From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V12 #102 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Tuesday, April 17 2007 Volume 12 : Number 102 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [AVALON] Ferry = Nazi ["Nigel Hollis" ] Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry apologizes [Joel Hurd ] [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil [jocelynfiske@aol.com] [AVALON] Re:What the B? [jocelynfiske@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil [Colleen Matan ] Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil [kwil632057@aol.com] RE: [AVALON] Re:What the B? ["Andrew Shearer" ] Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil [Colleen Matan ] Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil [Victor Hastings ] Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil [kwil632057@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil [Colleen Matan ] Re: [AVALON] Godwin's Law [Joel Hurd ] Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil ["Christian H. Soetemann" ] Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil [jocelynfiske@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil [jocelynfiske@aol.com] RE: [AVALON] Thoughts on Dylanesque ["adrian jackson" Subject: [AVALON] Ferry = Nazi "All Bryan needs now is for the bastards to check out the "Sign of the times" video on you tube....." or the stage backdrop from the 2001 tour.... and they will be stalking Prince Harry to see if he turns up at a Ferry party in his usual party dress......(no pun intended) N. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 03:22:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Joel Hurd Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry apologizes Bryan Ferry: "I apologise for any offence caused by my comments on Nazi iconography, which were solely from an art history perspective. I find the Nazi regime, and all it stood for, evil and abhorrent." As others have noted, certain groups seem incapable or unwilling to separate artistry from doctrines. Combine that with trial-by-tabloid journalism and the leagues of offence-cravers and you have a person painted into an Escher corner where the only apparent get-out-of-jail card is an absurd apology for 'offence caused'. Reason is taboo. . - --- KWil632057@aol.com wrote: > Ridiclously OTT reaction. Sad to see Bryan apologise for something > that isn't offensive. > > Reminds me of James Brown being fired as the editor of GQ for > citing Rommel as a stylish man. > > J > > > > > In a message dated 16/04/2007 18:46:13 GMT Standard Time, > johnobrien001@aol.com writes: > > All taken well out of proportion and glad to see the press are > accepting his apology and statement. > > > Nein, Das is nicht Das Ende der Welt > Gestrandet an Leben und Kunst > > J.O'B. Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:33:46 EDT From: Chandla911@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] This from Leo Abrahams "I have a new EP available to download from Just Music. It's the soundtrack to a US documentary about the author Simon Winchester and features 7 Ry Cooder-ish, Marc Ribot-ish, acousticy accordiony instrumentals. Stop by and have a listen at the link below: _http://www.justmusic.co.uk/store/TAO017/_ (http://www.justmusic.co.uk/store/TAO017/) (http://www.justmusic.co.uk/store/TAO017/) All the best, Leo" "A super-mini-album. A textural work that has the imagery of American painter Edward Hopper's vacant landscapes in mind, desolate and with oppressive clouds of melancholia." (Gigwise) "Anyone who has a predilection for refined and evocative guitar music should get hold of Searching 1906. It covers a range of styles but is held together by a feeling of old Americana." (Melliflua) "I would say this, wouldn't I? But this is just incredibly beautiful music by an absolute sonic genius." (Richard Mills) Best wishes Richard Mills ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:54:49 +0000 From: "Andrew Shearer" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry apologizes would be interesting to see what they'd make of the large RM logo and eagle from Country Life era, and of course (I think already noted) the Flesh and Blood cover >From: Joel Hurd >To: avalon@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry apologizes >Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 03:22:43 -0700 (PDT) > >Bryan Ferry: "I apologise for any offence caused by my comments on >Nazi iconography, which were solely from an art history perspective. >I find the Nazi regime, and all it stood for, evil and abhorrent." > >As others have noted, certain groups seem incapable or unwilling >to separate artistry from doctrines. Combine that with >trial-by-tabloid journalism and the leagues of offence-cravers and >you have a person painted into an Escher corner where the only >apparent get-out-of-jail card is an absurd apology for 'offence >caused'. > >Reason is taboo. > > >. >--- KWil632057@aol.com wrote: > > > Ridiclously OTT reaction. Sad to see Bryan apologise for something > > that isn't offensive. > > > > Reminds me of James Brown being fired as the editor of GQ for > > citing Rommel as a stylish man. > > > > J > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 16/04/2007 18:46:13 GMT Standard Time, > > johnobrien001@aol.com writes: > > > > All taken well out of proportion and glad to see the press are > > accepting his apology and statement. > > > > > > Nein, Das is nicht Das Ende der Welt > > Gestrandet an Leben und Kunst > > > > J.O'B. >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > _________________________________________________________________ Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:55:52 +0100 (BST) From: KATE GROVE Subject: Re: [AVALON] Independent on Sunday article I Have only just got back to the UK to find utter crap written about Ferry being a fascist ! I have a Jewish background myself yet i fail to see why everyone except the BNP gets so hysterical over any comments that are not "damming " being made about Hitler's era. surely anyone in a so called democratic society could comprehend that what pleases the eye does not convert to the soul. unless its the butt kind of course - --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:51:45 +0200 From: "Michiel van Sleen" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry apologizes It won't be long until they find out we're all Fezcists here. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Shearer" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry apologizes > would be interesting to see what they'd make of the large RM logo and > eagle from Country Life era, and of course (I think already noted) the > Flesh and Blood cover > > >>From: Joel Hurd >>To: avalon@smoe.org >>Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry apologizes >>Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 03:22:43 -0700 (PDT) >> >>Bryan Ferry: "I apologise for any offence caused by my comments on >>Nazi iconography, which were solely from an art history perspective. >>I find the Nazi regime, and all it stood for, evil and abhorrent." >> >>As others have noted, certain groups seem incapable or unwilling >>to separate artistry from doctrines. Combine that with >>trial-by-tabloid journalism and the leagues of offence-cravers and >>you have a person painted into an Escher corner where the only >>apparent get-out-of-jail card is an absurd apology for 'offence >>caused'. >> >>Reason is taboo. >> >> >>. >>--- KWil632057@aol.com wrote: >> >> > Ridiclously OTT reaction. Sad to see Bryan apologise for something >> > that isn't offensive. >> > >> > Reminds me of James Brown being fired as the editor of GQ for >> > citing Rommel as a stylish man. >> > >> > J >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 16/04/2007 18:46:13 GMT Standard Time, >> > johnobrien001@aol.com writes: >> > >> > All taken well out of proportion and glad to see the press are >> > accepting his apology and statement. >> > >> > >> > Nein, Das is nicht Das Ende der Welt >> > Gestrandet an Leben und Kunst >> > >> > J.O'B. >>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >>___________________________________________________________________________ >>To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. > https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:05:55 +0100 From: Subject: RE: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry apologizes I guess whatever the rights and wrongs of it all he would have been in real trouble had he refused to apologise. From my perspective if an person or movement is evil that doesn't affect the quality of their art or presentation. And certainly shouldn't preclude peoples right to express an opinion on it. But for someone who (until recently at least) was skilled at keeping out of the papers for the wrong reasons it seems an extraordinary subject for him to have commented on. The apology is stuffed away inside the Daily Mail so hopefully that's that. At least he and Red Ken have something in common now. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:42:36 -0400 From: jocelynfiske@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Iconography versus ideology? Therebs a doctorate right there. And not one I intend to expose you or I to on this forum. However in short, I am more perturbed by Mr Fbs lack of media savviness after 35 years. As a ridiculous romantic Time lord anchored in some faraway forgotten yesteryear veering from Baudelaire to Satre to Porter to Dietrich (you name it, hebs flirted with it) he seems genuinely unaware that bigging up Nazi imagery on the basis of surface would not have the general public nodding in agreement and saying b you know hebs got a point - those naughty Nazis could certainly drop a grey suit like no one elseb. Everything about the Nazi engine was very carefully greased and oiled - the uniforms, the rallies, the bhomeb movies. They were all propaganda (no matter how much Leni Riefenstahl denied it) designed to seduce, persuade and coheres. And to this end, the afore mentioned seduced a German public en masse to swallow the doctrine of the devil hook line and sinker. There is no doubt that while the rubble of the Third Reich should today provide the foundation for nothing more threatening than a multi-story car park, its imagery and its manipulation of title has influenced everyone from Punk