From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V15 #151 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Wednesday, July 27 2011 Volume 15 : Number 151 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [AVALON] I Can't Get Started [jocelynfiske@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? [Terence OConnor ] [AVALON] Re: spoiler & etc. [Amry K ] Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? ["K B Porter" ] Re: [AVALON] Re: spoiler & etc. [Simon Galloway ] Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? [Simon Galloway ] Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? [Victor Hastings Subject: Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? Few!! so many questions! Firstly I'm 52 years old, RM 1 and FYP along with Ziggy Stardust and Electric Warrior are the blueprint of my musical tastes. They were not bought retrospectively (much of my music is, but not these). If you are under 45 (ish) then it can't be the same as discovering something as it happens. I enjoy music by the Beatles and other greats. But I just wasn't there for the first time. It feels different. I don't critisize Roxy mk2 too much. I feel that Manifesto is much more closely related to Siren than to FYP. But where Siren doesn't have a poor track, there are songs on Manifesto that would never have been considered in '75. Roxy Music did progess and I think Avalon was the most experimental album since FYP. It uses unusual synthetic sounds and the writing the best since Siren. Bryan Ferry continues to thrill me to this day. And I'm happy that I was there, I can't change that. It's great to debate over my favourite subject. Terry 'O' From: "JohnOBrien001@aol.com" To: avalon@smoe.org Sent: Tuesday, 26 July 2011, 14:33 Subject: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? I have read over the years many criticisms of the last 3 Roxy Music albums. There is no doubt that these albums have a different feel and direction from the first 4-5 albums. My favourite Roxy tracks are mainly from the early albums too but still enjoy a lot of the stuff on the later albums and I admire the band for trying out new things. There is strong stuff as well as weaker stuff on all periods of Roxy/Ferry 1972-2010 so far and I feel a line is drawn somewhere by fans who think one period is all great and the rest is worthless, or sometimes it's a 'I have been a fan since '72 so my opinion is more valid' attitude. It is sometimes dissed if a fan's entry point to Roxy/Ferry was at the highly commercial period 79-85 as if that was too easy and doesn't make you a 'real' fan (I hate that expression it is so meaningless) I sometimes feel that the later albums are judged not on what they are but more on what they are not and what is they are not the first few albums. Anyone who likes the first period 72-75 the best and registered on here some 36 years later must have some interest in the other 90% (in terms of time) of the bands solo and collective output. What I think would be interesting from fans who don't like the later period is what would/should this particular group of musicians have done instead of Manifesto/Flesh + Blood/Avalon to have kept the dissenters happy? I asked a similar question on the Viva forum a while back and all I got back was what the differences of each period were and not what else they should have done instead. What could they have done to keep it interesting without repeating themselves? Ferry has around 60 originals or co-writes recorded as his solo work. Throw in a few Manzanera and Mackay potential co-writes of material they used on their solo albums and we would have had another 8 Roxy albums. What should Phil, Andy, Paul, Jobson & Eno have done with this material to have made it interesting and not be For Your Pleasure XVI J.O'B. In a message dated 26/07/2011 13:38:12 GMT Daylight Time, mark@olivetreepl.plus.com writes: Do I hear the cry of a 72-75 purist? Terry 'O' ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:21:40 -0400 (EDT) From: kwil632057@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] I Can't Get Started I guess the chances of any of those surfacing on a future album are vague at best. As we've established today, ATGB is a distinct oddity that doesn't quite fit with the rest of the canon. If i remember rightly, wasn't IIDC orginally recorded for the Richard III movie? J - -----Original Message----- From: JohnOBrien001 To: avalon Sent: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:24 Subject: Re: [AVALON] I Can't Get Started 'I Can't Get Started With You' was recorded for the 'As Time Goes By' as well as 'You Go To My Head' and 'Some Other Spring' but these have never been released. 'Smoke Dreams (Of You)' ended up on the Goddess Of Love CD single and 'If I Didn't Care' also from the same sessions ended up on the 'As Time Goes By' CD single. J.O'B. In a message dated 26/07/2011 16:07:21 GMT Daylight Time, simongmusic@gmail.com writes: One of my faves too. I was listening to this version earlier today... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyAoTLJAHOk Can't remember if BF recorded it for ATGB or not. Wasn't a new arrangement of You Go To My Head tried out as part of the album sessions? Simon On 26 July 2011 15:49, wrote: > Loved this one on the ATGB tour - was it recorded for the album? > > J > > > _________________________________________________________________________ __ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon _________________________________________________________________________ __ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon _________________________________________________________________________ __ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:50:40 +0100 From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? Where does on start with this - OK lets give it a try and yes I am a 72-75 man but love Avalon For me Roxy was all about the unique stew of the instruments which were all born in different places - AM avant garde & classical, PM jazz and Latin, Ferry