From: owner-basia-digest@smoe.org (basia-digest) To: basia-digest@smoe.org Subject: basia-digest V8 #72 Reply-To: basia@smoe.org Sender: owner-basia-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-basia-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "basia-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. basia-digest Saturday, June 21 2003 Volume 08 : Number 072 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Guitarist analogies ["Paxety Pages" ] Re: one guitarist vs. another ["Dennis J. Majewicz" ] Re: Guitarist analogies ["" ] Re: one guitarist vs. another ["" ] Re: one guitarist vs. another ["" ] Re: Guitarist analogies [Stephen Ylvisaker ] Re: one guitarist vs. another ["Dennis J. Majewicz" ] RE: one guitarist vs. another [dregsfan@bcpl.net] RE: one guitarist vs. another ["pineking@gwi.net" ] Re: one guitarist vs. another ["" ] Re: one guitarist vs. another ["" ] RE: one guitarist vs. another ["Alan Mann" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:25:54 -0400 From: "Paxety Pages" Subject: Re: Guitarist analogies And Jimi learned a tremendous amount of his playing from a guitarist I knew slightly by the name of Johnny Jenkins. Johnny played in Otis Redding's original backup band, The Pinetoppers. Johnny was from Macon, Georgia, as was Otis. Jimi played in Otis' band for a while, but I'm not sure they were still called The Pinetoppers then. Johnny tried to have a solo career some five or six years before Jimi became famous, but I don't think the world was ready for such a thing yet. His recordings went nowhere, and I'm not sure what happened to him. un abrazo, juan *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 6/20/03 at 8:58 PM JPovlock@aol.com wrote: >And while I've been stumping for LC the past couple days, I wouldn't >disagree >about Jimi. > >Jim P. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:35:34 -0400 From: "Dennis J. Majewicz" Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another Finally some balanced views from Bob and Thelma. Thank you. This is entirely a subjective judgement process. While I really like Larry Carlton, (I have many of his recordings) there are others equally talented today and in the past. Different styles, certainly, but talented nonetheless. We tend to think in the here and now, so consider some of his contemporaries. I think one of the absolute best is Lee Ritenour: prolific composer, is at home with many styles of music and has been a top artist for many years. I'm not a huge fan of Peter White, but you can't deny his popularity. He's been riding the crest of the smooth jazz wave for a long time. He's obviously good at what he does, even if it is a niche market. In the same vein, Earl Klugh has a wonderful touch with the acoustic guitar. There are dozens of marvelous session players who may never get a chance at the limelight, though some who have emerged into solo careers are starting to take hold. I'm thinkng of Paul Jackson, Jr., Norman Brown, or Doc Powell, and the like. Let's go back in time now. How can we not consider the late Chet Atkins? Possibly the best of all time (not that I liked country music, but he did all kinds of work), and I suspect that if you asked Larry, he would say that he was inspired and influenced by Chet. Someone mentioned Jimi Hendrix. Most of you are too young to know what an impact he had on rock in the 60's. Sadly, he died too young for us to know where he might have taken his talent. Speaking of dying before his time, we have to acknowledge Wes Montgomery. A masterful guitarist who changed the direction of jazz in the 60's. He gets my vote as one of the best of all time. Going back even further into ancient history, how many are familiar with Django Reinhardt? He was a jazz pioneer who gave the genre direction in the 20's and later. He was an amazing man given that he could really only use two fingers on is left hand due to an accident. The instruments were crude in those days, compared to modern guitars, but his talent surely came through on those old recordings! The bottom line is: I don't know how anyone can choose a "best" guitarist. It's what ultimately appeals to you. Thankfully there are so many styles to choose from, that it's enjoyable to give them all a listen. By the way, just to keep some Basia content here, a lot of her music is being played on Sirius Satellite Radio, though it's all pre TSI. They happen to play a lot of Matt Bianco, too. I wrote to one of the stream architects suggesting they add "Half A Minute" by MB to their playlist. (Dare I say it's the BEST version? Naww, it's my personal favorite version, though.) He said they wold look for it, but as yet I haven't heard it. Best to all on the list, Dennis (never had a Roach problem, so he's still OK in my book) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Rumsby" To: Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:03 AM Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another > > At 04:41 PM 6/20/03 -0500, you wrote: > > >Again I don't want to berate Peter White as I like him, but comparing him > >to Larry Carlton is like comparing Kenny Gee to Coltrane > > > >dm&fs > > > There are various saying that cover this subject and they include; > > Different strokes for different folks. > > Opinions are like noses. Everybody has one > > bfn > BobR > Hawthorne, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:53:31 -0500 From: "" Subject: Re: Guitarist analogies Hendrix was asked one time what is was like being the best guitarist in the world. His response was "I don't know. Ask Phil Keaggy". Hendrix was very good, no doubt. But if you are judging LC by the songs you hear on the radio, then don't. I have all his albums on CD, including ones that go way back to the beginning of his career. Like I said earlier, go to the Larry Carlton website and read his bio. It's amazing. The stuff of his you hear on the radio may be comparable to Grover Washington Jr., but his chops go WAY beyond that. He doesn't flash his abilities all the time like other speed players, but he can play as fast as any of them. I heard and seen him do it. And the licks he has at his disposal are a lot more complex than most people would realize. People might think he and Lee Ritenour are about the same. But when I watch Ritenour ripping through a fast solo, he is obviously pushing himself to his limit. Carlton does the same looking like he is barely close to his limit. B.R. Quoting "" : > > And while I've been stumping for LC the past couple days, I wouldn't disagree > > about Jimi. > > Jim P. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:53:31 -0500 From: "" Subject: Re: Guitarist analogies Hendrix was asked one time what is was like being the best guitarist in the world. His response was "I don't know. Ask Phil Keaggy". Hendrix was very good, no doubt. But if you are judging LC by the songs you hear on the radio, then don't. I have all his albums on CD, including ones that go way back to the beginning of his career. Like I said earlier, go to the Larry Carlton website and read his bio. It's amazing. The stuff of his you hear on the radio may be comparable to Grover Washington Jr., but his chops go WAY beyond that. He doesn't flash his abilities all the time like other speed players, but he can play as fast as any of them. I heard and seen him do it. And the licks he has at his disposal are a lot more complex than most people would realize. People might think he and Lee Ritenour are about the same. But when I watch Ritenour ripping through a fast solo, he is obviously pushing himself to his limit. Carlton does the same looking like he is barely close to his limit. B.R. Quoting "" : > > And while I've been stumping for LC the past couple days, I wouldn't disagree > > about Jimi. > > Jim P. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:12:35 -0500 From: "" Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another Thanks for the insult. In my "unbalanced" opinion, Larry Carlton is at the top os the list. It is not totally subjective. My guitar teacher went to the Guitar Institute in CA. He can play rock, jazz, and country very well. He is in awe of Larry Carlton. He explained why to me. It is difficult to adequately explain it in this forum. One of the things that sets LC apart is his phrasing. Many players have tried to copy him. Django Reinhardt is embarassing to the rest of us who have five good fingers to use. Wes Montgomery was a pioneer in octave playing and didn't use a pick. There are many very good players. But there are a few at the top. The music world knows this. This discussion reminds me of a time Whoopi Goldberg introduced Kenny G as the best musician in the world. I almost had a stroke. She obviously doesn't know anything about musicianship. Pat Metheny, who is normally laid back, went into a tirade about Kenny G a few years back. I don't blame him. B.R. Quoting "Dennis J. Majewicz" : > > Finally some balanced views from Bob and Thelma. Thank you. > > This is entirely a subjective judgement process. While I really like Larry > Carlton, (I have many of his recordings) there are others equally talented > today and in the past. Different styles, certainly, but talented > nonetheless. > > We tend to think in the here and now, so consider some of his > contemporaries. I think one of the absolute best is Lee Ritenour: prolific > composer, is at home with many styles of music and has been a top artist for > many years. > > I'm not a huge fan of Peter White, but you can't deny his popularity. He's > been riding the crest of the smooth jazz wave for a long time. He's > obviously good at what he does, even if it is a niche market. > > In the same vein, Earl Klugh has a wonderful touch with the acoustic guitar. > > There are dozens of marvelous session players who may never get a chance at > the limelight, though some who have emerged into solo careers are starting > to take hold. I'm thinkng of Paul Jackson, Jr., Norman Brown, or Doc Powell, > and the like. > > Let's go back in time now. How can we not consider the late Chet Atkins? > Possibly the best of all time (not that I liked country music, but he did > all kinds of work), and I suspect that if you asked Larry, he would say that > he was inspired and influenced by Chet. > > Someone mentioned Jimi Hendrix. Most of you are too young to know what an > impact he had on rock in the 60's. Sadly, he died too young for us to know > where he might have taken his talent. > > Speaking of dying before his time, we have to acknowledge Wes Montgomery. A > masterful guitarist who changed the direction of jazz in the 60's. He gets > my vote as one of the best of all time. > > Going back even further into ancient history, how many are familiar with > Django Reinhardt? He was a jazz pioneer who gave the genre direction in the > 20's and later. He was an amazing man given that he could really only use > two fingers on is left hand due to an accident. The instruments were crude > in those days, compared to modern guitars, but his talent surely came > through on those old recordings! > > The bottom line is: I don't know how anyone can choose a "best" guitarist. > It's what ultimately appeals to you. Thankfully there are so many styles to > choose from, that it's enjoyable to give them all a listen. > > By the way, just to keep some Basia content here, a lot of her music is > being played on Sirius Satellite Radio, though it's all pre TSI. They happen > to play a lot of Matt Bianco, too. I wrote to one of the stream architects > suggesting they add "Half A Minute" by MB to their playlist. (Dare I say > it's the BEST version? Naww, it's my personal favorite version, though.) He > said they wold look for it, but as yet I haven't heard it. > > Best to all on the list, > > Dennis > (never had a Roach problem, so he's still OK in my book) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Rumsby" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:03 AM > Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another > > > > > > At 04:41 PM 6/20/03 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Again I don't want to berate Peter White as I like him, but comparing him > > >to Larry Carlton is like comparing Kenny Gee to Coltrane > > > > > >dm&fs > > > > > > There are various saying that cover this subject and they include; > > > > Different strokes for different folks. > > > > Opinions are like noses. Everybody has one > > > > bfn > > BobR > > Hawthorne, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:12:35 -0500 From: "" Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another Thanks for the insult. In my "unbalanced" opinion, Larry Carlton is at the top os the list. It is not totally subjective. My guitar teacher went to the Guitar Institute in CA. He can play rock, jazz, and country very well. He is in awe of Larry Carlton. He explained why to me. It is difficult to adequately explain it in this forum. One of the things that sets LC apart is his phrasing. Many players have tried to copy him. Django Reinhardt is embarassing to the rest of us who have five good fingers to use. Wes Montgomery was a pioneer in octave playing and didn't use a pick. There are many very good players. But there are a few at the top. The music world knows this. This discussion reminds me of a time Whoopi Goldberg introduced Kenny G as the best musician in the world. I almost had a stroke. She obviously doesn't know anything about musicianship. Pat Metheny, who is normally laid back, went into a tirade about Kenny G a few years back. I don't blame him. B.R. Quoting "Dennis J. Majewicz" : > > Finally some balanced views from Bob and Thelma. Thank you. > > This is entirely a subjective judgement process. While I really like Larry > Carlton, (I have many of his recordings) there are others equally talented > today and in the past. Different styles, certainly, but talented > nonetheless. > > We tend to think in the here and now, so consider some of his > contemporaries. I think one of the absolute best is Lee Ritenour: prolific > composer, is at home with many styles of music and has been a top artist for > many years. > > I'm not a huge fan of Peter White, but you can't deny his popularity. He's > been riding the crest of the smooth jazz wave for a long time. He's > obviously good at what he does, even if it is a niche market. > > In the same vein, Earl Klugh has a wonderful touch with the acoustic guitar. > > There are dozens of marvelous session players who may never get a chance at > the limelight, though some who have emerged into solo careers are starting > to take hold. I'm thinkng of Paul Jackson, Jr., Norman Brown, or Doc Powell, > and the like. > > Let's go back in time now. How can we not consider the late Chet