From: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org (believers-digest) To: believers-digest@smoe.org Subject: believers-digest V3 #173 Reply-To: believers@smoe.org Sender: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-believers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk believers-digest Sunday, August 15 1999 Volume 03 : Number 173 In Today's believer's digest: ----------------- RE: singing along (yet again) ["Murphy, Steve" ] Re: Shirley [Peter K Martel ] paradigm shift [shear madness ] Fw: Shirley ["Ron Rosen" ] Fw: Susan Says... (Was Re: Singing & Dancing) ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Susan Says... (Was Re: Singing & Dancing) ["Tim Dunleavy" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:58:01 -0400 From: "Murphy, Steve" Subject: RE: singing along (yet again) Bearded one *does* exist. We've seen him (in New Bedford) and the title certianly fits him. Mosh, we have beards... He has a BEARD! I sing along in my head and sometimes go into a trance but I never utter a sound.... I am so glad I finally got LOTGSG. I love it. I was kind of afraid to buy anything besides TBT because I feared that nothing could compare - but this does. The whole album is wonderful. I currently hung up on "Still Believe" and "St Mary's of Regret"... I do that when I get new albums, obsess over one or two cuts - then move on to others - so it feels newer longer. I can't believe the Bull Run wasn't packed to the walls friday night. She is... dare I use this word?... Perfection! I thought that before, but I know it now. also - sorry I messed up the names of the characters (from "Still Believe") in yesterday's comment (I said Lucy instead of Laura) Take care all, Steve - -----Original Message----- From: Mosh [mailto:moshman@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 2:16 AM To: believers Subject: singing along (yet again) okay, first of all, charlie wrote, "Hard to envision a Dar Williams show where the audience doesn't sing the chorus of "Iowa", isn't it?" yeah, but dar always makes us sing along on "iowa". we never have a choice. you'll notice that we don't sing along on "mortal city". anyway, my basic ground rule is that i'll only sing if i can't hear myself. granted that's usually only at a show like van halen or melissa etheridge, but i know that if i can't hear myself, then i won't be bothering anyone else. if it's a quieter show, i'll sync along, rather than sing along. a great example of this is when i saw bruce hornsby last fall. the guy behind me was singing along to everything. the problem there (aside from the fact that he didn't sing all that well to begin with) was that the guy behind me was singing the album versions and bruce wasn't. this made it even more disconcerting. we all know how susan changes things around, so i can easily see how the person next to you singing along can be very annoying. dancing, it's a mob rules mentality. when the majority of the crowd is up, i can't complain. when it's just two people in the fifth row, then i've got a problem (saturday night live did a skit about that years ago, i believe). as for the "generation" aspect, i don't know. i'm twenty-eight. am i old or am i young? i'd like to think i'm young, but when i see sarah mclachlan, and hear all these kids screaming "i love you, sarah!" at the top of their lungs at the most inappropriate places (like in the middle of "angel" or "i will remember you"), i think, "damn, these youngsters just don't know how to enjoy a show". maybe i'm just in limbo. now, as to the bull run show, i think that i had almost as much fun hanging out with everyone as i did watching susan. these pins really work quite well! my final theory is that "the bearded one" doesn't really exist, or, if he does, he never goes out. i think he just enjoys knowing that whenever i (or steve or rick...) go to a susan show, someone will walk up and say "are you 'the bearded one'?" i think he thrives on this somehow ;-)> Rock on! MOSH "tried to get ahead but only got decapitated" - "Shut Down" Soul Asylum HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:45:07 -0400 From: Peter K Martel Subject: Re: Shirley >Gail wrorte: >Looked for you bearded one, you missed a great show! Damn right I did. >Ron wrote: >...To me it's a no brainer, and I don't even understand >why it needs to be discussed....it seems to me that when given >a choice of two behaviors, we should refrain from the one with >the potential for interfering with other people's enjoyment... >But if I go expecting to sit in a chair and hear Susan >Werner sing and play, then I have a right to expect >that is what I'll get. It is a "brainer". What if I go expecting to sing (quietly) and dance (off to the side)? Sitting still and quiet would interfere with my enjoyment. You are right. We mostly agree but It ain't black and white. But please do keep the trumpet (and bass, and drums) at home, if you don't mind. It is good to realize that not everyone thinks the same way. Perhaps it is good to realize that some folks like to quietly sing along and that it might be rude to turn around and glare at them. Born a little early? It ain't a generation thing. Just different ways of being. Martin Sexton and Dar Williams have fans that dance off to the side. First