soul, TGPT Led Zepp, Eno art college, Jobson classical, etc. Put that all together and you get one hell of a sound. That mix was present up to and including Country Life in some form and then as their song forms got more standard, so the instrumental mix got diluted. Its still present in places on Siren (SF, Nightingale and Whirlwind) and Manifesto (Title track, Trash and Stronger Through the Years). Strangely I also believe that Avalon represents the ultimate Roxy stew albeit smoothed out but the way instruments move in and out punctuating each track is a marvel. Its seems like a logical conclusion to the bands career and with Siren, Manifesto and F&B being just experiments as the band tried to find the 80's version of the first album. So when we get to reconvening in 1976, I think they could have reached Avalon via a different route 1. Song structure should have gone back to the more circular form of the first four albums rather than going for a standard verse chorus etc type thing - StreetLife and Virginia Plain were hits so why not newer stuff 2. They should have involved someone like Eno/John Cale/Thomas as a producer to maintain that in built difficult listening. Rhett Davies is fantastic but is all about smooth - they needed to maintain the surprises 3. Don't mess up TGPT - he was and is the key link with 'normal music' 4. Work on the best songs from BF, PM and AM - I don't believe Manifesto and F&B contained the best of what was on offer - Midnight Hour and EMH were a bit of an insult. 5. Allow the musicians full vent to create and I include Ferry in that - his piano style is unique. They all had different experiences to feed into Roxy - PM & 801, AM and China/Rock Follies, BF his solo stuff - again a great stew 6. Don't start from a sequencer/drum machine for songs 7. I would have liked to see Jobson back in the fold - he understood the band's history and that violin was killer 8. Stop focussing on the perfect parts - Roxy are not a band of virtuosos - they are what they are and I think you can hear the difference between Roxy's 2011 dates and the current Ferry solo tour - Roxy still has more of an edge 9. Record singles specifically as singles - would help desire to crack US 10. Don't bring in extra players - Hubbard, etc 11. NO COVERS There you go Richard On 26 Jul 2011, at 14:33, JohnOBrien001@aol.com wrote: > I have read over the years many criticisms of the last 3 Roxy Music albums. > There is no doubt that these albums have a different feel and direction > from the first 4-5 albums. My favourite Roxy tracks are mainly from the early > albums too but still enjoy a lot of the stuff on the later albums and I > admire the band for trying out new things. > > There is strong stuff as well as weaker stuff on all periods of Roxy/Ferry > 1972-2010 so far and I feel a line is drawn somewhere by fans who think > one period is all great and the rest is worthless, or sometimes it's a 'I > have been a fan since '72 so my opinion is more valid' attitude. It is > sometimes dissed if a fan's entry point to Roxy/Ferry was at the highly commercial > period 79-85 as if that was too easy and doesn't make you a 'real' fan (I > hate that expression it is so meaningless) > > I sometimes feel that the later albums are judged not on what they are but > more on what they are not and what is they are not the first few albums. > Anyone who likes the first period 72-75 the best and registered on here some > 36 years later must have some interest in the other 90% (in terms of time) > of the bands solo and collective output. > > What I think would be interesting from fans who don't like the later > period is what would/should this particular group of musicians have done instead > of Manifesto/Flesh + Blood/Avalon to have kept the dissenters happy? > I asked a similar question on the Viva forum a while back and all I got > back was what the differences of each period were and not what else they > should have done instead. > > What could they have done to keep it interesting without repeating > themselves? > > Ferry has around 60 originals or co-writes recorded as his solo work. Throw > in a few Manzanera and Mackay potential co-writes of material they used on > their solo albums and we would have had another 8 Roxy albums. What should > Phil, Andy, Paul, Jobson & Eno have done with this material to have made > it interesting and not be For Your Pleasure XVI > > > J.O'B. > > > > > In a message dated 26/07/2011 13:38:12 GMT Daylight Time, > mark@olivetreepl.plus.com writes: > > Do I hear the cry of a 72-75 purist? > > Terry 'O' > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:23:02 GMT From: Amry K Subject: [AVALON] Re: spoiler & etc. If you were advising someone at a young age who had never heard of BF. & Roxy. what would you tell them to listen to? ---ATGB when it came out I thought it was Ferry trying to grab the Senior crowd. Too mellow for someone to get into real good. Maybe that was his goal to get newbies of the older generation. At his age could be his agenda. Got to appeal to all somehow to stay selling records. I do love Olympia as IMO it does reach out to several masses. After all look at Adele. appeals to all in a crazy sort of way. ---Lets not be to judgemental on Ferry. We love his works of yesterdays. Just be glad he still is around & got enough going to draw for tours.---Eventually some day that voice will not be up to par but until then enjoy the hell out of what he can give us now. Alway's , Marlana ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 15:00:49 -0400 From: "K B Porter" Subject: Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? Good question, John. Indeed nearly impossible to concisely articulate an answer to. Oddly, The only Ferry album I cannot say good things about is Dylanesque - and that is, probably, because to date I have yet to spin it! I firmly believe that what has been released by Roxy Music and or Bryan Ferry is as it should be. Artful music. Each piece is perceived differently by each listener, and that perception actually varies with time for each listener. - The music is dynamic. Personally, if I had the power to travel back in time and the power to influence any of the recorded canon, I would only try to tweak Bryan Ferry's first two solo endeavors. The brass component is too blatant for my taste, and I would not subject others to them as several songs have a horrible and unconvincing feel of being a mash-up between Motown and Sun Records sounds with nothing subtle about the inferior imitation emulated therein. However, considering the context of Ferry's skill and mastery of music at the time when the two albums were made forces another perspective; Ferry has yet to come of age and 'find' his groove, and that may only come from experience. I believe that during his early music-making years he tried to be soulful and bluesy. I don't think he is capable of sounding that way (perhaps it is one reason why he employs female backing singers who do). In any event, the years have served him well and he has learned to bank on stylized music more suitable to his voice and persona. So once again, I find myself back where I started: That everything is as it should be. And I don't need the time machine. Perhaps one day I will awaken to a better appreciation for BF's early solo stuff. Please note that These Foolish Things, A Hard Rains A-Gonne Fall, The "In" Crowd, Smoke Gets In Your Eyes, Another Time, Another Place are pieces from the above albums discussed that I do and always have liked a great deal. - My above critique doesn't apply blanket-ly across the two albums... I believe, for each individual, there exists at least one song on each album that is not well-liked, and what a wonderful world that makes. Happy Trails. KBP ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 22:29:08 +0100 From: Simon Galloway Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: spoiler & etc. Funnily enough, last year a colleague asked me to put together a CD of Roxy/Ferry tunes for her younger sister who was going away to university. I asked her which songs her sister already knew, and the reply was 'Virginia Plain'. That was enough for me to go on. I didn't make it too obscure, stuck mainly to Roxy/Ferry singles, mostly 1970s, with a handful of album tracks and even slipped in To Make You Feel My Love, which I figured she'd know thanks to the Adele version. But if I were to choose just one (non-compilation) album to recommend, it would have to be For Your Pleasure. Simon On 26 July 2011 18:23, Amry K wrote: > If you were advising someone at a young age who had never heard of BF. & > Roxy. what would you tell them to listen to? ---ATGB when it came out > I thought it was Ferry trying to grab the Senior crowd. Too mellow for > someone to get into real good. Maybe that was his goal to get newbies of > the older generation. At his age could be his agenda. Got to appeal to > all somehow to stay selling records. I do love Olympia as IMO it does > reach out to several masses. After all look at Adele. appeals to all in > a crazy sort of way. ---Lets not be to judgemental on Ferry. We love his > works of yesterdays. Just be glad he still is around & got enough going > to draw for tours.---Eventually some day that voice will not be up to > par but until then enjoy the hell out of what he can give us now. > > Alway's , Marlana > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 23:13:17 +0100 From: Simon Galloway Subject: Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? Goodness me, this is more difficult than one of my Open University assignment questions! ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 22:26:03 GMT From: Amry K Subject: [AVALON] Re: spoilers & etc. Good choice Simon, For Your Pleasure a good one. To be able to turn a young person on to Ferry & choose Adeles version of To Make you feel My Love. That song always makes me feel like someone who knows all about trials of Love & relationships. Adele is young but masters this like she has been through a lot. Maybe she has!!-----I know a lot of people in USA did not know of Ferry until he made the Live Aid appearance. I have that DVD of it & so many who performed or no longer with us. Brilliant souls who just couldn't stay away from the hard stuff. You wonder what could have been had they not chosen the path of drugs. Alway's , Marlana ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:38:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Victor Hastings Subject: Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? Hmmm, John's post deserves a more thorough response than this one -- but I would like to be able to travel back in time to 1975 and tell BF that his love for American music will be unrequited and unacknowledged, so he should quit trying to make his music sound American. (Worst illustration: Flesh + Blood. Yeccch!) ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:43:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Victor Hastings Subject: Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? - ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Evans > To: JohnOBrien001@aol.com > Cc: avalon@smoe.org > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 10:50 AM > Subject: Re: [AVALON] 72-75 What Else Then? > 1. Song structure should have gone back to the more circular form of the first > four albums rather than going for a standard verse chorus etc type thing - > StreetLife and Virginia Plain were hits so why not newer stuff Yup. > 2. They should have involved someone like Eno/John Cale/Thomas as a producer to > maintain that in built difficult listening. Rhett Davies is fantastic but is all > about smooth - they needed to maintain the surprises Rhett Davis is the studio equivalent of Colin Good. > 3. Don't mess up TGPT - he was and is the key link with 'normal > music' But Ferry said British drummers can't swing! God, that was all I needed to hear about F+B. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V15 #151 ***************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest