From: owner-basia-digest@smoe.org (basia-digest) To: basia-digest@smoe.org Subject: basia-digest V3 #181 Reply-To: basia@smoe.org Sender: owner-basia-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-basia-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "basia-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. basia-digest Thursday, August 27 1998 Volume 03 : Number 181 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Male singers ["Diane F. Fisli" ] Re: THE COPERNICAN CHRONICLES: Take time to think it out... [talukdar@mor] Re: Take time to think it out... [Stephen Ylvisaker ] Re: THE COPERNICAN CHRONICLES: Take time to think it out... ["Becky Witte] Re:From Epic!!!!!! [Jan Johnson ] Re: THE COPERNICAN CHRONICLES: Take time to think it out... [Phil Hall ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:54:49 -0700 From: "Diane F. Fisli" Subject: Re: Male singers Ashoke ponders: >Could it >possibly be that we have stopped expecting cerebral matter from our male >artists? I think the crux of the problem is this - It has become "unfashionable" for male rock artists to show any kind of "tender" emotion... Love, cerebral thought, even merely being HAPPY, all that is reviled as "unhip" or whatever. It is simply not fashionable for males to exhibit the softer emotions or any kind of cerebrality. It's a damned shame - because I feel that many (unmusical as well as musical) American males are missing this in their lives, and some guy who is "hip" or "kewl" who expresses the softer emotions would be a great role model. Rock has this "party animal" image to uphold. Alternative (whatever that means) has the teenage angst and angry image to uphold. Punk and thrash are juat aggressive and while a great outlet for letting off steam, it's hardly a platform to talk about something that requires any real cogitive thought. I don't mean to pick on any specific genres, but I suppose you all get the picture. American music is full of uncerebral lyrics ("...babybabybabybabybabybabybabybabybabybabybaby..."), with possible exceptions in country music or folk music. I think if anyone is looking for something a bit more on the cerebral side they should look AWAY from American music. Let's face it, a lot of us are "Buttheads" here in the USA. It's a sad and unfortunate trend. It's also why I listen to instrumental music so much! :) TTFN! --Di. Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. -Mark Twain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:51:39 -0500 From: talukdar@morph.EBME.CWRU.Edu (Ashoke Talukdar) Subject: Re: THE COPERNICAN CHRONICLES: Take time to think it out... Dear Phil and Diane! Why, oh why, don't you write more often?? Thanks for the great posts. > He (Phil) writes of his son: > > He, electric foursome prone, mirrors the goatee-encrusted, bleached > scalp 'boy-band' template that typifies his age. > Vivid and, sadly, true. And I particularly agree with Diane, when she states: > > It is simply not fashionable for males to exhibit the softer > emotions or any kind of cerebrality. > I think the problem is one of perception and adjustment. A while ago we had a discussion on covers and I IMHO, the fundamental statement of the acceptance of significant male songwriters, who do exhibit and explore the "softer emotions", is represented by folks like Annie Lennox covering Paul Simon's "Something So Right". This issue is actually a very pertinent one because I think in a way, we, as discerning listeners, have allowed the male "art-song" writing trend to slip through the cracks. I don't think the producers ever actively advertised for the 'boy-band' image as being cool. They just propagated it because it fills many a wallet. On the liner notes of Wednesday Morning 3 AM, Paul Simon (I think) is quoted as saying "there is no market for intellectualism". Framed in the context of the times under which this album (IMHO one of their most soulful collections) was made, it seems ironic that the statement is perhaps even more true today; only now, the lack an "intellectual" market seems to be clearly limited to certain segments of listeners. > > The female scene, on the other hand, dominated by the Joni-wannabes > (right, Ashoke?), seem to be struggling to keep the folk scene alive as > best they can, since it seems the guys have abandoned it in force. > This also, is unfortunately true. And I say unfortunately, because, I think there are several female songwriters out there who could very easily depart from the folky trend and develop styles of their own. Many have done so quite successfully. But many others, who IMO can, haven't. Perhaps a remark by Sarah McLaclan on the VH1 Storytellers illustrates this. On the subject of her first album, she said that when she listens to it now, she realizes that when that album was created she "was listening to a lot of Kate Bush". The point is that Kate Bush and Sarah are very different with respect to the contents of their works (back again to that style vs. content issue). However, her observation typifies a disturbing trend in the female musical genre of today - there is a lot of 'style-inspired' following among new artists. This is a difficult mould to break out of. I think Lennox, Sinead O'Connor, Paula Cole and Suzanne Vega (among a few others) have done so successfully, whereas, ironically enough, Sarah herself, inspite of being more popular than any of them, hasn't. What I find interesting is that Sarah and Basia are similar in that their greatest assets are the their incredible vocal talents. However, Basia's unique "Samba-with-a-British-accent-and-Polish-softness" is unique (almost unreplicated), and it is a style that she (Basia) has made her own. On the other hand, Sarah's voice is an instrument to play many types of melodies. This is where style plays a HUGE role, because Basia's is unique to her own brand of melodies, but Sarah is Sarah, whether she sings "Adia" or covers "Dear God" (XTC). Phil also write: > > It just seems, to my simple mind, that having a baby should not by > necessity prevent a woman from making good music, like it might prevent > her from making pizzas or automobiles. > and Diane adds: > American music is full of uncerebral lyrics > ("...babybabybabybabybabybabybabybabybabybabybaby...") LOL! The Spice Girls would agree. :-) I am really glad we have these conversations. I think it makes joining the Basialist so much more meaningful. I encourage all of you to contribute your ideas and thoughts more often. Perhaps, someday these ideas can help to fill the gaps that we are now missing in the music industry. Peace, Ashoke. ____________________________________________________________________ Ashoke S. Talukdar | I'm writing you this letter from talukdar@morph.ebme.cwru.edu | some old hotel. I can feel the Home : 216-381-5872 | distance between us, from the Imaging Lab : 216-368-8812 | Spanish Steps to the Liberty Bell. MetroHealth : 216-778-8987 | I know the angels have seen us. Pager : 216-670-5872 | They've seen us baby... Cellular : 216-317-7079 | Fax : 216-368-4969 | Marc Cohn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:19:13 -0700 From: Stephen Ylvisaker Subject: Re: Take time to think it out... Into this discussion of gender differences in music performance, and intellectualism, I wish to add a couple things I read in "Singing Jazz", by Bruce Crowther and Mike Pinfold. 1) "Popular music has never been free of performers who lacked artistic integrity but it had now arrived at a point where the casual camaraderie of classless amateurism begun in the mid-1950s was not merely acceptable as musical entertainment but was actively encouraged. A good voice was no more a necessity than in jazz, but in much of 1980s pop neither was musical merit." page 158 and "The vast amount of money generated by rock, good or bad, not only made record companies rich, it also blinded the industry to intrinsic worth, the value of understatement, the subtle potential of emotional involvement - all of which are important elements in good singing." page 159 2) "For all the radicalism of jazz music, many of society's mores clung on. Through all the years of early jazz it is hard to find many female instrumentalists apart from pianists, but female singers abound. Even as the years passed, old habits died hard and it was not until the 1980s that female instrumentalists began to make an appreciable impact on jazz, although the percentage remained small. The piano is still the principal instrument and singing the occupation for the majority of women in jazz." page 163 and, later "There may be a corresponding yet contrary reason why the number of male singers has not grown appreciably in percentage terms. Men have traditionally concealed their emotions in many areas of life, and music is no exception. The overwhelming majority of song writers is male, setting down their emotional thoughts on paper to be performed by others. And some of the most emotional performances in jazz have come from male instrumentalists using, say, a saxophone as both a means of expression and a protective shield. Women, however, are often presented and usually unreservedly accepted as emotionally vulnerable people who can and do publicly address deeply personal concerns such as those upon which so many popular songs are based: love, longing and loss. Whether or not implicitly sexist distinctions such as these are fair and reasonable is another matter." page 163-164 3) "The standards of performance that marked efforts of earlier popular singing stars such as Jo Stafford, Frank Sinatra and Peggy Lee, were now largely ignored by the music industry. Of course there were, and still are, singers in the rock and pop fields who are skilled and thoroughly trained; Basia and Gino Vanelli are two who come to mind. All to often, however, the industry spawns singers whose pretentiousness in performance attempts to obscure their inadequacies and lack of taste." page 160 Such are the well-informed opinions of the two authors after researching the book by talking, or writing, to over 100 singers. I offer them as food for thought and discussion, and because I agree with them. Stephen Stephen Ylvisaker greyfell@iname.com "That's the whole problem with science. You've got a bunch of empiricists trying to describe things of unimaginable wonder." - Calvin (& Hobbes) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:36:58 +0000 From: "Becky Witter" Subject: Re: THE COPERNICAN CHRONICLES: Take time to think it out... I've really been enjoying these posts of late. I do have a question for the list though. Ashoke mentioned four women that he feels have broken out of the mold and made their own unique sound and been successful at it. Does anyone else have an opinion here? Also, Phil/Ashoke, when you refer to Joni wannabes.... any artists in particular that you're referring to? Jewel perhaps... ;) And just for fun, are there any female artists out there now that you feel will last for the long haul? Artists of significance? Just some more food for thought... Becky Ashoke Talukdar wrote: > > The female scene, on the other hand, dominated by the Joni-wannabes > > (right, Ashoke?), seem to be struggling to keep the folk scene alive as > > best they can, since it seems the guys have abandoned it in force. > > > > This also, is unfortunately true. And I say unfortunately, because, I think > there are several female songwriters out there who could very easily > depart from the folky trend and develop styles of their own. Many have > done so quite successfully. But many others, who IMO can, haven't. I think Lennox, Sinead O'Connor, > Paula Cole and Suzanne Vega (among a few others) have done so > successfully, whereas, ironically enough, Sarah herself, inspite of > being more popular than any of them, hasn't. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:00:09 +0100 From: Jan Johnson Subject: Re:From Epic!!!!!! >I'm thinking we should all start emailing Epic and ask the question - get >the juices going on the promotion people or something!! Beverly - I emailed Epic as you suggested to enquire as to the progress of Basia's new album (I mean if she's in the studio she must be doing SOMETHING, right?) and here's the reply I got!! From: Epic_Records@sonymusic.com X-Lotus-FromDomain: SONY_MUSIC@WORLDCOM To: jan@cuniculus.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:50:06 -0700 Subject: Re: Basia You have a long time to wait. That album won't be out until the end of 1999. Sorry about the wait, but it'll be worth it. YES!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:42:12 +0000 From: Phil Hall Subject: Re: THE COPERNICAN CHRONICLES: Take time to think it out... Becky wrote: >Also, Phil/Ashoke, when you refer to Joni wannabes.... any artists in >particular that you're referring to? Jewel perhaps... ;) Well mabey I have heard some outright Joni ripoffs in some of Jewel's intonations, but I would be the last to say anyone who has enjoyed success doesn't deserve same, (even Celine - the Bleating Chest-pounder). She can hold her own, as can Shawn Colvin, who I think of as a stronger composer than Jewel, but Joni Mitchell set the standard for composing AND performing, but while youth reigns we all bow down. I caught a PBS tv production of 'The Wizard of Oz' live on stage starring a bound-up Jewel last winter that probably gave away her theatrical aspirations, so I don't think she will necessarily play a major role in the future of female pop/folk artists. Mabey this will allow the Christine Lavins and Patty Larkins to continue to struggle their way to the top. I continue to enslave myself to the work of Holly Cole. Not a writer, but a superlative, unmatchable vocalist, not afraid to cover anything, in the honest to god cabaret tradition, ala' Lena Horne : no matter how the original was conceived and performed, she's gonna work it as her own. And Holly busts out a release every year! Which I run over people to buy! Her latest (Dark Dear Heart, last spring or so) has some outstanding covers: Joni's 'River' and the Beatle's 'I Saw A Face', among all the rest. It is exactly what I have asked from Basia lo these many years............when I first heard of the existence of 'Basia on Broadway', I thought: Fantastic! Basia does Lerner and Lowe,Rodgers