time I saw it I thought they were annoying. Then I remembered to put on my paradigm shift glasses and all was fine. :-) No one wants to annoy anyone. But then blue hair annoys many. Geez, anyone old enough to remember those annoying hippies from the sixties??? :-) The point is we can enjoy life in different ways, even if sometimes they conflict. Want to be sure folks who feel "different" feel welcome to express that difference. Another anecdote: At my first Susan show, the opener (one of those Aztec 2 Step guys) was doing his thing. I walked into the back of the room (a church) and this woman was enthusiastically but quietly dancing in place and quietly playing the "drums" on a table with a couple of cards, really getting into the music. Maybe I should have been annoyed; it was Susan and damn if she wasn't having a great time and damned if I was going to interfere with her enjoyment. Maybe we should have believer paradigm shift glasses (they would have blinders) to go with those pins. :-) And how about a direct connection to the sound system with noice cancelling head phones. Sorry if my dancing offends. I'll do it to the side or rear. (I don't really dance that often anyway). And I'll try to sing so softly that no one hears. "How can we keep from singing?" We are "believers" after all. Rejoice. :-) >MOSH wrote: >my final theory is that "the bearded one" doesn't really exist, or, if he >does, he never goes out. i think he just enjoys knowing that whenever i (or >steve or rick...) go to a susan show, someone will walk up and say "are you >'the bearded one'?" i think he thrives on this somehow ;-)> I have to admit it is great fun to hear about other hairy faces being asked such a silly question. You mean "the" bearded one? You see "we" do exist. Funny thing though, I was thinking of shaving for the millennium. "Were you The Bearded One?" :-) HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:01:52 -0500 From: shear madness Subject: paradigm shift hats off to you, peter martel i've been reading this singing and dancing along thing in stunned silence since it started. you are the first person to be both fair and compassionate. i wish i had thought to write it, but i couldn't find the right way to express my thoughts. you did it for me. thanks. i hope yours is the final word. sleepless in san francisco HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:50:59 -0700 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Fw: Shirley >It is a "brainer". What if I go expecting to sing (quietly) and dance >(off to the side)? Sitting still and quiet would interfere with my >enjoyment. You are right. We mostly agree but It ain't black and white. >But please do keep the trumpet (and bass, and drums) at home, if you >don't mind. It is good to realize that not everyone thinks the same way. >Perhaps it is good to realize that some folks like to quietly sing along >and that it might be rude to turn around and glare at them. But I AM going to go expecting to play my instruments and dance in the front on my wooden dance floor ;-)). Okay, we've beaten this to death, but it seems clear to me that the social compact requires that the behavior that would impinge on the other is the one that must be sacrificed. Sitting quietly and not singing is not offensive to any. Singing quietly may be a problem to someone, and in my opinion, telliing the singer to refrain would not be rude because the singer is annoying the others, not the other way around. Well, this will just have to be solved when we all get together in Hemingway/Fitzgerald style. As Woody Allen recounts in "Without Feathers" "First Hemingway punched Fitzgerald in the nose. Then Fitzgerald punched Hemingway in the nose." I do believe that the social compact is breaking down and that American culture is, notwithstanding the existence of the likes of Susan Werner, on the decline. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:05:37 -0700 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Fw: Susan Says... (Was Re: Singing & Dancing) >SW: Well, his stuff is just so singable. I mean, he's writing these-- >[singing] "I'm goin' down to Lebanon, Tennessee"-- I mean, it's just so >singable. And there's not a lot of that stuff out there, and when you hear >it, I drive off the road, I hear something like that. So Ron, you know, I >just think he's terrific. >MT: And there's so much open space in his records. >SW: Yeah, lots of room. That's right. > >So, your move. I think it goes without saying that another performer is in a different category than an audience member. That's sort of charming and special. Some people might even find another performer's harmonies annoying, but it has a certain legitimacy. On the other hand, Jaco Pastorius, the great jazz bass player (with Weather Report) used to get drunk and insist that he be allowed to sit in when he went to see other bands. One night it got ugly, someone took him out front and punched him out, he fell on his head, cracked his skull and died. In line with Tim's Ron Sexsmith story: The first time I saw Susan, she was playing in the round at the Bluebird Cafe in Nashville. Four singers sit in a circle in the center of the room, each with a guitar and mike, and they take turns going around the circle, each taking one song at a time. At some point, Susan started to play some soft guitar leads while another singer was singing. I thought this was particularly cool and ballsy of her. No one else did it. She just felt like doing it, and it was ok. Maybe the other singer didn't like it, who knows? I liked it. In fact, when I was chatting with Susan after the performance I said, "You're not afraid to play along when the other guy's playing." I was impressed. But don't forget, she was one of the performers and had a certain license. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:50:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Burgess Subject: "the big C" Hi Steve and Karen, Just wanted to let you know that "Still Believe" is my favorite SW song, and always has been, even before "the big C" came to call for my Mom last summer. She's doing great now, but the song still has incredible resonance for me. I think that's what's so great about Susan's music--the songs really MEAN something, and most of them have something to say to just about anybody. . .y'know? Hope everything is going well for you guys. Take care of each other and keep your love strong. (My husband and I are doing that after our apartment burned two weeks ago; our love is keeping us sane and helping us cope.) Blessings, Laura Burgess (as in, "Laura lost her bearings when she lost her illusions. . .") _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:58:21 -0400 From: "Tim Dunleavy" Subject: Re: Susan Says... (Was Re: Singing & Dancing) Ron Rosen wrote: >I think it goes without saying that another performer is in a different >category than an audience member. That's sort of charming and special. >In fact, when I was chatting >with Susan after the performance I said, "You're not afraid to play along >when the other guy's playing." I was impressed. But don't forget, she was >one of the performers and had a certain license. Wow... not to be difficult here, but this is the second person (one wrote to me privately) who missed the point of the Ron Sexsmith story. I was trying to be ironic, but taken out of context, my quote from the interview may have been too subtle. Anyway, the point was that during Ron's concert, Susan sat down at the DJ's table and sang harmonies that only the people sitting near her could hear. The DJ was so impressed he asked her to come on the radio show. Peter Martel's story about Susan dancing during another person's set made the same point I was trying to make. Ah well, bygones. - -Tim HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:12:35 -0700 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Fw: Susan Says... (Was Re: Singing & Dancing) Tim wrote: >Wow... not to be difficult here, but this is the second person (one wrote >to me privately) who missed the point of the Ron Sexsmith story. I was trying >to be ironic, but taken out of context, my quote from the interview may >have been too subtle. But didn't you like my story about Susan playing guitar leads during other people's songs at the Bluebird? At the Bluebird, it also happens that a singer in the audience will sing harmonies along with the on-stage performer, but they all know each other and it's just part of the scene. Sorry for missing your point, but it wasn't exactly clear who could hear the harmonies. But still, if it's Susan doing it, I'm less likely to mind than if it's just Joe Jones with no voice, eh? Ron. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:27:01 -0400 From: "Tim Dunleavy" Subject: Re: Susan Says... (Was Re: Singing & Dancing) OK, gotcha. Again, sorry that I was unclear. Susan, come and sit in with me sometime! Play guitar, sing, whatever you want. On that, we can all agree. :>) - -Tim - -----Original Message----- From: Ron Rosen >But didn't you like my story about Susan playing guitar leads during other >people's songs at the Bluebird? At the Bluebird, it also happens that a >singer in the audience will sing harmonies along with the on-stage >performer, but they all know each other and it's just part of the scene. >Sorry for missing your point, but it wasn't exactly clear who could hear the >harmonies. But still, if it's Susan doing it, I'm less likely to mind than >if it's just Joe Jones with no voice, eh? Ron. HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:18:15 -0400 From: Paul Kim Subject: surely, ma, you don't want me to dance What a joy. Joy. Happy happy. It was to see Susan at the Bull Run. I'm too lazy to give my review of the show. Let's just say that Susan and Jane were plain wacky (oooh...oxymoron). I liked the slightly different guitaring (yay, participlization) on Brazil during the "jackfruit trees" part...it was nice to hear her pull out "Fall From Grace" again (i hadn't heard it in a while)...after she did "La Vie en Rose", I was tempted to request "La Habanera" and "I'm in Love Again" and "Ain't Misbehavin'" and "I Want You to Want Me"...but I refrained. It woulda been a long concert if she'd played everything that everyone wanted her to ;) Oh, if you didn't stick around, we had a nice round table discussion/therapy group with susan. And we got kicked out of the Bull Run for overstaying our welcome. And now : My contribution to this highly civilized flamewar. :) Personally, I find it unnerving when people around me sing along with the performer in a voice that is loud enough to be heard by me unless a) the performer has exhorted the audience to sing along or b) the song is such a well known piece that most people know it and there is an inherent group singability for it. Of course, it depends on the performer and type of concert as well. Go to a popular concert such as a Sarah McLachlan or a Barenaked Ladies, and you're gonna have to deal with screaming fans singing at the top of their lungs...heck, the sound system is turned up loud enough that you really can't hear the person next to you anyways. Go to a festival type concert of any sort, and the normal "etiquette" for concerts goes out the door; you can get anything at a festival. Go to a bar, and you'll probably find half the audience there just to have some drinks and chat away over the performer. You go see Moxy Fruvous or the Nields or any number of traditional folk musics (whether it be Ireland-which is where I believe the example of a people who are expected to sing along was placed, the US, Germany, or anywhere else), and you expect a boisterous time - lots of dancing and singing. It's just an excercise of common courtesy (which does seem to be lacking in the world in general) to dance in an inconspicuous place if the occasion calls for it, to sing softly if the song moves you, but to be conscious of those around you. I was at one of the Barenaked Ladies concerts they did at the Tweeter Center in MA back in July, and there was one guy sitting a two rows in front of me and my sister who stood during the whole concert and did not budge. He didn't even dance or show any inspiration of beat or melody, but he refused to sit down despite our yelling at him to lower himself. It was frustrating to say the least. At least he wasn't standing when the openers the Beautiful South were happily blasting away. At 01:45 PM 8/15/99 -0400, Peter K Martel wrote: >Perhaps it is good to realize that some folks like to quietly sing along >and that it might be rude to turn around and glare at them. I don't see how it's rude to glare at someone who is annoying me. There are different ways to handle a situation, including glaring, rolling the eyes, asking them to be quiet, telling them to be quiet, yelling at them to shut up, throwing assorted fishes at their head...or just sitting there meekly because you don't want to offend, and having to sit through their indulgence which is upsetting your enjoyment of the show (and it's probably upsetting others around you, but they're too meek to say anything too). now, if you've struggled this far, let's get tongue-in-cheeky for a second: >Martin >Sexton and Dar Williams have fans that dance off to the side. First time >I saw it I thought they were annoying. I still do find it annoying. You poor, poor white people. My observance : most white people can't dance, especially if they are folk music fans. hell, I think that most white music just doesn't lend itself to dancing that much, unless it's primarily a dancing music (swing, some jazz, jigs, reels, hungarian dances, the electric slide, backstreet boys, techno). Sure, you can tap your foot to it, you can wiggle your butt, you can pogo, you can mosh (no, that doesn't mean get free stuff from Sam Goody), you can pump your fist in the air (like you just don't care), etc....but come on. Until they start teaching people how to bust a move to, oh, I don't know, "Time Between Trains", you keep your butt in the chair and you let it hop around there. :) Seriously, discreet dancing, unobtrusive dancing, dancing that keeps with the rhythm and style of the piece, they're ok with me. Using the same two dance moves for every single style of music is annoying to me; doing that "dancing with my hands, my arms like vines, i'm spinning like i'm drugged, i'm so blissed out" dance is annoying to me; doing that "spastic, orgiastic, kunf-fu killer, totally-free interpretive dance class" dance is annoying to me; doing the "i have no rhythm and i have no coordination" dance is annoying to me. But hey, I'm me. I'm highly critical and easily annoyed and, well, pretty mean-spirited when it comes right down to it. I'm sure some of you will take offense to this diatribe. Sorry. I guess i call it like I see it. And i make fun of it. Because it's funny. :) >Then I remembered to put on my >paradigm shift glasses and all was fine. :-) No one wants to annoy >anyone. But then blue hair annoys many. Heyyyyy...oh..wait..my hair isn't blue anymore. :) Hell, the blue was annoying me too...primarily because I had to keep redyeing it every week and a half...the purple lasted a little longer. oh, and i can tell you that jane and susan found blue hair to be pretty cool. hee hee. shifting paradigms now *Bzzt* oh, wow...man, white people are the hippest dancers in the world! Paul "come on sherlyn, asian powers activate!" Kim HELP! owner-believers@smoe.org Send mail to believers@smoe.org Susan's CD's are available on your desktop at songs.com ------------------------------ End of believers-digest V3 #173 ******************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- This has been a posting from the Susan Werner believers-digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe believers-digest" in the body of the message