needs to KNow Light Sleeper Much At All Stay on your Side of Town So Nice I can't be new encores: STanding in my own way May I suggest I won the bet on Here Comes the Sun. Hard to imagine a musician took the stage anywhere in the world Friday night and didn't at least try a George Harrison song. It was lovely, as Erin & Susan harmonized beautifully. Susan played a solo on Erin's song. The Ram's Head is a very odd shape, so Susan's back was to us for the whole romantic piano thing and one by one, all the heads around me began to nod. She says the Barns show in April will be a combo thing, the whole romantic song cycle. Should be interesting. I paid $18.70 for each CD, with the Ram's Head tax (of 10%, they are taxing CD's as if they were food and getting away with it). Sure wish I'd bought them from Bulletproof and given Patty my nickel instead. Live and learn. BTW, I am a record buyer for an independent record store. I almost never buy a CD. We were among the retailers fighting for the Minimum Advertised Price, since we can't sell refrigerators at a huge markup to make up for selling CD's under cost. My store does sell books, which helps. Tower and the other record-only stores are really eeking it out. CD's profit margin is about 35%, more like a restaurant than like retail (wouldn't it be great if people tipped record clerks?). Jonie "Mystery and chimera and a million flying birds" --- The Nields, "Train" HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:06:11 -0500 (EST) From: Leslie Dreyer Kalra Subject: Re: New CD & Price Well said, Charisse. I wholeheartedly agree. I'd just like to add that life is too damn short to spend it writing ugly e-mails to people. What could possibly be the point other than sheer mean-spiritedness? Tony, sorry you had to be the recipient of such negativity. Variety is the spice of life...:) leslie On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Charisse D. Lowe wrote: > I warned Tony about the off-list mail....Several of us got ugly email from > people on this list who profess to be Susan fans - and we only criticized > her management, not Susan! . If you are really a fan, you should be vocal > about her work in an objective and civilized manner. Tony's critique was > mindful of both categories. Criticism both positive and negative helps an > artist grow. Otherwise you get an 'emperor's new clothes' scenario going, > and the artist doesn't mature. > > There is a huge difference between being a fan and being a cultist. > Cultists cannot abide criticism of their object of adoration. ( I once > watched a documentary on Tori Amos' fans, and I found them to be quite > scary...) Real fans want their artist to grow and expand their talent. Let's > not get confused. > > Charisse > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Marbuke > To: believers@smoe.org > Date: Sunday, December 02, 2001 10:52 AM > Subject: New CD & Price > > > >This is my last post on this subject. I'm tired of > >all the hateful email by members of this list being > >sent to me privately. Apparently you can freely > >discuss Susan Werner and her music if you only have > >positive things to say.... > > > >My only point was this. I paid nearly $20 for Susan's > >new CD, which I regard as a very high price compared > >to what I normally pay for discs, based on the nearly > >universal acclaim posted here on this list. Everybody > >was writing how great this new CD was, top ten of the > >year, her breakout CD, all this kind of stuff. I am a > >huge Susan fan after Straight Girls and Time Between > >Trains and saw her many times live in the years > >between 1995-2001. > > > >My opinion, yes my opinion but also shared by some who > >have privately emailed me, is that this new CD of hers > >is not just a bad Susan CD (which would still be > >better than most CDs) but a Bad CD, period. > > > >Why do I (we!) feel this way? The production is > >cheap, the songs are weak, there is none of the > >emotional power or clever humor of the past CDs. > >There just doesn't seem a lot of thought or effort was > >put into making this CD, it seems rushed or slopped > >together, not very well planned on any level which is > >obvious when you compare it to her previous two > >releases. > > > >If you like this CD, great. I'm happy for you. But I > >think the idea that Susan can do no wrong is misplaced > >idol worship. I think that some posters on this list > >would applaud a CD of her reading the yellow pages as > >"genius, unique, brilliant." > > > >I'm disappointed in this CD not just because it took > >her three years to release it but because it is not > >representative of the great talent she is. I hope her > >next CD is better planned and executed. > > > >Finally, I think all list members who are > >contemplating a purchase of this CD should have a > >consensus of opinions about it to make an informed > >decision. $20 is a lot of money to some people > >especially in these tough economic times. Comments > >positive and negative should be not only welcome but > >encouraged as part of a free debate on this subject. > >Those that attempt through intimidation and insults to > >silence dissenters for whatever reason do Susan, list > >members, and free speech a disservice. > > > >Tony > >Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. > >http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > >HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org > >Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs > >http://worldcafecds.com > > HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org > Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs > http://worldcafecds.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V5 #260 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message