Atkins? > Possibly the best of all time (not that I liked country music, but he did > all kinds of work), and I suspect that if you asked Larry, he would say that > he was inspired and influenced by Chet. > > Someone mentioned Jimi Hendrix. Most of you are too young to know what an > impact he had on rock in the 60's. Sadly, he died too young for us to know > where he might have taken his talent. > > Speaking of dying before his time, we have to acknowledge Wes Montgomery. A > masterful guitarist who changed the direction of jazz in the 60's. He gets > my vote as one of the best of all time. > > Going back even further into ancient history, how many are familiar with > Django Reinhardt? He was a jazz pioneer who gave the genre direction in the > 20's and later. He was an amazing man given that he could really only use > two fingers on is left hand due to an accident. The instruments were crude > in those days, compared to modern guitars, but his talent surely came > through on those old recordings! > > The bottom line is: I don't know how anyone can choose a "best" guitarist. > It's what ultimately appeals to you. Thankfully there are so many styles to > choose from, that it's enjoyable to give them all a listen. > > By the way, just to keep some Basia content here, a lot of her music is > being played on Sirius Satellite Radio, though it's all pre TSI. They happen > to play a lot of Matt Bianco, too. I wrote to one of the stream architects > suggesting they add "Half A Minute" by MB to their playlist. (Dare I say > it's the BEST version? Naww, it's my personal favorite version, though.) He > said they wold look for it, but as yet I haven't heard it. > > Best to all on the list, > > Dennis > (never had a Roach problem, so he's still OK in my book) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Rumsby" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:03 AM > Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another > > > > > > At 04:41 PM 6/20/03 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Again I don't want to berate Peter White as I like him, but comparing him > > >to Larry Carlton is like comparing Kenny Gee to Coltrane > > > > > >dm&fs > > > > > > There are various saying that cover this subject and they include; > > > > Different strokes for different folks. > > > > Opinions are like noses. Everybody has one > > > > bfn > > BobR > > Hawthorne, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:32:26 -0700 From: Stephen Ylvisaker Subject: Re: Guitarist analogies Interestingly enough, Jimi Hendrix also learned from surf guitarist Dick Dale, "king of the surf guitar." For those that remember the Frankie Avalon and Annette Funicello Beach Party movies Dick Dale and his Deltones was the band in those movies. Anyway, Jimi Hendrix would go to Dick's shows to watch and listen and learn. Jimi was smart enough to understand he could learn from many people. Stephen On 6/21/03 4:25 AM, "Paxety Pages" wrote: > > And Jimi learned a tremendous amount of his playing from a guitarist I knew > slightly by the name of Johnny Jenkins. Johnny played in Otis Redding's > original backup band, The Pinetoppers. Johnny was from Macon, Georgia, as was > Otis. Jimi played in Otis' band for a while, but I'm not sure they were still > called The Pinetoppers then. Johnny tried to have a solo career some five or > six years before Jimi became famous, but I don't think the world was ready for > such a thing yet. His recordings went nowhere, and I'm not sure what happened > to him. > un abrazo, > juan > - -- Stephen Ylvisaker greyfell@gns2000.com "Never do business with pets you don't trust." Robert Kiyosaki, author of RICH DAD, POOR DAD ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 14:28:17 -0400 From: "Dennis J. Majewicz" Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another Hey, no insult intended. Just offering my opinion which apparently doesn't coincide with yours. That's what makes life interesting. "Balanced" referred to an opposing point of view - probably an unfortunate choice of words. I apologize for that. And just so you know, I really do like Larry Carlton. I certainly wouldn't go near a desert island without my Steely Dan recordings. (I believe he helped establish their distinctive sound...) But if I own more CD's by Chuck Loeb or Jeff Golub than I do by Larry, it's because I know what appeals to me, which I guess is the bottom line for anyone who goes into a store looking for a CD. For the record, I have never touched a guitar. Never took a music lesson in my life. I just know what I like to hear. Dennis - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "Dennis J. Majewicz" Cc: Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:12 PM Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another > Thanks for the insult. In my "unbalanced" opinion, Larry Carlton is at the top > os the list. It is not totally subjective. My guitar teacher went to the > Guitar Institute in CA. He can play rock, jazz, and country very well. He is > in awe of Larry Carlton. He explained why to me. It is difficult to > adequately explain it in this forum. One of the things that sets LC apart is > his phrasing. Many players have tried to copy him. > > Django Reinhardt is embarassing to the rest of us who have five good fingers to > use. Wes Montgomery was a pioneer in octave playing and didn't use a pick. > > There are many very good players. But there are a few at the top. The music > world knows this. This discussion reminds me of a time Whoopi Goldberg > introduced Kenny G as the best musician in the world. I almost had a stroke. > She obviously doesn't know anything about musicianship. Pat Metheny, who is > normally laid back, went into a tirade about Kenny G a few years back. I don't > blame him. > > B.R. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:13:26 EDT From: PParm16424@aol.com Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another Dennis, I loved what your last sentence in you last post. "For the record, I have never touched a guitar. Never took a music lesson in my life. I just know what I like to hear." And that is really the bottom line for anybody. It all boils down to what pleases the ear, regardless of some supposed or even real technical comparisons supposing to make someone "not" like an artist. As a college trained musician and composer, I realize all the technical specifics that music/musicians are supposed to aim for, but at the end of the day, all that really matters is what "floats your boat". Growing up, I was too busy trying to "like" only the music that as a Christian I was "supposed" to "like", and NOT "like" the kind I wasn't supposed to "like". That seemed to work for decades, but after I gave that kind of garbage up, I began to realize that I really like some "rockier" music than I had realized before. I, too, really go for Steely Dan, having found that out in my 40s, for crying out loud. So, what I am saying is that you cannot dictate or manipulate someone into liking something. We either do or we don't. I had had "Brave New Hope" for years, and knew that Basia was really great, but the "bug" didn't bite until after I got "Time and Tide" closely followed by "London, Warsaw, New York". I am now sufficiently blown away, and am looking forward to getting her earlier and later music. Alrighty then! Enough! Cheers! Phil/Michigan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:14:23 -0400 (EDT) From: dregsfan@bcpl.net Subject: Re: PW vs. Larry Carlton OK, I'm gonna weigh into this discussion, too. The terms "better" and "best" are kinda sticky. Yes, deciding who is the 'best' is largely subjective and a matter of personal opinion. Each person will have at least a slightly different scale of values than the next person, as it pertains to which guitarist (or any musician) is better than another. However, though certainly never completely agreed upon, there usually tend to be 'patterns' of who is considered "good" according to certain circles. For instance, people who play guitar already will probably have some degree of consensus on whom they feel are the "best" players, esp. if the guitarists work in the same genre. For instance, if you were talking to, say, a 20 jazz guitarists and asked them each who their 10 favorite guitarists were, you'd probably find some of the same names tending to come up on each of their lists. I think Pat Metheny and Larry Carlton would probably be mentioned often, along with other names that would appear conspicuously appear on several of their lists. But Peter White, though he might be mentioned by one or two, is more likely not to be mentioned at all. Don't get me wrong. I'm a guitarist myself. I LOVE Peter White and his playing (as well as his composition) and I think he's a GREAT guitarist. But I think that it will be harder to find as many people who will label him as one of the greatest ever. I think Peter is great at what he does. He knows his limits and tends to stay within them. I think it's great how he's carved out this little niche for himself in the so-called "smooth-jazz" genre. And he gets played alongside other "greats" like Metheny and Carlton. I would also say that Peter's music is a little more 'accessible' to the layperson or non-musician. Metheny and Carlton certainly make plenty of stuff that's accessible to the masses, too, but they also have a lot of daring stuff that is way OUT THERE, and maybe not so palatable to the general public. Peter's music is actually quite difficult to play, but he really touches people. And I have watched his audiences and CD sales grow over the years. But while many people are learning what a great guitarist he is, I believe many others just don't think about it so much. They just know they like his music overall. It's kinda funny that this subject has come up (esp. with Metheny's name being mentioned), because I recall having read something Peter posted on his own website a couple years back about how much he admired Pat Metheny and that he had just returned from one of Metheny's shows (as the average paying fan). He remarked how impressed he was with the whole thing, but afterward Metheny came out to meet & greet with fans, so Peter got in line. I think he said that he was getting an autograph just like everyone else. When he met Pat he said, "Hi, I'm Peter White." And Pat replied, "Oh, you mean 'THE Peter White--the guitarist?" Peter was quite impressed that Pat even knew who he was. Peter then asked Pat to take a photo with him and Pat agreed, and the photo was posted along with that story. I haven't checked lately, but I bet it's still buried in Peter's site somewhere. But the bottom line for me is that I believe Peter would be the first to tell you that he's not as 'good' as Metheny or Carlton. Peter would also point out that the comparison is perhaps a little unfair, as what Peter does is quite a bit different than the other two. People may not always agree on who is best, but labeling one musician as better than another is not always necessarily a bad thing. Joe in Baltimore ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:39:36 -0400 (EDT) From: dregsfan@bcpl.net Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another Well, this is an interesting thread. Now I'm gonna take it in a new direction. On another list I belong to (where guitar is much more the focus), we once got into a long discusion about the "birth order" placings of the "great" guitarists. Virtually everyone we could think of that was considered a a "great" guitarist--be they famous, or just popular with other guitarists - --was nearly always a "youngest child" in the family they were born into, or at least they were never the "oldest." Ironically the only guitarist I could even *think* of that was an oldest child was Peter White (he IS, oldest, isn't he?!). But here are some examples: The Kinks: Dave Davies, younger than Ray, is generally considered a much better guitarist than Ray. The Vaughn brothers: Jimmie Vaughn is a very accomplished guitarist, but Stevie Ray is widely regarded as much better than Jimmie. AC/DC: Angus Young plays the lead, while older brother Malcolm plays rhythm. The Schenker brothers (at one time both played for the Scorpions). Younger brother Michael is usually thought of as a better and flashier guitarist than his brother Rudolf. Steve Vai is the youngeset of three children. Eric Johnson is an only child. Pat Metheny's older brother Mike plays trumpet professionally, but Mike is not widely known. Nuno Bettencourt of Extreme was the youngest of 13 children. Steve Morse of the Dixie Dregs is the younger of 2 brothers. The Van Halen brothers: Alex is a great drummer, but Eddie is younger and vastly better recognized for his craft and innovation. George Harrison was the only youngest child in the Beatles and held down the role of lead guitarist because he could play a lot of lead parts that John & Paul couldn't. Tommy Emmanuel, one of the finest guitarists in Australia, has an older brother named Phil. Phil is widely regarded as a superb guitarist, but still not quite as good as Tommy. Christopher Parkening is an only child. Jimi Hendrix was youngest child. Allan Holdsworth is (I believe) an only child. Well, the list goes on...and so you ask, "Well, who ELSE is a great guitarist that is an OLDEST child?" When this came up on the other list the only ones anyone could come up with were Duane Allman and Frank Zappa. Anyone know any others? Oh, wait, I think Pete Towshend is oldest. What about Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Larry Carlton, and Richie Blackmore...and others? Anyone know? Joe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 21:49:15 +0100 From: "Alan Mann" Subject: RE: one guitarist vs. another Given that Basia's music has a Latin American influence, How does the group feel about Santana's contribution. Is he not worthy of inclusion in a listing of guitar greats? Alan Mann - --Original Message----- From: owner-basia@smoe.org [mailto:owner-basia@smoe.org]On Behalf Of dregsfan@bcpl.net Sent: 21 June 2003 21:40 To: basia@smoe.org Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another Well, this is an interesting thread. Now I'm gonna take it in a new direction. On another list I belong to (where guitar is much more the focus), we once got into a long discusion about the "birth order" placings of the "great" guitarists. Virtually everyone we could think of that was considered a a "great" guitarist--be they famous, or just popular with other guitarists - --was nearly always a "youngest child" in the family they were born into, or at least they were never the "oldest." Ironically the only guitarist I could even *think* of that was an oldest child was Peter White (he IS, oldest, isn't