From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V5 #223 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Tuesday, October 30 2001 Volume 05 : Number 223 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- Re: Manual Forward from Marty Young [Sherlyn Koo ] Did the IRS win? [Rjabalos@aol.com] Re: the new cd (official release date?) [John DeFord ] the marty message [Christopher Sweeney ] Filter this [Rjabalos@aol.com] Re: believers-digest V5 #219 [Loris1127@aol.com] so long, fairwell, auf wiedersehn, goodbye [Charlie Sweeney ] cd lengths ["mosh" ] Re: Manual Forward from Marty Young ["Ron Rosen" ] Fw: Favorite Performer Poll ["I Won't be Your Brad Pitt" Subject: Re: Manual Forward from Marty Young Hey folks, Marty said: >slope. Our job as FANS is to go to the shows that we >can, enjoy the >music, >buy the albums that we want to buy, and take what we >can from the >messages >shared through the music. I would use the word "privilege", not "job". :) Hearing Susan's music makes me happy to be alive. Every time I see her play live I feel like the luckiest person on the planet. (Yes, I am a dork - I don't care!) So, did anyone see Susan and Ellis in Colorado? Reports please... Cheers, sherlyn - -- Sherlyn Koo - sherlyn@fl.net.au "It really is that simple, It really is that fragile" - Peter Mulvey HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:11:36 EST From: Rjabalos@aol.com Subject: Did the IRS win? In a message dated 10/30/01 12:52:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, owner-believers-digest@smoe.org writes: > Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 06:27:53 -0800 > From: "Ron Rosen" > Subject: Re: Record label economics > > > For anyone interested in how record labels really work, I recommend the > book > > THIS BUSINESS OF MUSIC by Sidney Shemel and M. William Krasilovsky. This > > book is the bible of the industry, sort of what SECURITY ANALYSIS by > Graham > > and Dodd is for the investing world. > > A couple years ago, I tried a tax case against Microsoft. One of > Microsoft's > arguments was that there was no real difference between a music CD, a film > on DVD, > and computer software stored on CD. We argued that there was a very real > difference > between software and a music CD or a movie stored on CD. One of > Microsoft's > witnesses was M. William Krasilovsky (we referred to him as Kraz). He > testified how > music deals and contracts are put together. Actually, even though he was > Microsoft's > What was the result of the case? You got me curious. And tell me more about Kraz. I've used his book as a reference for years but never put a face to the man. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:11:16 -0800 From: John DeFord Subject: Re: the new cd (official release date?) Yep, Sherlyn's explanation sounds exactly right. When Jonatha Brooke's CD, Steady Pull, came out, she did not make it available prior to the release date to her fans, although you could pre-order it on the website. Important to note that Jonatha put it out on her own indie label, Bad Dog Records. The reason she didn't let it out prior to the official date was that she had an agreement with Borders that precluded advance sales. I know that Susan's situation is different, but it is another example of a reason why this situation could legitimately exist. All I know is that I'll have one of Susan's CD's headed my way very soon and I am happy about that. And the discussion of the CD has only served to heighten the anticipation. Cheers, John ........... Sometimes the beauty of life John ...... Hits like lightning .... DeFord Washing everything clear ........... -Shawn Colvin jdef@yahoo.com At 07:09 PM 10/29/2001 -0800, Sherlyn Koo wrote: >An official release date is the date the album appears in stores, >ads appear in magazines, it becomes available on the web. The day >that anyone who wants to buy it should be able to, via any method >they want to use. None of this will happen until the label stuff >is sorted out, since the release date may need to be co-ordinated >with the release dates of other albums on the same label. And that >sort of large-scale distribution is generally the responsibility >of the label, not of the artist or their manager. > >Buying an album at a show is a whole different experience from >buying it any other way. Buy an album at a show and it's pretty >much come straight from the artist's basement to you. Buy it in a >store and it's gone from the distribution company's warehouse to >the store's warehouse to the shelf to you. Vastly simplified but >basically what I'm trying to say is that there's a lot less steps >involved in selling albums at a show than there is in getting it >in the stores, or available online. > >-sherlyn >-- >Sherlyn Koo - sherlyn@fl.net.au >"It really is that simple, > It really is that fragile" - Peter Mulvey HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:26:26 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Sweeney Subject: the marty message well said, marty, and good responses from sherlyn and john. the site, marty, is looking more and more beautiful all the time, by the way. kudos. the psychology of "fandom" is a fascinating thing. fans feel something that can only be described as love (this is a researched phenomenon) for the object of their fan-ness. it's a childlike, unqualified love that can (as we've seen) turn childISH rather easily when there is a perceived threat to it. marty is absolutely right that each fan wants to believe that s/he has a special connection with the artist. we, as fans, don't like to be reminded that we don't, but it's a great reality check. sherlyn's finetuning of "job" to "privilege" was most appropriate. nice job, sherlyn. i think things are turning in a better direction... way to rally, good people. Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:28:21 EST From: Rjabalos@aol.com Subject: Filter this In a message dated 10/30/01 12:52:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, owner-believers-digest@smoe.org writes: > There is a wide variety of people who truly care about each other, as well > as our shared interest in SW. Only now, after an egregious breach of > netiquette, will I, sadly and reluctantly, apply the aforementioned email > filter on a member of this community. > > And that's all I have to say about that. > > Regards, > John > > I love the concept where someone who preaches peace, love, tolerance and understanding publicly on this list is caught RED HANDED sending out hateful, profanity-filled emails privately to list members----and I'm wrong for pointing out the hypocrisy and providing the evidence for all to read. Move over George Orwell, Kafka needs room. Netiquette? Violations? I never agreed to any such rules nor would any thinking person ever agree to any restriction on the free exchange of ideas. When a person is a liar and a fraud (as the member now caught with their hand firmly trapped in the cookie jar) they need to be exposed and any "rule" that protects their ethical double-standards is patently absurd. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:52:09 EST From: Loris1127@aol.com Subject: Re: believers-digest V5 #219 In a message dated 01-10-29 16:27:19 EST, you write: << If you follow the Nields at all, you probably know that they had to beg and plead to be able to buy access to the CDs they produced while they were on a major label. The idea that a corporation can hold an artist's work hostage repulses me. >> And IIRC, Suze has been down this road before, having to "buy back" the rights to one of the early CD's - Tin Angel? Once burnt, twice shy, perhaps. Lori in NH HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:57:31 -0800 (PST) From: Charlie Sweeney Subject: so long, fairwell, auf wiedersehn, goodbye Per Rjabalos: ****Netiquette? Violations? I never agreed to any such rules nor would any thinking person ever agree to any restriction on the free exchange of ideas.****** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ By this arguement, Rjabalos has stated he doesn't agree to the (very reasonable, I think) single rule that I use to run this list. That rule is 'Be respectful to one another". What you mail to one another off list is none of my business, but what goes to the list is. I certainly don't have the time to moderate him, so he's on vacation for a while. Charlie (=}===# list-mom Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:04:53 -0800 From: John DeFord Subject: Re: so long, fairwell, auf wiedersehn, goodbye Unfortunate, but necessary. Thank you, Charlie. Cheers, - -john ........... Sometimes the beauty of life John ...... Hits like lightning .... DeFord Washing everything clear ........... -Shawn Colvin jdef@yahoo.com At 10:57 AM 10/30/2001 -0800, Charlie Sweeney wrote: >Per Rjabalos: > >****Netiquette? Violations? I never agreed to any >such rules nor would any thinking person ever agree to >any restriction on the free exchange of ideas.****** > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >By this arguement, Rjabalos has stated he doesn't >agree to the (very reasonable, I think) single rule >that I use to run this list. That rule is 'Be >respectful to one another". What you mail to one >another off list is none of my business, but what goes >to the list is. > >I certainly don't have the time to moderate him, so >he's on vacation for a while. > >Charlie (=}===# >list-mom >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >http://personals.yahoo.com > >HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org >Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs >http://worldcafecds.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:25:04 -0800 From: John DeFord Subject: Re: believers-digest V5 #219 Good point, Lori. There are a lot of horror stories about shabby treatment by the majors. It seems like a lot of artists are taking alternative routes these days. With the advent of the 'Net, and with the increasingly shortsighted focus by many large record companies on instant profits at the expense of A & R, many more artists are choosing to go independent. Obviously, the risks are all bourne by the artist, but the upside is complete creative control and ownership of their own output. Over the past two years, Performing Songwriter magazine has dedicated an issue to Independent record companies. It's an excellent magazine overall, but these yearly issues are really special. They show a different road that artists can take to get their music out there without submitting to meat grinder of the great corporate machine. Of course, Ani DiFranco's Righteous Babe label is the model that others strive for, but there are many different ways to achieve relative success by being independent. The cool thing is that some of these labels that were created for just the original artist, are now adding other artists to their rosters, which leverages the trail that was originally blazed, yet treats the artists with respect and with an eye towards development and longer term goals that is missing elsewhere. So, does any of this make sense and/or apply to Susan? I dunno. It just shows that there is more than one destination and certainly many ways to get there, wherever that may be. Cheers, John ........... Sometimes the beauty of life John ...... Hits like lightning .... DeFord Washing everything clear ........... -Shawn Colvin jdef@yahoo.com At 01:52 PM 10/30/2001 -0500, Loris1127@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 01-10-29 16:27:19 EST, you write: > ><< If you follow the Nields at all, you > probably know that they had to beg and plead to be able to buy > access to the CDs they produced while they were on a major > label. The idea that a corporation can hold an artist's work > hostage repulses me. > >> >And IIRC, Suze has been down this road before, having to "buy back" the >rights to one of the early CD's - Tin Angel? Once burnt, twice shy, perhaps. > >Lori in NH HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:31:13 -0500 From: "mosh" Subject: cd lengths simona had posted wondering why cds always seem to hover around the forty-five minute mark when they are capable of holding close to eighty minutes. two reasons i can think of are cost and saturation. it may well be that an artist only has a certain amount of money to spend on the recording, manufacturing, etc. of a cd. there may also be a possibility that too much music will grow tedious. i read a review this morning of the new michael jackson cd (not that i am comparing sw to mj in ANY way, shape, or form) and one of the criticisms was that it was just too long. just a thought. i could be wrong. rock on! stephen/MOSH "Kings, Gods, and Heroes - Maybe their day is over, but I can't believe it." - John Steinbeck HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:55:23 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Manual Forward from Marty Young Marty - when you're not at home, try using www.mail2web.com . You will need to know your password to your email provider. It's free. You can read your emails from any computer, and you can reply or send messages as well. You can also delete messages so they never hit your email program, if you want. I liked your message, and I agree with a lot of it, but I would like to respectfully discuss it. > - - we do not have "ownership" priviledges over > Susan's career. Although it is easy to believe that > we can make better decisions and help Susan's >career progress to a place that we think she should > be, the only person who can truly decide where > Susan is heading is Susan. I agree with that. > - - Susan's management is like any other management > group. If they make mistakes (like mistreat a venue), they > do the same thing that you or I would do and apologize, > hopefully move on, and establish a better relationship over time. You are making an assumption here, and again, I'll admit that I don't know the facts, other than what I've heard here on the list and a few private emails. You assume that her management is not engaged in a negative pattern that is alienating venues. If that's what's happening, it's not about making mistakes and apologizing. The reason why we as fans care about this is that it is in our interest to see Susan play at venues near us as much as is reasonable. One message on this subject was from someone whose hometown lost a Susan show (and maybe future shows) due to the way management handled the venue, and the only other show is at least a couple hours away. That person has every right to be concerned about this, to discuss it among fellow fans, and hope it gets back to Susan. Performers develop reputations, in part due to the conduct of the people that represent them. It is certainly in our interest as fans to want Susan to have the best reputation possible, and to alert her to the possibility that things might be going on that she might not be aware of or approve of. > I've listened to the discussions, and we are starting > down a very slippery slope. Our job as FANS is to go > to the shows that we can, enjoy the music, > buy the albums that we want to buy, and take what we > can from the messages shared through the music. Our > job is *not* to manage Susan ...Susan is ultimately the "boss" > she gets to decide what direction those business relationships > go as well. I'm not baiting you, Marty, I'm sincerely asking, "Why is it a slippery slope, and where do you see it leading?" Susan is ultimately the boss, but I disagree with the limitations on fandom. We can join together, make friends, talk about the artists, criticize them, offer them advice in a public forum such as this where we are not imposing on them directly. I love Susan's work. No other current performer compares to her as far as I'm concerned. I think 99% if not 100% of the things that have been written on this list since October 21 (the day it all seemed to start) came from people who also love Susan and only want the best for her. Clearly, we can't run her career or her life, but we can have our opinions and we can express them. No one should be threatened by this. I think your message may be suggesting that the recent discussions can somehow be damaging to Susan or her career. I don't see it that way. But maybe I'm missing something. If so, I'm open to explanations about the potential damage these discussions can cause. Let's not forget how this all started. It started because we learned that CDs would only be available at shows. Some of us stepped in to fill the void. But, we as fans had every right to wonder why that was necessary. This raised legitimate questions about the decisions that were being made. I think these discussions have been good and healthy, and I hope that the information about what people were thinking has gotten back to Susan so that she has the opportunity to be informed about what people are thinking and to act upon it if she so chooses. Ron HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:07:53 -0800 From: "I Won't be Your Brad Pitt" Subject: Fw: Favorite Performer Poll I'm forwarding this from the Dar list, in case any of y'all would like to play. > Howdy- > > Every year around this time, WUMB conducts a poll. Over the past few years, > they asked listeners to vote for their favorite CDs of all time. This year, > they've altered it so that you can vote for up to 10 of your favorite folk > performers of all time. (The premise is that you can take up to 10 of these > performers with you on a kazillion-mile space flight [this being 2001 and > all].) During the week of November 12, 'UMB will count down the > selections. You can look forward to hearing blocks of your favorite artists > on a commercial-free folk radio station (www.wumb.org; > 91.9 FM). > > Aside from showing your support for outstanding artists (and the best radio > station within a kazillion miles of earth), you can also win prizes, such as > CDs, concert tickets, and WUMB promo items. I've included the link below. > http://www.wumb.org/ HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V5 #223 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message