From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V15 #1085 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Friday, August 5 2016 Volume 15 : Number 1085 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 [Miles Goosens ] Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 [Chris Turner ] Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 [Colleen Tucker ] Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 [Colleen Tucker ] Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 [Heather Propes ] Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 [Chris Turner ] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 12:32:43 -0400 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 Oh, Avalon - down to about 10 posts a year (and not because everyone's trying to post from Yahoo or AOL), and it can still manage to be shitty. On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Chris Turner wrote: > Yahoo.com and AOL changed their DMARC policy in April 2014. Mail from those > providers must now be validated as coming only from their mail servers. > Sadly since March 28th this year this has also been true of all Yahoo's > international domains like .co.uk and .nl. They would argue that they have > done so to make their email more secure and less susceptible to spamming > and spoofing, which is of course a good thing. I get just about no spam > from Yahoo now. > > In most contexts it isn't an issue. Yahoo and AOL users can still mail > anyone directly without a problem. It's only when the mail passes through a > remailer (for want of a better term) like this list that alters the email > header that a problem occurs. When an email from those sources arrives via > smoe even if you are actually with AOL or Yahoo it will be rejected.because > the origin of the mail doesn't match. Some think this is draconian. > > Colleen's 'It's 2016' jibe is unnecessarily snide. It isn't always > everybody else's fault. After all, smoe and other mailing list providers > have had 20 or more years to modernise the way they operate. They don't > operate in isolation. Everything else on the Web has moved on. That said, I > do have a great deal of sympathy with them. They are typically small > operations who provide their services cheaply or for free and I for one am > grateful for what they do. > > Elsewhere services like Facebook have rendered mailing lists if not > redundant, then certainly antediluvian, although frankly I find them > unreadable.. Last time I looked the main Fb group were posting pictures of > The Commander with cats Photoshopped in. I mean, FFS... > > I now have half my list mail arriving in my Yahoo account (where I have all > the list posts for the last 12 years archived) and the rest in my Gmail > account. Reply from the yahoo address and it gets rejected. Reply without > changing the recipient and the list doesn't hear your golden words. > Seriously, it shouldn't be this hard. I suppose I could fanny around with > my Gmail settings to receive Yahoo but who has the time or the patience? > > I guess we have to hope that other major operators like Google and > Microsoft or ISPs like Virgin and BT don't also change their DMARC > policies. They are all signed up to the protocol, but most don't impose it > as stringently as AOL/Yahoo. Of course, now that AOL and Yahoo are to be > merged I can hear the death knell sounding for them both anyway. > > The best approach is to use your own email domain: Then you set your own > rules. > > http://blog.cakemail.com/yahoo-aol-email-reason-emails-arent-hitting-inbox/ > > Of course, as with banks and spouses, no-one really wants the hassle of > changing their email address. > > Chris > > On 3 August 2016 at 20:11, Colleen Tucker wrote: > >> no one sees your posts if you are using AOL or Yahoo--they are flagged as >> spam by 95% of the ISPs Avalon subscribers use. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 19:54:31 +0100 From: Chris Turner Subject: Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 As I recall the first thing our list Gaulieter did after her Napoleonic self-coronation was to change the default reply for the group to go to the sender rather than the list as it had previously. She said this was to reduce what she termed 'white noise' or what you and I would call discussion. Nothing did more to damage the continuity of conversations than that arbitrary action and we have been in decline ever since. Bit like that Bryan Ferry guy. Even as the nine of us left sit here in the smoking ruins of what once was, with many unable to post or to receive posts consistently, The (Self) Chosen One still demands the we respect her worthless fiefdom. What is the the sound of No Ears Listening? I wish I could change her default setting, y'all. Chris (who is happy to thank Smoe for their largesse for the second day running) On 3 August 2016 at 23:54, Colleen Matan Tucker wrote: > this is tomorrow calling: the reality is that people don't receive the > posts in their inboxes. what is the sound of one hand clapping? > > the folks at smoe.org have graciously hosted us, for free, for over 20 > years. things are not going to change on their