From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V4 #120 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Saturday, July 8 2000 Volume 04 : Number 120 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- Re: To each his own [Carolyn Andre ] Re: To each his own [Leslie Dreyer Kalra ] Fw: To each his own ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: To each his/her own [meredith ] Fw: To each his/her own ["Ron Rosen" ] likes and dislikes ["Mosh" ] Re: musical likes/dislikes [PBCoustic@aol.com] Re: likes and dislikes ["Ron Rosen" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 22:10:23 -0500 From: Carolyn Andre Subject: Re: To each his own Steve ended a message with: > >So that's the whole point here... The Folk Community is a very sensitive bunch! > Yes, that has been something that confuses the heck out of me in recent years! Over the years, I've learned about a lot of wonderful musicians and experience thrills and chills down my spine at musical discoveries. ... and also shared discussions of what we did and did not like about a performance or a new album. yes, there was a time when one could quite safely say that someone's new album just didn't seem up to the standard they had set on an earlier recording -- and back this up with "why" -- and not feel banished as some kind of a boor. I've also spent time being consciously perplexed about so-and-so, and why close friends are so keen about an artist & their music -- when I just don't "get" them. And chalk it up to individuals & individual taste. Much too often lately, I find read internet mailing lists or discussion groups about musical artists and wonder: Why would one be "offended" if another person didn't share one's tastes in music? and not be about differing opinions on food? or in cars? or in authors? or spots for vacation? Maybe because, for many participating actively on specific music topics on the net, music is an integral part of one's very psychological core. I know for me, there are artists whose music can both help me out of a bad/down mood and elevate me even higher in a good mood. And some who are specific 'cures' for certain moods. In a way that is deeper and definitely different than a great vacation spot, restaurant meal, or book. (ok, ok, I'm not a sports person, so I'm omitting that ) Maybe this 'too sensitive' thing is because our musical tastes really are "too close to home"?? dunno. This message is really an attempt at a positive 'take' on a subject that has grated on me in recent years, and turned me pretty much into a silent lurker on all music lists, rather than contributing reviews or commentaries on concerts or recordings. (including some quite solid smacks from folks when TBT came out and I enquired whether other participants on the list found the same shortcomings in the album in comparison to previous years of Susan's work. ) But was wondering if this 'deeper influence/connection' felt familiar to anyone else here? Regards, Carolyn Andre candre@house-of-music.com - ----------------------- Chicago, IL / USA Support Independent Music! Use the Internet http://house-of-music.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:16:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Leslie Dreyer Kalra Subject: Re: To each his own I'm not quoting Carolyn's message here, just for brevity, but I agree. Music is such a part of me that I feel like someone can't really know me unless s/he knows my music (and, I hope, likes it). It is endlessly frustrating to me that my husband, a non-musician, just doesn't "get" the whole music thing for me. That singing is not just something I want to do but something I *have* to do for my sanity. It is part of my psychological core, as Carolyn said so well. I think that's why we take it so personally when someone doesn't like our music. It's tantamount to them saying they don't like *us*, in so many words. I wonder, how many of you have a song running through your head all the time. I mean, if I were to come up to you out of the blue and ask you what song was in your head right that minute, could you immediately start singing it? I always have some song, but my husband does not, so I wonder how prevalent it is among musicians (as I believe many of us are)... leslie - -- Leslie Dreyer Kalra Techies, Inc. Computing and Internet lbd@techiesinc.com Consultant HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 08:32:40 -0700 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Fw: To each his own This is an interesting discussion, Carolyn. When Steve Murphy mentioned begin offended by the woman who said that Susan was "too cynical," my reaction was that I wouldn't be offended, because I could see how someone would think that and even if I couldn't, someone else's opinion of Susan really doesn't affect me. Especially if someone gave their reasoning, I would be inclined to say "Well that's interesting that you have that opinion." I have checked out several other artists after discovering this list, and some I think are great, and others I have not been that impressed with, or at least not as impressed as some of my friends that I correspond with about such things. It doesn't bother me. As to your question of why people take it so hard when you don't like their favorite artist, it could be that, as you suggest, they define who they are by the music they like, and if you don't like the music, you must not like them. Also, I must say that intolerance and oversensitivity to being "offended" seems to be growing in "polite society" generally -- as evidenced by the political correctness movement and the tendency to try to eradicate anything that could possibly offend anyone. I have a lot of different musical tastes. I occasionally mention Susan