From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V5 #220 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Monday, October 29 2001 Volume 05 : Number 220 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- Re: The Great SW Controversy [Kris Richardson ] World Peace, a Cure for Cancer, and Free Beer too! [Rjabalos@aol.com] Re: World Peace, a Cure for Cancer, and Free Beer too! [Jeff Wasilko ] Re: The Great SW Controversy [HAK Music ] Re: The Great SW Controversy [Sherlyn Koo ] Notes from a Pragmatic Idealist [John DeFord ] Let Me Say This About That (He really was a bad president, wasn't he?) ["] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Oct 01 16:36:58 -0500 From: Kris Richardson Subject: Re: The Great SW Controversy Agreed Jeff, having total control is a great advantage. What you lose though is all of the good things that come with a strong record deal, first and foremost marketing. But you make a good point, and every musician has to evaluate what is most important to them. Kris >Kris...this isn't directed at you....just comments that happened >to pop to mind at this moment. > >I don't understand why people are 'worked up' that there isn't a >record deal yet. People seem to overlook the fact that without a >record company behind her, she was able to fund and record a CD >with a big-name producer and talented musicians. That was not an >expensive undertaking. > >The result is that Susan owns the CD and all the rights (as >opposed to the typical situation where the record company usually >ends up owning the rights). If you follow the Nields at all, you >probably know that they had to beg and plead to be able to buy >access to the CDs they produced while they were on a major >label. The idea that a corporation can hold an artist's work >hostage repulses me. > >Also, Susan had complete creative control, as opposed to having >to please one or more record company execs. > >Deals like this don't happen overnight. Records don't get made >overnight. It was only June when Susan was getting ready to go >into the studio. > >-j HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:37:36 EST From: Rjabalos@aol.com Subject: World Peace, a Cure for Cancer, and Free Beer too! In a message dated 10/29/01 4:27:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, owner-believers-digest@smoe.org writes: > I think you're making an unreasonable request, especially in > light of the fact that EVERYONE on the list could have a CD in > How? By all of us going to see Susan perform live within the next seven days? That works for me. I'd only have to fly and drive a few thousand miles to buy a compact disc. If Mohammed could go to the mountain (and not the other way around), can't the CD come to me instead of me going to it? Makes more sense that way. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:49:47 -0500 From: Jeff Wasilko Subject: Re: World Peace, a Cure for Cancer, and Free Beer too! On Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 04:37:36PM -0500, Rjabalos@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/29/01 4:27:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, > owner-believers-digest@smoe.org writes: > > > > I think you're making an unreasonable request, especially in > > light of the fact that EVERYONE on the list could have a CD in > > > > How? By all of us going to see Susan perform live within the next seven > days? That works for me. I'd only have to fly and drive a few thousand > miles to buy a compact disc. I'm going to assume you're playing dumb to make a point, or something. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:53:40 EST From: Rjabalos@aol.com Subject: Susan's songs In a message dated 10/29/01 4:27:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, owner-believers-digest@smoe.org writes: > You can't let it go, can you? Dude, I'm telling you...perspective is > needed, > and no amount of insult from you will change my mind. When I say I have > spoken to Susan herself a number of times about certain subjects, and > interpretation is needed by an individual... I MEAN IT. Your email > states > the meaning of at least 2 Susan songs. You state the meaning. Hello??? > You > cannot STATE the meaning of a song. Do you understand the human ability to > have an opinion other than yours?? Do you think Susan sits up all night, > sleepless, thinking "How will Rjabalos take this meaning? I need to make > it > REEEEEAAALLLYYYY depressing!" No way. She writes for herself. We take > in > from that what we want to. That's the human mind. Try to open yours, and > do > NOT attempt to understand the minds of people who can think for themselves. > > I do NOT need to do more homework. My PhD is plenty for me, thanks. > Barbara Cole > ~student of life, love, and the pursuit of happiness. All other subjects > have been mastered in universities. > Who's insulting whom? I defy anyone to interpret the words to the song LAST OF THE GOOD STRAIGHT GIRLS as a very sad tale about an innocent but naive woman attacked by a brutal man who turns her into a paranoid, insecure person living in such fear she carries a gun and drives a bullet-proof car! And MUCH AT ALL? That's a happy tune? I'm sure the protagonist of MOVIE OF MY LIFE could give self-improvement classes with Tony Robbins. She's got such a high opinion of herself, right? Susan writes songs for herself? Maybe----with a bit of self-interest and some real need for cash thrown into the mix. I love her music but let's be honest. Her songs are not all about flowers, picnics, sunny days, and fifty year marriages. The vast majority of her songs revolve around unhappy, lonely, confused, desperate people with broken relationships searching for something better. No other way to interpret them. I'm sorry. Sometimes white means white and black means black and there is no way to fuzz up the English language with artsy analysis. That doesn't make them bad songs. It makes them excellent but very sad ones. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:55:03 -0800 From: "Gregg" Subject: pointallism ........ (was optimism, then "realism") Rjabalos whined, er, wrote: "I doubt I'll buy a single copy of this new CD at this point. I guess I just skewed management's numbers and they need to rerun those spreadsheets before hitting the negotiation table." yep, that'll show 'em ................. and really "help" Susan. "I find this whole situation very sad." so said Alice to the looking glass ..... HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:02:27 EST From: Rjabalos@aol.com Subject: Record label economics In a message dated 10/29/01 4:27:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, owner-believers-digest@smoe.org writes: > > I don't understand why people are 'worked up' that there isn't a > record deal yet. People seem to overlook the fact that without a > record company behind her, she was able to fund and record a CD > with a big-name producer and talented musicians. That was not an > expensive undertaking. > > The result is that Susan owns the CD and all the rights (as > opposed to the typical situation where the record company usually > ends up owning the rights). If you follow the Nields at all, you > probably know that they had to beg and plead to be able to buy > access to the CDs they produced while they were on a major > label. The idea that a corporation can hold an artist's work > hostage repulses me. > > Also, Susan had complete creative control, as opposed to having > to please one or more record company execs. > > Deals like this don't happen overnight. Records don't get made > overnight. It was only June when Susan was getting ready to go > There is lots of misunderstanding about what a record label does or does not do. This email contains some of them. For anyone interested in how record labels really work, I recommend the book THIS BUSINESS OF MUSIC by Sidney Shemel and M. William Krasilovsky. This book is the bible of the industry, sort of what SECURITY ANALYSIS by Graham and Dodd is for the investing world. No one knows who owns Susan's current CD, her songs, or anything else. The author above makes too many assumptions. If you read this book in any measurable way you will understand what a truly dumb thing it is to produce an album without a record label deal first. This book is an excellent reference guide, a must for anyone in the industry. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:10:43 -0800 (PST) From: Rob Piester Subject: Remove me from this list Far too much nonsense for my taste. Maybe I'll rejoin once the traffic dies down. Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:17:51 -0500 From: HAK Music Subject: Re: The Great SW Controversy This is fairly common in this type of music, to make the record first, and then find a record company, or just a distributor, to get it into stores. In some cases it makes sense to find a label, such as Bernstein (Dan Bern) did after his album was complete (i.e. for marketing purposes), in other cases it makes more sense to just find a distributor. Either way, I expect that doing it this way, Susan is looking for a label that will allow her to maintain ownership/control over her music. With a major label, even though it appears that the label is "paying" for the making of the album, all the costs, and then some, are taken out of proceeds before the artist gets paid, so it is no different than paying for the production yourself, except that you get to keep control if you do that latter. If you can afford to put up the money to make the album yourself, it is to your advantage in the long run. Many seemingly popular and well known bands, that you think are making a lot of money because they sell a lot more albums than Susan and play at bigger venues than she does, never make a cent. The record companies arrange the contract so they collect all the revenue on the first album (through "costs" like marketing). The artist is poised to make much more on subsequent albums, but the label doesn't promote those and sales fall off, and the artist doesn't make much there either. The band is then dropped, never having made much, if anything, and the record company owns their music, so they don't even have control over that. That is why their so many bands that do so well for one record then disappear, because it is to the record labels advantage that they do. If you don't believe this, look up what happened to Patty Griffin, and why she has disappeared. Patty is as great and wonderful as Susan, and has produced an amazing album, but you haven't heard it, and won't hear it, because of her label. A folk album may be available for months, even years, before getting signed to a distribution deal and going into stores. That Susan's management didn't rush headlong into a bad deal, in my book, is a good thing. That they are selling the CD at all, rather than keeping it completely under wraps until a deal is signed, in my book is a good thing too. So I don't see what the bitter complaint is. added note: >If you read this book in any >measurable way you will understand what a truly dumb thing it is to produce >an album without a record label deal first. I've also seen much written that explains why it is truly dumb to produce a album *with* a record deal. The idea of making the album first is gaining momentum. - - Harry > The result is that Susan owns the CD and all the rights (as > opposed to the typical situation where the record company usually > ends up owning the rights). If you follow the Nields at all, you > probably know that they had to beg and plead to be able to buy > access to the CDs they produced while they were on a major > label. The idea that a corporation can hold an artist's work > hostage repulses me. > > Also, Susan had complete creative control, as opposed to having > to please one or more record company execs. > > Deals like this don't happen overnight. Records don't get made > overnight. It was only June when Susan was getting ready to go > into the studio. > > -j > > HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to > believers@smoe.org > Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs > fecds.com > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:42:53 -0800 From: Sherlyn Koo Subject: Re: The Great SW Controversy Hey folks, Jeff said: >I don't understand why people are 'worked up' that there isn't a >record deal yet. People seem to overlook the fact that without a >record company behind her, she was able to fund and record a CD >with a big-name producer and talented musicians. That was not an >inexpensive undertaking. I think this situation parallels quite closely what happened with SONiA of disappear fear's live album earlier this year. As I understand that situation, SONiA funded the album out of her own pocket while shopping for a licensing and distribution deal. I guess she and her manager figured that if worst came to worst the album would be released on SONiA's own indie label and distribution would be handled by the same channels as her previous indie album. I believe the