end. > > while history is tellin' you the same old thing > this is tomorrow callin', let's stick a new oar in > > this is tomorrow callin', y'all 'n come on in > > Colleen > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Turner" > > To: "Avalon" > > Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 6:38:03 PM > > Subject: Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 > > > > Yahoo.com and AOL changed their DMARC policy in April 2014. Mail from > > those > > providers must now be validated as coming only from their mail > > servers. > > Sadly since March 28th this year this has also been true of all > > Yahoo's > > international domains like .co.uk and .nl. They would argue that they > > have > > done so to make their email more secure and less susceptible to > > spamming > > and spoofing, which is of course a good thing. I get just about no > > spam > > from Yahoo now. > > > > In most contexts it isn't an issue. Yahoo and AOL users can still > > mail > > anyone directly without a problem. It's only when the mail passes > > through a > > remailer (for want of a better term) like this list that alters the > > email > > header that a problem occurs. When an email from those sources > > arrives via > > smoe even if you are actually with AOL or Yahoo it will be > > rejected.because > > the origin of the mail doesn't match. Some think this is draconian. > > > > Colleen's 'It's 2016' jibe is unnecessarily snide. It isn't always > > everybody else's fault. After all, smoe and other mailing list > > providers > > have had 20 or more years to modernise the way they operate. They > > don't > > operate in isolation. Everything else on the Web has moved on. That > > said, I > > do have a great deal of sympathy with them. They are typically small > > operations who provide their services cheaply or for free and I for > > one am > > grateful for what they do. > > > > Elsewhere services like Facebook have rendered mailing lists if not > > redundant, then certainly antediluvian, although frankly I find them > > unreadable.. Last time I looked the main Fb group were posting > > pictures of > > The Commander with cats Photoshopped in. I mean, FFS... > > > > I now have half my list mail arriving in my Yahoo account (where I > > have all > > the list posts for the last 12 years archived) and the rest in my > > Gmail > > account. Reply from the yahoo address and it gets rejected. Reply > > without > > changing the recipient and the list doesn't hear your golden words. > > Seriously, it shouldn't be this hard. I suppose I could fanny around > > with > > my Gmail settings to receive Yahoo but who has the time or the > > patience? > > > > I guess we have to hope that other major operators like Google and > > Microsoft or ISPs like Virgin and BT don't also change their DMARC > > policies. They are all signed up to the protocol, but most don't > > impose it > > as stringently as AOL/Yahoo. Of course, now that AOL and Yahoo are to > > be > > merged I can hear the death knell sounding for them both anyway. > > > > The best approach is to use your own email domain: Then you set your > > own > > rules. > > > > http://blog.cakemail.com/yahoo-aol-email-reason-emails- > arent-hitting-inbox/ > > > > Of course, as with banks and spouses, no-one really wants the hassle > > of > > changing their email address. > > > > Chris > > > > On 3 August 2016 at 20:11, Colleen Tucker wrote: > > > > > no one sees your posts if you are using AOL or Yahoo--they are > > > flagged as > > > spam by 95% of the ISPs Avalon subscribers use. > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:46:09 -0400 From: Colleen Tucker Subject: Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 I have no idea what point you are trying to make but I do not appreciate being called a liar. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 4, 2016, at 3:27 PM, Chris Turner wrote: > > Disingenuous as ever. > > You posted this: > > "no one sees your posts if you are using AOL or Yahoo--they are flagged as spam by 95% of the ISPs Avalon subscribers use." > > Just a few minutes after I had inadvertently posted from Yahoo, before I reposted from Gmail. Only you would have seen that. > > But if you're having fun, carry on. > >> On 4 August 2016 at 20:02, Colleen Tucker wrote: >> I honestly have no idea why you are melting down--I can't make the list software fix AOL/yahoo posts so it's dumb to go after me for that--but if you're having fun, that's good enough for me. carry on. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:02:47 -0400 From: Colleen Tucker Subject: Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 I honestly have no idea why you are melting down--I can't make the list software fix AOL/yahoo posts so it's dumb to go after me for that--but if you're having fun, that's good enough for me. carry on. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 4, 2016, at 2:54 PM, Chris Turner wrote: > > As I recall the first thing our list Gaulieter did after her Napoleonic > self-coronation was to change the default reply for the group to go to the > sender rather than the list as it had previously. She said this was to > reduce what she termed 'white noise' or what you and I would call > discussion. Nothing did more to damage the continuity of conversations than > that arbitrary action and we have been in decline ever since. Bit like that > Bryan Ferry guy. > > Even as the nine of us left sit here in the smoking ruins of what once was, > with many unable to post or to receive posts consistently, The (Self) > Chosen One still demands the we respect her worthless fiefdom. What is the > the sound of No Ears Listening? > > I wish I could change her default setting, y'all. > > Chris (who is happy to thank Smoe for their largesse for the second day > running) > >> On 3 August 2016 at 23:54, Colleen Matan Tucker wrote: >> >> this is tomorrow calling: the reality is that people don't receive the >> posts in their inboxes. what is the sound of one hand clapping? >> >> the folks at smoe.org have graciously hosted us, for free, for over 20 >> years. things are not going to change on their end. >> >> while history is tellin' you the same old thing >> this is tomorrow callin', let's stick a new oar in >> >> this is tomorrow callin', y'all 'n come on in >> >> Colleen >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Turner" >>> To: "Avalon" >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 6:38:03 PM >>> Subject: Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 >>> >>> Yahoo.com and AOL changed their DMARC policy in April 2014. Mail from >>> those >>> providers must now be validated as coming only from their mail >>> servers. >>> Sadly since March 28th this year this has also been true of all >>> Yahoo's >>> international domains like .co.uk and .nl. They would argue that they >>> have >>> done so to make their email more secure and less susceptible to >>> spamming >>> and spoofing, which is of course a good thing. I get just about no >>> spam >>> from Yahoo now. >>> >>> In most contexts it isn't an issue. Yahoo and AOL users can still >>> mail >>> anyone directly without a problem. It's only when the mail passes >>> through a >>> remailer (for want of a better term) like this list that alters the >>> email >>> header that a problem occurs. When an email from those sources >>> arrives via >>> smoe even if you are actually with AOL or Yahoo it will be >>> rejected.because >>> the origin of the mail doesn't match. Some think this is draconian. >>> >>> Colleen's 'It's 2016' jibe is unnecessarily snide. It isn't always >>> everybody else's fault. After all, smoe and other mailing list >>> providers >>> have had 20 or more years to modernise the way they operate. They >>> don't >>> operate in isolation. Everything else on the Web has moved on. That >>> said, I >>> do have a great deal of sympathy with them. They are typically small >>> operations who provide their services cheaply or for free and I for >>> one am >>> grateful for what they do. >>> >>> Elsewhere services like Facebook have rendered mailing lists if not >>> redundant, then certainly antediluvian, although frankly I find them >>> unreadable.. Last time I looked the main Fb group were posting >>> pictures of >>> The Commander with cats Photoshopped in. I mean, FFS... >>> >>> I now have half my list mail arriving in my Yahoo account (where I >>> have all >>> the list posts for the last 12 years archived) and the rest in my >>> Gmail >>> account. Reply from the yahoo address and it gets rejected. Reply >>> without >>> changing the recipient and the list doesn't hear your golden words. >>> Seriously, it shouldn't be this hard. I suppose I could fanny around >>> with >>> my Gmail settings to receive Yahoo but who has the time or the >>> patience? >>> >>> I guess we have to hope that other major operators like Google and >>> Microsoft or ISPs like Virgin and BT don't also change their DMARC >>> policies. They are all signed up to the protocol, but most don't >>> impose it >>> as stringently as AOL/Yahoo. Of course, now that AOL and Yahoo are to >>> be >>> merged I can hear the death knell sounding for them both anyway. >>> >>> The best approach is to use your own email domain: Then you set your >>> own >>> rules. >>> >>> http://blog.cakemail.com/yahoo-aol-email-reason-emails- >> arent-hitting-inbox/ >>> >>> Of course, as with banks and spouses, no-one really wants the hassle >>> of >>> changing their email address. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>>> On 3 August 2016 at 20:11, Colleen Tucker wrote: >>>> >>>> no one sees your posts if you are using AOL or Yahoo--they are >>>> flagged as >>>> spam by 95% of the ISPs Avalon subscribers use. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> ____________________________________________________________ >> _______________ >>>> To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon >>> >>> >>> ____________________________________________________________ >> _______________ >>> To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> _______________ >> To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:07:50 -0400 From: Heather Propes Subject: Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 What about making a gmail (or some other non-DMARC-checking) address and resubscribe to avalon using that? My subscription uses gmail and works fine. Seems like a cheap solution. On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Colleen Matan Tucker wrote: > this is tomorrow calling: the reality is that people don't receive the > posts in their inboxes. what is the sound of one hand clapping? > > the folks at smoe.org have graciously hosted us, for free, for over 20 > years. things are not going to change on their end. > > while history is tellin' you the same old thing > this is tomorrow callin', let's stick a new oar in > > this is tomorrow callin', y'all 'n come on in > > Colleen > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Turner" > > To: "Avalon" > > Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 6:38:03 PM > > Subject: Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 > > > > Yahoo.com and AOL changed their DMARC policy in April 2014. Mail from > > those > > providers must now be validated as coming only from their mail > > servers. > > Sadly since March 28th this year this has also been true of all > > Yahoo's > > international domains like .co.uk and .nl. They would argue that they > > have > > done so to make their email more secure and less susceptible to > > spamming > > and spoofing, which is of course a good thing. I get just about no > > spam > > from Yahoo now. > > > > In most contexts it isn't an issue. Yahoo and AOL users can still > > mail > > anyone directly without a problem. It's only when the mail passes > > through a > > remailer (for want of a better term) like this list that alters the > > email > > header that a problem occurs. When an email from those sources > > arrives via > > smoe even if you are actually with AOL or Yahoo it will be > > rejected.because > > the origin of the mail doesn't match. Some think this is draconian. > > > > Colleen's 'It's 2016' jibe is unnecessarily snide. It isn't always > > everybody else's fault. After all, smoe and other mailing list > > providers > > have had 20 or more years to modernise the way they operate. They > > don't > > operate in isolation. Everything else on the Web has moved on. That > > said, I > > do have a great deal of sympathy with them. They are typically small > > operations who provide their services cheaply or for free and I for > > one am > > grateful for what they do. > > > > Elsewhere services like Facebook have rendered mailing lists if not > > redundant, then certainly antediluvian, although frankly I find them > > unreadable.. Last time I looked the main Fb group were posting > > pictures of > > The Commander with cats Photoshopped in. I mean, FFS... > > > > I now have half my list mail arriving in my Yahoo account (where I > > have all > > the list posts for the last 12 years archived) and the rest in my > > Gmail > > account. Reply from the yahoo address and it gets rejected. Reply > > without > > changing the recipient and the list doesn't hear your golden words. > > Seriously, it shouldn't be this hard. I suppose I could fanny around > > with > > my Gmail settings to receive Yahoo but who has the time or the > > patience? > > > > I guess we have to hope that other major operators like Google and > > Microsoft or ISPs like Virgin and BT don't also change their DMARC > > policies. They are all signed up to the protocol, but most don't > > impose it > > as stringently as AOL/Yahoo. Of course, now that AOL and Yahoo are to > > be > > merged I can hear the death knell sounding for them both anyway. > > > > The best approach is to use your own email domain: Then you set your > > own > > rules. > > > > > http://blog.cakemail.com/yahoo-aol-email-reason-emails-arent-hitting-inbox/ > > > > Of course, as with banks and spouses, no-one really wants the hassle > > of > > changing their email address. > > > > Chris > > > > On 3 August 2016 at 20:11, Colleen Tucker wrote: > > > > > no one sees your posts if you are using AOL or Yahoo--they are > > > flagged as > > > spam by 95% of the ISPs Avalon subscribers use. > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 21:02:15 +0100 From: Chris Turner Subject: Re: [AVALON] it's 2016 I don't appreciate your passive-aggression so I guess we're quits. On 4 August 2016 at 20:46, Colleen Tucker wrote: > I have no idea what point you are trying to make but I do not appreciate > being > called a liar. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 4, 2016, at 3:27 PM, Chris Turner wrote: > > > > Disingenuous as ever. > > > > You posted this: > > > > "no one sees your posts if you are using AOL or Yahoo--they are flagged > as > spam by 95% of the ISPs Avalon subscribers use." > > > > Just a few minutes after I had inadvertently posted from Yahoo, before I > reposted from Gmail. Only you would have seen that. > > > > But if you're having fun, carry on. > > > >> On 4 August 2016 at 20:02, Colleen Tucker wrote: > >> I honestly have no idea why you are melting down--I can't make the list > software fix AOL/yahoo posts so it's dumb to go after me for that--but if > you're having fun, that's good enough for me. carry on. > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V15 #1085 ****************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest