From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V5 #222 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Tuesday, October 30 2001 Volume 05 : Number 222 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- Right On! [Rjabalos@aol.com] You talkin' to me? [Rjabalos@aol.com] Discussion and debate [Charlie Sweeney ] Re: You talkin' to me? Many transgressions of list serv rules [Simona Lo] Re: Record label economics ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Discussion and debate ["Chuck Ellingson" ] [none] [John DeFord ] Manual Forward from Marty Young [Charlie Sweeney ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:45:48 EST From: Rjabalos@aol.com Subject: Right On! In a message dated 10/29/01 9:42:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, owner-believers-digest@smoe.org writes: > Great to see this list so lively ! I like the spirited discussions. I hope > they > continue. > > 1. My main concern is not that Susan doesn't have a record deal because > there seems > to be some very good reasons not to have one. My concern was with the > decision not > to distribute the CD via the website, with list members having to take up > the slack. > The rationale for management's decision frankly made no sense to me and > seemed either > like a rationalization or a management out of touch with reality. Also, > there were > five or six personal anecdotes (and I know of others) about management not > treating > venues very well or jerking them around. This is not good. It is not in > the fans > interest to have venues pissed off and not want to book Susan. > > 2. To those of you who defend her management with "you don't have all the > facts" or > "I'm sure they have their reasons", there ARE bad managers. There are > people who get > results that are opposite of what they say their objectives are. There are > people > who sabotage themselves or others, either consciously or uncounsciously. > Jay Leno > had a manager when he first took over the Tonight Show who was bullying > people and > making them choose between Letterman and Leno. After awhile, she treated > so many > people so badly that word got out and she was finally fired. I do not know > the > details of Susan's management but I am concerned about the two issues noted > (1) > failure to distribute the CD in a reasonable manner (2) bad treatment of > venues. > This leads one to wonder what other things that could be done to advance > her career > that haven't been done. > > 3. I have been a fan of Susan for 7 1/2 years, and I've never thought of > her songs > as "depressing." Depressing brings me down. Susan's songs are uplifting > even when > their subject matter is not pretty. How many decent artists write songs > only about > happy topics? Last of the Good Straight Girls is a great song, about a > horrible > event, but I never thought of it as depressing. There are singers whom I > do think > are depressing, and I won't name names. Like Bonsai and Sorry about Jesus > and many > others are sad because of the human conditions they portray, but the > writing and the > message and the songs are uplifting. Susan deals with issues that move me, > and she > does it in an amazing way. Ron, you echo my sentiments exactly! Right on! One further point is important. Lots of what people are writing in these posts about record labels, distribution companies, music production, and other business aspects of the music business lately are simply wrong. I think there is a whole lot of confusion out there about what record labels do, the type of deals they offer, and much more. Too many falsehoods and incorrect statements have been made to sort them through here. I recommended the book THIS BUSINESS OF MUSIC which is the definitive guide to the music industry for anyone really interested in how this all works. If you take the time to read the relevant parts of this book you will understand how Susan's management (think business advisors) have let her down and that there is no real justification for all that has occured. P.S. The term "official release date" is used by publishers and music companies as the formal date of release of their products (books, music, software, etc.) to the public through their retail distribution chains. All advertising and promotion revolves around that date to coordinate marketing and maximize sales. That said, the "official" release date means nothing to the non-retail public. By that date, ordinarily hundreds if not thousands of items (whatever they may be) have already been put in the hands of reviewers, publicists, special offers to fans, and many many others. Unless there is a "hard" marketing push behind behind a product, meaning a coordinated and well financed advertising and publicity effort orchestrated by a publisher or record label, there really isn't an "official" release date. Most books, music, software and the like simply trickle out as customers are found. I doubt a single Susan CD has ever had an "official" release date. My point is that "Official Release Date" is a term-of-art in the music and publishing business that has specific meaning for those in the industry. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:50:16 EST From: Rjabalos@aol.com Subject: You talkin' to me? To those of you who say I've been negative and hostile, here is a typical email I receive from list members who disagrees with me. Subj: Re: a note of advice Date: 10/29/01 9:35:38 PM Eastern Standard Time From: loberant@yahoo.com (Simona Loberant) To: Rjabalos@aol.com YOu are totally full of shit.... but that's not the point. This negativitiy is not necessary. If you want to bitch and moan then do it with the supportive folks who emailed you. Already at least one person has dropped off of the list b/c of this negativity. What's the point of spewing this hate all over a list of people who just want to enjoy the music? Start a group on yahoo groups called wehatesusanwerner'smanagement. I don't care about the freaking truth according to you. You are a total idiot, I don't know how old you are or what the point is of your harrassing the list with your consipiracy theaories. Frankly, I think that SW would rather that folks like you would not buy the CD.... leaves more for those of us who are not absolutely nuts. And why is it that the people who oppose you can do it on the list in "public" and those who support you do it mostly in secret back to you. And I have news for you, my world is not quiet nor would i want it to be. But I joined this list to "meet" fellow fans and to discuss the music not theorize on massive anti fan conspiracies cooked up in your head. ~Simona Loberant (See, I will sign my name, unlike other people) I will leave all the analysis and commentary to the objective among you. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:59:06 -0800 (PST) From: Charlie Sweeney Subject: Discussion and debate HI all, The current discussions are getting a little out of hand here. Please tone it down. The last thing that I want to do, and the last thing you want me to do, is to have to moderate the list, which will seriously delay your posts. All I'm asking for is a little respect for each other. Think you guys can help me out with that? Thanks! Charlie (=}===# listmom Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 06:26:45 -0800 (PST) From: Simona Loberant Subject: Re: You talkin' to me? Many transgressions of list serv rules OKay, this is it. First of all you have absolutely no right to post an email that was sent to you privately. That is a total and utter violation of list protocols (this includes ALL list servs) I have never, ever allowed you to post any of the emails I sent to you to the list and I would like to say that as many times as possible. Secondly no one has the right to not only post a private message but to add and subtract words in order to make the email sound more hostile. I cannot say how incredibley angry I am. First I recieve insults privately from this individual because they did not like me saying that maybe we are barking up the wrong tree and that I preffered it when the list was quiet and talked about songs, concerts and fashion and other random stuff. ... then to have my response to these insults altered and then posted publicly as if they were all my words really truly makes me angry. I have never posted anything derogatory on this list, and nor shall I . Had I not been as disgusted as I was I would have kept this person's emails to stick in his/her face as examples of true negativity... and I would not have changed the words around. I have recieved insults for wanting to put together the book for SW b/c it seemed obsessive and stalkerish, I have receieved insults for just saying that maybe we don't have all the right info for blasting her management... If I get these in private that's okay, but this public display of plagarism and unauthorized editing is beyond comprehension and breaks the barriers of list serv behavior. I am sure that an email will be posted calling me a liar about ten minutes after this goes out. I totally expect it from someone who has shown as little maturity as this person has. Its too bad that someone could be so incredibley negative and ruin the atmosphere of an otherwise nice list serv. To whomever runs this list I request that something be done about this illegal posting and that this individual either be monitored on the list or kicked off. Thank you, Simona Rjabalos@aol.com wrote: To those of you who say I've been negative and hostile, here is a typical email I receive from list members who disagrees with me. Subj: Re: a note of advice Date: 10/29/01 9:35:38 PM Eastern Standard Time From: loberant@yahoo.com (Simona Loberant) To: Rjabalos@aol.com YOu are totally full of shit.... but that's not the point. This negativitiy is not necessary. If you want to bitch and moan then do it with the supportive folks who emailed you. Already at least one person has dropped off of the list b/c of this negativity. What's the point of spewing this hate all over a list of people who just want to enjoy the music? Start a group on yahoo groups called wehatesusanwerner'smanagement. I don't care about the freaking truth according to you. You are a total idiot, I don't know how old you are or what the point is of your harrassing the list with your consipiracy theaories. Frankly, I think that SW would rather that folks like you would not buy the CD.... leaves more for those of us who are not absolutely nuts. And why is it that the people who oppose you can do it on the list in "public" and those who support you do it mostly in secret back to you. And I have news for you, my world is not quiet nor would i want it to be. But I joined this list to "meet" fellow fans and to discuss the music not theorize on massive anti fan conspiracies cooked up in your head. ~Simona Loberant (See, I will sign my name, unlike other people) I will leave all the analysis and commentary to the objective among you. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com Simona L. Loberant http://www.geocities.com/loberant "Every now and then go away, even briefly, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer; since to remain constantly at work will cause you to lose power." **Leonardo da Vinci Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 06:27:53 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Record label economics > For anyone interested in how record labels really work, I recommend the book > THIS BUSINESS OF MUSIC by Sidney Shemel and M. William Krasilovsky. This > book is the bible of the industry, sort of what SECURITY ANALYSIS by Graham > and Dodd is for the investing world. A couple years ago, I tried a tax case against Microsoft. One of Microsoft's arguments was that there was no real difference between a music CD, a film on DVD, and computer software stored on CD. We argued that there was a very real difference between software and a music CD or a movie stored on CD. One of Microsoft's witnesses was M. William Krasilovsky (we referred to him as Kraz). He testified how music deals and contracts are put together. Actually, even though he was Microsoft's witness, he was very helpful to our case. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:35:14 -0600 From: "Chuck Ellingson" Subject: Re: Discussion and debate Here here, Charlie! As an educator, I strive to teach RESPECT. It's difficult to teach our children to respect one another when they see how adults treat each other sometimes. Respectful disagreement is one thing, but this has really gone beyond that. I support everyone's right to express her/his opinion... as long as it is done respectfully. Do we seriously want Big Brother moderating our freedom of expression?!? (NO OFFENSE, CHARLIE!) Peace, Chuck Ellingson (P.S. As for the educator comment... I'm not teaching full-time at present, but I do teach Sunday School and run a tutoring program.) >From: Charlie Sweeney >Reply-To: charlie@somethingblack.com >To: believers@smoe.org >Subject: Discussion and debate >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:59:06 -0800 (PST) > >HI all, > >The current discussions are getting a little out of >hand here. Please tone it down. The last thing that I >want to do, and the last thing you want me to do, is >to have to moderate the list, which will seriously >delay your posts. > >All I'm asking for is a little respect for each other. >Think you guys can help me out with that? > >Thanks! > >Charlie (=}===# >listmom >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >http://personals.yahoo.com > >HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org >Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs >http://worldcafecds.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:07:24 -0800 From: John DeFord Subject: [none] What we are experiencing on this list at the moment is not unique to this list. This is simply part of the evolution of the list. It doesn't happen to every list, but it does all too frequently. I am sure many of you have seen the email that floats around from time to time about the different stages of life that these lists go through. This is definitely a part of it. The good thing is that this too, shall pass. One thing that non-digest readers can do is set an email filter to redirect mail from an individual to the trash, where it belongs. This will lower some of the pain felt while enduring a spate of negativism without Charlie having to step in. Digesters can simply scroll past the noise (and I do recognize that this post is a form of noise as well...). In my experience, the best way to end one of these periods, is to ignore and not respond to the irritant. Some people feed off of negativism which in turn creates more and more caustic content; any response, especially when negative, create a sense of importance and relevance to them and the best way to end the cycle is to simply ignore them. Everyone has a right to express themselves and this list has been, over time, the most pleasant, open, tolerant and downright excellent community I have ever had the pleasure of reading. There is a wide variety of people who truly care about each other, as well as our shared interest in SW. Only now, after an egregious breach of netiquette, will I, sadly and reluctantly, apply the aforementioned email filter on a member of this community. And that's all I have to say about that. Regards, John HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:50:08 -0800 (PST) From: Charlie Sweeney Subject: Manual Forward from Marty Young (Sorry, I'm not at my home machine and I can't forward properly from Yahoo) From: Marty Young Reply-To: marty.young@ncircle.com Organization: nCircle Network Security To: believers@smoe.org Subject: got life?!?!?!? Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:57:11 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Wow - I usually sit back in the shadows and read the comments that people share about shows and opinions of songs they've heard. It is unusual for this list to be so busy. It's also becoming clear that we (and I would include myself in that group, because I am no better than anyone else) are losing sight of a few things. Facts: - - - we are all FANS! -and we are all a part of her FAN list. We do not have some special connection to Susan because we belong to this list, but we do have a central place to share our thoughts and opinions. Sure, some of us may have cultivated a "friendship" with Susan over the last several years, and some of us can honestly say we know her well, but we are all still fans! - - - we do not have "ownership" priviledges over Susan's career. Although it is easy to believe that we can make better decisions and help Susan's career progress to a place that we think she should be, the only person who can truly decide where Susan is heading is Susan. - - - Susan's management is like any other management group. They have decisions to make that may not agree with everyone's taste. But like any management, they make those decisions for a common goal. If they make mistakes (like mistreat a venue), they do the same thing that you or I would do and apologize, hopefully move on, and establish a better relationship over time. I've listened to the discussions, and we are starting down a very slippery slope. Our job as FANS is to go to the shows that we can, enjoy the music, buy the albums that we want to buy, and take what we can from the messages shared through the music. Our job is *not* to manage Susan (unless she calls you one day and says "Hey, I need you to be my manager!") or to manage Susan's career. Only her booking company, her manager, and Jane get that right, and because Susan is ultimately the "boss", she gets to decide what direction those business relationships go as well. we may not all like to admit that we are FANs and that our role in Susan's career is limited to our purchasing power, but that is the natuire of relationships between performer and fan... - - --Marty Young (Webmaster, susanwerner.com) - - -- - - - ------------------------------------------------------ Carpe Aptenodytes! - - - ------------------------------------------------------ Marty Young Customer Support Engineer marty.young@ncircle.com nCircle Network Security - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE73rG6t5xNtgiwQtERAks2AJ47OeCTGVIL1CUvz+AEsyLbBdA82QCghGY7 UwyHcXmkm5ACAWw+7MIX4P4= =BPUM - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V5 #222 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message