and Hammerstein, etc. But, no...... Male counterparts of the above? The struggle is less of an issue, those I like are pretty much established. Donald Fagan (listen to the words and music of 'The Nightfly' over and over again, it only gets deeper and better). Lyle Lovett - there is no other evocateur of the Southern sense of time, place and being - a musical Faulkner. David Mallett is a Mainer with a universal appeal - he can tell a story about this place that anyone will understand (never once using the word 'lobster') and he whacks away at his Guild like he's auditioning for a job with the Gypsy Kings. More modern stuff is pretty difficult, tho mabey The Ben Folds Five holds some promise if the composition thing can be mastered. My question is this: Does Danny work up a Chopin-esque melody that Basia rejects because she can't work up some lyrics, or, does Basia churn her soul and create Yeatsian verbiage that is too abstract for Dan to mold a tune around, or what? Are they working, perhaps, on a dohble album? An opera or some other kind of massive epic? Do they wanna make music anymore? I wish SONY would simply dump them, honestly. Mabey that's what it would take to make em go back to work. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:54:59 +0000 From: Phil Hall Subject: re: THE COPERNICAN CHRONICLES At 10:21 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote: >The original message was received at Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:21:09 -0400 (EDT) >from sanpc50.gwi.net [204.248.129.113] > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >550 ... Host unknown (Name server: ebme.cwru.edu: no data known) >Reporting-MTA: dns; mail.gwi.net >Received-From-MTA: DNS; sanpc50.gwi.net >Arrival-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:21:09 -0400 (EDT) > >Final-Recipient: RFC822; talukdar@EBME.CWRU.Edu >Also, Phil/Ashoke, when you refer to Joni wannabes.... any artists in >particular that you're referring to? Jewel perhaps... ;) Well mabey I have heard some outright Joni ripoffs in some of Jewel's intonations, but I would be the last to say anyone who has enjoyed success doesn't deserve same, (even Celine - the Bleating Chest-pounder). She can hold her own, as can Shawn Colvin, who I think of as a stronger composer than Jewel, but Joni Mitchell set the standard for composing AND performing, but while youth reigns we all bow down. I caught a PBS tv production of 'The Wizard of Oz' live on stage starring a bound-up Jewel last winter that probably gave away her theatrical aspirations, so I don't think she will necessarily play a major role in the future of female pop/folk artists. Mabey this will allow the Christine Lavins and Patty Larkins to continue to struggle their way to the top. I continue to enslave myself to the work of Holly Cole. Not a writer, but a superlative, unmatchable vocalist, not afraid to cover anything, in the honest to god cabaret tradition, ala' Lena Horne : no matter how the original was conceived and performed, she's gonna work it as her own. And Holly busts out a release every year! Which I run over people to buy! Her latest (Dark Dear Heart, last spring or so) has some outstanding covers: Joni's 'River' and the Beatle's 'I Saw A Face', among all the rest. It is exactly what I have asked from Basia lo these many years............when I first heard of the existence of 'Basia on Broadway', I thought: Fantastic! Basia does Lerner and Lowe,Rodgers and Hammerstein, etc. But, no...... Male counterparts of the above? The struggle is less of an issue, those I like are pretty much established. Donald Fagan (listen to the words and music of 'The Nightfly' over and over again, it only gets deeper and better). Lyle Lovett - there is no other evocateur of the Southern sense of time, place and being - a musical Faulkner. David Mallett is a Mainer with a universal appeal - he can tell a story about this place that anyone will understand (never once using the word 'lobster') and he whacks away at his uild like he's auditioning for a job with the Gypsy Kings. More modern stuff is pretty difficult, tho mabey The Ben Folds Five holds some promise if the composition thing can be mastered. My question is this: Does Danny work up a Chopin-esque melody that Basia rejects because she can't work up some lyrics, or, does Basia churn her soul and create Yeatsian verbiage that is too abstract for Dan to mold a tune around, or what? Are they working, perhaps, on a dohble album? An opera or some other kind of massive epic? Do they wanna make music anymore? I wish SONY would simply dump them, honestly. Mabey that's what it would take to make em go back to work. Phil ------------------------------ End of basia-digest V3 #181 ***************************