From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V3 #232 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Monday, November 1 1999 Volume 03 : Number 232 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- Pronoun Problem ["Frank and/or Mary Linn" ] Re: Pronoun Problem [Katherine Rossner ] Re: Pronoun Problem ["Charisse D. Lowe" ] falcon ridge review [meredith ] that/whom [shear madness ] Re: Pronoun Problem [Rob Piester ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:01:05 -0500 From: "Frank and/or Mary Linn" Subject: Pronoun Problem St. Mary's of Regret remains one of my all time favorites. I think it's the very best the-one-that-got-away songs ever written. With that said, could someone please tell me why SW chose to use the pronoun "that" instead of "who" in the line "And the lovers that we lose..." The grammar books tell use to use the relative pronoun "who" when, in a subordinate clause, we refer to people. Please don't dismiss this as nitpicking. Perhaps she had a good reason, i.e., she didn't what "who" to rhyme with "lose." I respectfully request a response to my question from someone who (not "that") monitors this list. Thank you. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:17:45 -0500 From: Katherine Rossner Subject: Re: Pronoun Problem At 11:01 AM 10/31/99 -0500, Frank and/or Mary Linn wrote: >St. Mary's of Regret remains one of my all time favorites. I think it's the >very best the-one-that-got-away songs ever written. > >With that said, could someone please tell me why SW chose to use the pronoun >"that" instead of "who" in the line "And the lovers that we lose..." The >grammar books tell use to use the relative pronoun "who" when, in a >subordinate clause, we refer to people. "That" is actually correct here, though I'm not sure how to explain why. (Actually, I don't think it's a subordinate clause in the song; "the lovers, whom we lose, [do whatever]" would be a subordinate clause.) Well, OK, "the lovers whom we lose" would have been equally correct--but maybe SW wanted to avoid the apparent pedantry of "whom"? >Please don't dismiss this as nitpicking. Perhaps she had a good reason, >i.e., she didn't what "who" to rhyme with "lose." I respectfully request a >response to my question from someone who (not "that") monitors this list. I agree that "who" sounds better here--oh, maybe that's it: there it *is* a subordinate clause, "who monitors this list", with "who" as the subject, whereas "lovers that/whom we lose" is all one object. Katherine, ever in favor of grammatical nitpicking - -- Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge Us thinketh hem, and yet they spake hem so. - Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde" HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:27:43 -0600 From: "Charisse D. Lowe" Subject: Re: Pronoun Problem I think it may be nothing more than literary license. "That" sings better than "who" in that particular line. Charisse of Oz -----Original Message----- From: Frank and/or Mary Linn To: believers@smoe.org Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 12:56 PM Subject: Pronoun Problem >St. Mary's of Regret remains one of my all time favorites. I think it's the >very best the-one-that-got-away songs ever written. > >With that said, could someone please tell me why SW chose to use the pronoun >"that" instead of "who" in the line "And the lovers that we lose..." The >grammar books tell use to use the relative pronoun "who" when, in a >subordinate clause, we refer to people. > >Please don't dismiss this as nitpicking. Perhaps she had a good reason, >i.e., she didn't what "who" to rhyme with "lose." I respectfully request a >response to my question from someone who (not "that") monitors this list. > >Thank you. > > > > >HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org >Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com > HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:51:34 -0500 From: meredith Subject: falcon ridge review Hi! Just thought I'd alert everyone that there's an excellent overview of this year's Falcon Ridge Folk Festival at the Folk-Tales site, at . Anyone who wants to relive the experience, or wants to get a sense of what this wonderful weekend was like, should definitely check it out. +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:00:13 -0600 From: shear madness Subject: that/whom i'm all in favor of grammatical nitpicking. i despise illiteracy. i'm also a songwriter, and i think that som non-grammatical choices are justified when they're made consciously and in the name of aesthetics and/or prosody. i'm not convinced that "that" is grammatically incorrect in this context... and i couldn't explain why. i'll have to ask my mom, who is a professional editor. in any case, though, who or whom would absolutely not work in this line... try singing the line with either one. it sounds terrible... definitely one of the most brilliantly clever songs of all time, but so many of susan's are... her talent is staggering. on that we all agree, i'm sure. sleepless in san francisco HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:35:43 -0800 (PST) From: Rob Piester Subject: Re: Pronoun Problem At the risk of getting inside SW's head: A common expression about failed romances is that there are always more fish in the sea. A fisherman's colloquial retelling of a an almost catch refers to "the one that got away." Also, I like the alliterative phrasing of "the" with "that" rather than "the" with "who/whom" Just my two cents. - --- "Charisse D. Lowe" wrote: > I think it may be nothing more than literary > license. "That" sings better > than "who" in that particular line. > > Charisse of Oz > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank and/or Mary Linn > To: believers@smoe.org > Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 12:56 PM > Subject: Pronoun Problem > > > >St. Mary's of Regret remains one of my all time > favorites. I think it's the > >very best the-one-that-got-away songs ever written. > > > >With that said, could someone please tell me why SW > chose to use the > pronoun > >"that" instead of "who" in the line "And the lovers > that we lose..." The > >grammar books tell use to use the relative pronoun > "who" when, in a > >subordinate clause, we refer to people. > > > >Please don't dismiss this as nitpicking. Perhaps > she had a good reason, > >i.e., she didn't what "who" to rhyme with "lose." I > respectfully request a > >response to my question from someone who (not > "that") monitors this list. > > > >Thank you. > > > > > > > > > >HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to > believers@smoe.org > >Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at > songs.com > > > > > HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to > believers@smoe.org > Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at > songs.com > > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V3 #232 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message