he?!). But here are some examples: The Kinks: Dave Davies, younger than Ray, is generally considered a much better guitarist than Ray. The Vaughn brothers: Jimmie Vaughn is a very accomplished guitarist, but Stevie Ray is widely regarded as much better than Jimmie. AC/DC: Angus Young plays the lead, while older brother Malcolm plays rhythm. The Schenker brothers (at one time both played for the Scorpions). Younger brother Michael is usually thought of as a better and flashier guitarist than his brother Rudolf. Steve Vai is the youngeset of three children. Eric Johnson is an only child. Pat Metheny's older brother Mike plays trumpet professionally, but Mike is not widely known. Nuno Bettencourt of Extreme was the youngest of 13 children. Steve Morse of the Dixie Dregs is the younger of 2 brothers. The Van Halen brothers: Alex is a great drummer, but Eddie is younger and vastly better recognized for his craft and innovation. George Harrison was the only youngest child in the Beatles and held down the role of lead guitarist because he could play a lot of lead parts that John & Paul couldn't. Tommy Emmanuel, one of the finest guitarists in Australia, has an older brother named Phil. Phil is widely regarded as a superb guitarist, but still not quite as good as Tommy. Christopher Parkening is an only child. Jimi Hendrix was youngest child. Allan Holdsworth is (I believe) an only child. Well, the list goes on...and so you ask, "Well, who ELSE is a great guitarist that is an OLDEST child?" When this came up on the other list the only ones anyone could come up with were Duane Allman and Frank Zappa. Anyone know any others? Oh, wait, I think Pete Towshend is oldest. What about Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Larry Carlton, and Richie Blackmore...and others? Anyone know? Joe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:58:46 -0400 (EDT) From: dregsfan@bcpl.net Subject: RE: one guitarist vs. another Hey Alan, I was just sorta giving a randome example of great guitarists according to birth order position in the families they grew up in. Yeah, Carlos Santana would be a good one to include, but I don't know his birth order. :( Do you? Joe On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Alan Mann wrote: > > Given that Basia's music has a Latin American influence, How does the group > feel about Santana's > contribution. Is he not worthy of inclusion in a listing of guitar greats? > > Alan Mann kkk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:26:28 -0400 From: "pineking@gwi.net" Subject: RE: one guitarist vs. another Whoa there, Dennis, old pal. SD's distinctive guitar had to have been Jeff "Skunk" Baxter. Baxter goes 'way back to the original Nitty Gritty Dirt Band lineup, when it was more a jug band than re-invented country. Larry Carlton didn't show up until AJA, as far as I know, but, there is no question Carlton lent his authority to Fagen's post-SD masterpiece 'The Nightfly' (every song of which a mini-masterpiece, especially, in my opinion, perhaps because of Carlton, The Goodbye Look). Baxter was, with Denny Dias, SD's string section. Here are a few of my guitar heroes: Stephen Stills Neil Young Steve Miller Vince Gill James Taylor Rusty Young (Poco) Tom Jobim Joni Mitchell John Fahey Jim Messina (Buffalo Springfield, Poco, Loggins & Messina) Gontiti (the Japanese acoustic duo) Ricky Skaggs & every other Nashville picker The two occasions I saw Peter with Basia impressed me with his versatility, super-competence, as well as stage presence. I think his licks in Drunk on Love are masterful, and that is on an electric. A thought: Carlton I think is considered a studio guy, while Peter is considered a performer. Would this have any bearing having them onstage together? It would be a great show, regardless. Phil > Hey, no insult intended. Just offering my opinion which apparently > doesn't coincide with yours. That's what makes life interesting. > "Balanced" referred to an opposing point of view - probably an > unfortunate choice of words. I apologize for that. > > And just so you know, I really do like Larry Carlton. I certainly > wouldn't go near a desert island without my Steely Dan recordings. (I > believe he helped establish their distinctive sound...) But if I own > more CD's by Chuck Loeb or Jeff Golub than I do by Larry, it's because > I know what appeals to me, which I guess is the bottom line for anyone > who goes into a store looking for a CD. > > For the record, I have never touched a guitar. Never took a music > lesson in my life. I just know what I like to hear. > > Dennis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:44:57 -0500 From: "" Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another I would never think of manipulating or dictating what people "should" like. I happen to like music that isn't always technically superior as well as the really complicated stuff. If you go back to