Werner on the Jefferson Airplane list. If those mentions arouse someone's interest, so be it. If not, fine. It did result in me getting a tape of some SW radio apprearances from an Airplane fan in Iowa whose wife loves Susan! People like to categorize, form groups, and look down on people outside their group; it's human nature. People want other people to be just like them. Makes them feel secure and validated, but when you think about it, it's pretty silly. I mean, they make those pink lawn flamingos because somebody likes them!!! - ---- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Andre" To: Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 8:10 PM Subject: Re: To each his own > Steve ended a message with: > > > >So that's the whole point here... The Folk Community is a very sensitive > bunch! > > > > Yes, that has been something that confuses the heck out of me in recent years! > > Over the years, I've learned about a lot of wonderful musicians and > experience thrills and chills down my spine at musical discoveries. ... and > also shared discussions of what we did and did not like about a performance > or a new album. yes, there was a time when one could quite safely say that > someone's new album just didn't seem up to the standard they had set on an > earlier recording -- and back this up with "why" -- and not feel banished > as some kind of a boor. > > I've also spent time being consciously perplexed about so-and-so, and why > close friends are so keen about an artist & their music -- when I just > don't "get" them. And chalk it up to individuals & individual taste. > > Much too often lately, I find read internet mailing lists or discussion > groups about musical artists and wonder: > Why would one be "offended" if another person didn't share one's tastes in > music? and not be about differing opinions on food? or in cars? or in > authors? or spots for vacation? > > Maybe because, for many participating actively on specific music topics on > the net, music is an integral part of one's very psychological core. > > I know for me, there are artists whose music can both help me out of a > bad/down mood and elevate me even higher in a good mood. And some who are > specific 'cures' for certain moods. In a way that is deeper and definitely > different than a great vacation spot, restaurant meal, or book. (ok, ok, > I'm not a sports person, so I'm omitting that ) > > Maybe this 'too sensitive' thing is because our musical tastes really are > "too close to home"?? > > dunno. This message is really an attempt at a positive 'take' on a subject > that has grated on me in recent years, and turned me pretty much into a > silent lurker on all music lists, rather than contributing reviews or > commentaries on concerts or recordings. (including some quite solid smacks > from folks when TBT came out and I enquired whether other participants on > the list found the same shortcomings in the album in comparison to previous > years of Susan's work. ) > > But was wondering if this 'deeper influence/connection' felt familiar to > anyone else here? > > Regards, > Carolyn Andre > candre@house-of-music.com > ----------------------- > Chicago, IL / USA > Support Independent Music! Use the Internet > http://house-of-music.com > > > > > HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org > Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com > > HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 14:21:57 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: To each his/her own Hi! Steve responded: >So that's the whole point here... The Folk Community is a very sensitive bunch! ... which is why I really don't consider myself part of it. I don't enjoy having to bite my tongue. As Carolyn noted, the folk music mailing lists have by and large become "positive only" fora, where nothing negative is condoned nor accepted as part of the conversation. That is very obstructionist, and presents a falsely shiny-happy view of the world. (This view has also extended into the print arena: the Long Island folk magazine "Music Matters Review" only prints positive reviews, period. That is the main reason why I never renewed my subscription.) People have differing opinions of things. What is wrong with expressing an opinion, so long as you can back up your reasoning and are civil about it? If I had said "David Roth sucks!" and left it at that, then yeah, I'd agree that was offensive and unnecessary. But I stated why he did absolutely nothing for me. I happily accept that Roth has many fans, both on this list and elsewhere, and while I happen to disagree, I'm not about to go over to your house and stick your copies of his CDs into the microwave or anything. Musical taste is a personal prerogative over which no one but oneself has any control. But differing opinions do exist, and can be the basis for intelligent and interesting discussion. Stifling opinions because someone out there might disagree blindly ignores the fact that we are not all the same. I'm not going to apologize for presenting an alternate opinion where other people could see it. I'm also not going to refrain from doing so in future. People have to learn to accept that not everyone is going to agree with them on everything. +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:55:06 -0700 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Fw: To each his/her own I don't know a lot about the "folk community," but I agree with Meredith here. All kinds of opinions should be accepted, especially if they are explained. As I said earlier, it's no skin off your teeth if someone doesn't like your favorite artist. I got flamed when I first posted to this list for suggesting that Susan might skewer someone in the audience with her "rapier-like wit." Some people won't even accept that Susan can be sharp with her quips at times. I do think that there is a tendency in parts of our culture right now (probably including the "folk community") not to accept anything negative -- even an honest or valid disagreement among list members. Things can be very different: On the Jefferson Airplane list some folks support Bush and capital punishment, while others want to overthrow capitalism and won't forgive the US for past genocide!! The other day there was a debate, prompted by the Supreme Court decision on the Boy Scouts about whether gays are more likely than straights to be pedophiles and whether gays are or are not better choices for supervising children's camping trips!!! ;-) > As Carolyn noted, the folk music mailing lists have by and large become > "positive only" fora, where nothing negative is condoned nor accepted as > part of the conversation. That is very obstructionist, and presents a > falsely shiny-happy view of the world. (This view has also extended into > the print arena: the Long Island folk magazine "Music Matters Review" only > prints positive reviews, period. That is the main reason why I never > renewed my subscription.) > > People have differing opinions of things. What is wrong with expressing an > opinion, so long as you can back up your reasoning and are civil about it? > If I had said "David Roth sucks!" and left it at that, then yeah, I'd agree > that was offensive and unnecessary. But I stated why he did absolutely > nothing for me. I happily accept that Roth has many fans, both on this > list and elsewhere, and while I happen to disagree, I'm not about to go > over to your house and stick your copies of his CDs into the microwave or > anything. > > Musical taste is a personal prerogative over which no one but oneself has > any control. But differing opinions do exist, and can be the basis for > intelligent and interesting discussion. Stifling opinions because someone > out there might disagree blindly ignores the fact that we are not all the > same. > > I'm not going to apologize for presenting an alternate opinion where other > people could see it. I'm also not going to refrain from doing so in > future. People have to learn to accept that not everyone is going to agree > with them on everything. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:35:08 -0400 From: "Mosh" Subject: likes and dislikes on july 7th, steve murphy wrote: <> if i may insert my own two cents here (again, don't want to start a flame war), i don't think we have the right to be offended by someone else's opinion. if she doesn't like susan, fine, she doesn't like susan. i know it may be difficult for us to comprehend, but not everyone likes susan. one of my best friends doesn't like susan (and, yes, she's still one of my best friends). conversely, she loves artists that i don't. so, when susan comes around, i ask someone else to go. to quote g love and special sauce, "yeah, it's that easy." i don't feel it's appropriate to say blanket statement to say, "oh, he sucks!" but to say that you simply don't like someone is perfectly acceptable and, to be honest, i actually encourage it. Steve also said, "When Mosh said "he wasn't my style"... I was prepared to make a tape of what I feel are my favorite David Roth songs and hand it to him next time I saw him." while i really appreciate the offer, i think you've got the wrong guy. i've never seen nor heard david roth (david LEE roth, yeah, and he was great!), so i'm not able to say whether i like him. but if you still want to make me a compilation, please make it a cd, as i don't really listen to tapes that much anymore (goin' high tech here). rock on! MOSH drebin: "do you think you can beat the champ?" briggs: "i can take him blindfolded." drebin: "what if he's not blindfolded?" briggs: "well, i can still beat him!" HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:54:24 EDT From: PBCoustic@aol.com Subject: Re: musical likes/dislikes ...an interesting discourse on musical tastes... and an excellent comparison to food, actually... It also reminds me of a note I got from DonCon a while back, when he said that both he and Susan had been "dissed" at one of the high-powered Kerrville Folk Festival camps their first time there... amazing to consider, no? Paul HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:59:16 -0700 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: likes and dislikes > if i may insert my own two cents here (again, don't want to start a flame > war), I think I would call it a discussion, although some of the more sensitive among us may call it a "flame war." > one of my best friends doesn't like susan (and, yes, she's still one of my best > friends). conversely, she loves artists that i don't. so, when susan comes > around, i ask someone else to go. to quote g love and special sauce, "yeah, > it's that easy." Have you called Dr. Laura about this relationship? It's obviously completely unheathy and should be ended at once. It not only goes against everything in the Bible, it's a violation of the laws of biology. ;-) > while i really appreciate the offer, i think you've got the wrong guy. i've > never seen nor heard david roth (david LEE roth, yeah, and he was great!), David Lee Roth sucks. ;-) > so i'm not able to say whether i like him. but if you still want to make me > a compilation, please make it a cd, as i don't really listen to tapes that > much anymore (goin' high tech here). OK, so let me get this straight, Steve Murhpy is doing a bootleg CD tree of David Roth tunes. Sign me up. Blanks plus postage? ;-) HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V4 #120 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message