album was already wrapped when the deal was finalised. Then the album became available at shows before the official release date, simply because they had stock on hand. Sales through other avenues came later and were the responsibility of the record label. Another point that I don't think anyone's mentioned yet is that since there hasn't been any official publicity about this album really the only people who know about it are: a) the people who've been to shows in the past month, and b) the people on this list. The album isn't even mentioned on the web site yet. When a deal is signed, the publicity, Internet and store sales will follow accordingly. But for now, people at shows are lucky enough to be able to pick up the album in advance, and people on this list are lucky enough to know about it and to be able to get copies through the kindness of fellow listees if they can't make it to shows themselves. - -sherlyn ps - has anybody heard of Andrea Koziol? She's from Toronto. Folk/jazz/torch/gospel/soul... she's my favourite discovery of the year. Mmmm... - -- Sherlyn Koo - sherlyn@fl.net.au "It really is that simple, It really is that fragile" - Peter Mulvey HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:33:54 -0800 From: John DeFord Subject: Notes from a Pragmatic Idealist Everything is relative. Examples: 1. Susan's management sucks next to whoever is working for . 2. Patty Griffin's situation really sucks next to Susan's not having one (The completed project is permanently shelved and will likely never see the light of day). 3. The way Susan's music strikes you is relative to who you are and whatever your mind-set is at the time. 3a. A very good and very smart (PhD) and very into music friend of mine insisted for weeks that Jonatha Brooke's 'Because I Told You So' was a beautiful, happy, love song (Most people, including me, see it as a beautiful, yet devastating, heart-wrenching song) ... After awhile, I allowed that we could both be right if we wanted to. Interpretation is in the ear of the beholder (to mangle a phrase a bit). 3b. Music is art is communication is which means the listener has a role to play, and no one gets to dictate how I should interpret music. Chances are, if the music and lyrics are pointing a certain direction, I'll take that path. But, there is no law that says I can't be consistently cheered up by listening to dirges, or be wracked by sobbing at Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah. 3c. Opinion: With that said, I think it's probably fair to say that quite a few people would say that Susan's music falls into the introspective, personal relationships, what's it all about territory as do many, many other artists. To me, this is rich, fertile ground that is not so much a reflection of the writers' personal trial and tribulations (although it certainly can be), but this territory discusses the larger questions of life itself and how various characters deal with various situations. To try to simplify this into Susan writes sad songs because her management victimizes her is to do a grave injustice to Susan and to the members of the list who can think for themselves. 4. Having a group of people around the world who are vocal and passionate about an artist (believers) is better relative to a mail-list of hundreds where you can hear the crickets chirping for the quiet, even when a new major label cd comes out after 6 years of waiting (you know which one...). To sum up: Everything is relative. Regards, john ........... Sometimes the beauty of life John ...... Hits like lightning .... DeFord Washing everything clear ........... -Shawn Colvin jdef@yahoo.com Now Playing: Ryan Adams - Gold Indigo Girls - Nomads, Indians, Saints Neil Finn - One Nil Kasey Chambers - The Captain Nickel Creek - Nickel Creek Glen Phillips - Abulum HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:40:31 -0800 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Let Me Say This About That (He really was a bad president, wasn't he?) Great to see this list so lively ! I like the spirited discussions. I hope they continue. 1. My main concern is not that Susan doesn't have a record deal because there seems to be some very good reasons not to have one. My concern was with the decision not to distribute the CD via the website, with list members having to take up the slack. The rationale for management's decision frankly made no sense to me and seemed either like a rationalization or a management out of touch with reality. Also, there were five or six personal anecdotes (and I know of others) about management not treating venues very well or jerking them around. This is not good. It is not in the fans interest to have venues pissed off and not want to book Susan. 2. To those of you who defend her management with "you don't have all the facts" or "I'm sure they have their reasons", there ARE bad managers. There are people who get results that are opposite of what they say their objectives are. There are people who sabotage themselves or others, either consciously or uncounsciously. Jay Leno had a manager when he first took over the Tonight Show who was bullying people and making them choose between Letterman and Leno. After awhile, she treated so many people so badly that word got out and she was finally fired. I do not know the details of Susan's management but I am concerned about the two issues noted (1) failure to distribute the CD in a reasonable manner (2) bad treatment of venues. This leads one to wonder what other things that could be done to advance her career that haven't been done. 3. I have been a fan of Susan for 7 1/2 years, and I've never thought of her songs as "depressing." Depressing brings me down. Susan's songs are uplifting even when their subject matter is not pretty. How many decent artists write songs only about happy topics? Last of the Good Straight Girls is a great song, about a horrible event, but I never thought of it as depressing. There are singers whom I do think are depressing, and I won't name names. Like Bonsai and Sorry about Jesus and many others are sad because of the human conditions they portray, but the writing and the message and the songs are uplifting. Susan deals with issues that move me, and she does it in an amazing way. When that happens, that's not sad or depressing. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at World Cafe CDs http://worldcafecds.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V5 #220 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message