some of LC's fusion CD's in the 80's, I think a lot of us on this list would be surprised how good it sounds now. The issue here is who is a better player. I like PW's stuff, but he still isn't even close to LC. B.R. Quoting "" : > > Dennis, > > I loved what your last sentence in you last post. > > "For the record, I have never touched a guitar. Never took a music lesson in > > my life. I just know what I like to hear." > > And that is really the bottom line for anybody. It all boils down to what > pleases the ear, regardless of some supposed or even real technical > comparisons > supposing to make someone "not" like an artist. As a college trained musician > > and composer, I realize all the technical specifics that music/musicians are > > supposed to aim for, but at the end of the day, all that really matters is > what > "floats your boat". > > Growing up, I was too busy trying to "like" only the music that as a > Christian I was "supposed" to "like", and NOT "like" the kind I wasn't > supposed to > "like". That seemed to work for decades, but after I gave that kind of > garbage > up, I began to realize that I really like some "rockier" music than I had > realized before. I, too, really go for Steely Dan, having found that out in > my 40s, > for crying out loud. So, what I am saying is that you cannot dictate or > manipulate someone into liking something. We either do or we don't. > > I had had "Brave New Hope" for years, and knew that Basia was really great, > but the "bug" didn't bite until after I got "Time and Tide" closely followed > by > "London, Warsaw, New York". I am now sufficiently blown away, and am looking > > forward to getting her earlier and later music. > > Alrighty then! Enough! > > Cheers! > > Phil/Michigan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:44:57 -0500 From: "" Subject: Re: one guitarist vs. another I would never think of manipulating or dictating what people "should" like. I happen to like music that isn't always technically superior as well as the really complicated stuff. If you go back to some of LC's fusion CD's in the 80's, I think a lot of us on this list would be surprised how good it sounds now. The issue here is who is a better player. I like PW's stuff, but he still isn't even close to LC. B.R. Quoting "" : > > Dennis, > > I loved what your last sentence in you last post. > > "For the record, I have never touched a guitar. Never took a music lesson in > > my life. I just know what I like to hear." > > And that is really the bottom line for anybody. It all boils down to what > pleases the ear, regardless of some supposed or even real technical > comparisons > supposing to make someone "not" like an artist. As a college trained musician > > and composer, I realize all the technical specifics that music/musicians are > > supposed to aim for, but at the end of the day, all that really matters is > what > "floats your boat". > > Growing up, I was too busy trying to "like" only the music that as a > Christian I was "supposed" to "like", and NOT "like" the kind I wasn't > supposed to > "like". That seemed to work for decades, but after I gave that kind of > garbage > up, I began to realize that I really like some "rockier" music than I had > realized before. I, too, really go for Steely Dan, having found that out in > my 40s, > for crying out loud. So, what I am saying is that you cannot dictate or > manipulate someone into liking something. We either do or we don't. > > I had had "Brave New Hope" for years, and knew that Basia was really great, > but the "bug" didn't bite until after I got "Time and Tide" closely followed > by > "London, Warsaw, New York". I am now sufficiently blown away, and am looking > > forward to getting her earlier and later music. > > Alrighty then! Enough! > > Cheers! > > Phil/Michigan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 23:20:43 +0100 From: "Alan Mann" Subject: RE: one guitarist vs. another I Think I read somewhere that he has one older brother who was also a guitar player but apart from working together for a short time, he remains unsuccessful. Can anyone confirm this for me? Alan - -----Original Message----- From: owner-basia@smoe.org [mailto:owner-basia@smoe.org]On Behalf Of dregsfan@bcpl.net Sent: 21 June 2003 21:59 To: basia@smoe.org Subject: RE: one guitarist vs. another Hey Alan, I was just sorta giving a randome example of great guitarists according to birth order position in the families they grew up in. Yeah, Carlos Santana would be a good one to include, but I don't know his birth order. :( Do you? Joe On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Alan Mann wrote: > > Given that Basia's music has a Latin American influence, How does the group > feel about Santana's > contribution. Is he not worthy of inclusion in a listing of guitar greats? > > Alan Mann kkk ------------------------------ End of basia-digest V8 #72 **************************