Anarchists (how ironic), Joy Division and New Order to Kraftwerkbs Red Shirts . Mr Price (always the Albert Speer to Ferrybs dictator) loves a man in a uniform and the more South American dictatoresque the better b witness his ridiculous Plaza scribblings with the huge powder blue jodhpurs and the stacked military Hellbs Angel caps. The double headed Roxy eagle is circa Austro-Hungarian Empire (after the Holy Roman Empire), the single headed eagle used by empire builders everywhere - Bonaparte, Tsarist Russia and Imperial Germany, the red velvet drape Rainbow backdrop undoubtedly Third Reich influenced. The Olympiad nymphs, the Dresden ruined gothic arches. the military outfits, the Cabaret flavoured tunes. Who lives in a house like this? The vacuous style cards all seem stacked in the Evil Empirebs favour. The devil has the best tunes. The devilbs in the detail and yes, the devil, wears Prada. But please, please Mr F, in the immortal words of the soul queen herself, you gotta THINK before you put your size 13 jackboot in your mouth next time. Jocelyn PS I would be very interested in the most qualified person on this listbs opinion. Professor Trez? Also some very erudite comments over at www.pauldrum.com if youbre interested =0 ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:00:34 -0400 From: jocelynfiske@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Re:What the B? I think my posts are being hacked into by a Neo-Nazi group substituting apostrophes with b (for bollocks?). ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:48:29 -0400 From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Quoting jocelynfiske@aol.com: > Iconography versus ideology? > Therebs a doctorate right there. And not one I intend to expose you or > I to on this forum. > However in short, I am more perturbed by Mr Fbs lack of media > savviness after 35 years. As a ridiculous romantic Time lord anchored > in some faraway forgotten yesteryear veering from Baudelaire to Satre > to Porter to Dietrich (you name it, hebs flirted with it) he seems > genuinely unaware that bigging up Nazi imagery on the basis of surface > would not have the general public nodding in agreement and saying b > you know hebs got a point - those naughty Nazis could certainly drop a > grey suit like no one elseb. > Everything about the Nazi engine was very carefully greased and oiled - > the uniforms, the rallies, the bhomeb movies. They were all > propaganda (no matter how much Leni Riefenstahl denied it) designed to > seduce, persuade and coheres. > And to this end, the afore mentioned seduced a German public en masse > to swallow the doctrine of the devil hook line and sinker. > There is no doubt that while the rubble of the Third Reich should today > provide the foundation for nothing more threatening than a multi-story > car park, its imagery and its manipulation of title has influenced > everyone from Punk Anarchists (how ironic), Joy Division and New Order > to Kraftwerkbs Red Shirts . > Mr Price (always the Albert Speer to Ferrybs dictator) loves a man in > a uniform and the more South American dictatoresque the better b > witness his ridiculous Plaza scribblings with the huge powder blue > jodhpurs and the stacked military Hellbs Angel caps. > The double headed Roxy eagle is circa Austro-Hungarian Empire (after > the Holy Roman Empire), the single headed eagle used by empire builders > everywhere - Bonaparte, Tsarist Russia and Imperial Germany, the red > velvet drape Rainbow backdrop undoubtedly Third Reich influenced. The > Olympiad nymphs, the Dresden ruined gothic arches. the military > outfits, the Cabaret flavoured tunes. Who lives in a house like this? > The vacuous style cards all seem stacked in the Evil Empirebs favour. > The devil has the best tunes. The devilbs in the detail and yes, the > devil, wears Prada. > But please, please Mr F, in the immortal words of the soul queen > herself, you gotta THINK before you put your size 13 jackboot in your > mouth next time. Thank you, thank you, thank you. It was an incredibly clueless comment. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:28:38 -0400 From: kwil632057@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Actually, it was free speech, and I and many others defend his right to say it. J -----Original Message----- From: cjem@his.com To: avalon@smoe.org Sent: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 3.48PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Thank you, thank you, thank you. It was an incredibly clueless comment. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:39:16 +0000 From: "Andrew Shearer" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Re:What the B? Yes but reading betwen the "b"s instead of the lines, once again I learnt something from this list >From: jocelynfiske@aol.com >To: avalon@smoe.org >Subject: [AVALON] Re:What the B? >Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:00:34 -0400 > >I think my posts are being hacked into by a Neo-Nazi group substituting >apostrophes with b (for bollocks?). > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > _________________________________________________________________ Could you be the guest MSN Movies presenter? Click Here to Audition http://www.lightscameraaudition.co.uk ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:47:37 -0400 From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Quoting kwil632057@aol.com: > Actually, it was free speech, and I and many others defend his > right to say it. You have barked up the wrong tree. My saying that it was "clueless" in no way takes away from his right to say it. I didn't call for him to be punished or silenced; I merely expressed my opinion of what Bryan said. Leaving aside that in the US at least protected speech is limited to political speech, the fact that one can say anything does not make that person immune to the fallouts of his or her comments, fallout which may be negative. Freedom without responsibility is merely license. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:46:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Victor Hastings Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil De-lurking after a long layoff.... *** Actually, it was free speech, and I and many others defend his right to say it. *** Ferry certainly has the right to speak freely. No one contests that point. The question is whether he spoke wisely in this instance. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:02:02 +0200 From: "Michiel van Sleen" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re:What the B? *BLUSH* - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:00 PM Subject: [AVALON] Re:What the B? >I think my posts are being hacked into by a Neo-Nazi group substituting >apostrophes with b (for bollocks?). > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:04:45 -0400 From: kwil632057@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil But he has been forced to apologise for saying something which he clearly believes in, just to satisfy some overly hysterical idiots who have reacted as if Ferry is a card carrying Nazi. The fact that he has had to spell out that he isn't is very sad. J ps: perhaps George Lucas should apologise as well judging by the photo comparision on the left... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_sources_and_analogues -----Original Message----- From: cjem@his.com To: avalon@smoe.org Sent: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 4.47PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Quoting kwil632057@aol.com: > Actually, it was free speech, and I and many others defend his > right to say it. You have barked up the wrong tree. My saying that it was "clueless" in no way takes away from his right to say it. I didn't call for him to be punished or silenced; I merely expressed my opinion of what Bryan said. Leaving aside that in the US at least protected speech is limited to political speech, the fact that one can say anything does not make that person immune to the fallouts of his or her comments, fallout which may be negative. Freedom without responsibility is merely license. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:13:22 -0400 From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Quoting kwil632057@aol.com: > But he has been forced to apologise for saying something which he > clearly believes in, just to satisfy some overly hysterical idiots > who have reacted as if Ferry is a card carrying Nazi. > > The fact that he has had to spell out that he isn't is very sad. > > J > > ps: perhaps George Lucas should apologise as well judging by the > photo comparision on the left... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_sources_and_analogues Leaving aside the issue that the glamour and gloss of Nazism was as much a draw into its terrible mystique as its politics, if he, and others, haven't yet figured out that the meaning of any communication is the response that you get, then there is truly no hope. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:09:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Joel Hurd Subject: Re: [AVALON] Godwin's Law Yes. Moreso, some of us agree with some of his opinions on said aesthetics, and don't regard such appreciation of said craft as 'hateful' or worthy of demonization. - ---joel . - --- kwil632057@aol.com wrote: > Actually, it was free speech, and I and many others defend his > right to say it. > > J > > -----Original Message----- > From: cjem@his.com > To: avalon@smoe.org > Sent: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 3.48PM > Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil > > > > Thank you, thank you, thank you. > > It was an incredibly clueless comment. > > Colleen Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:17:45 +0200 From: "Christian H. Soetemann" Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil I agree with Jocelyn - referring to the visual aspect of the propaganda and presentation should certainly not be equated with sympathizing with the ideology, but he could have expressed it more clearly... a half-sentence would have been enough (in case he was not quoted out of context). Ferry is an individualist, and individualism was deemed "entartet" by the Nazis. With all that, one could discuss to what extent the Nazi propaganda and presentation was influenced by the ideology. The mass marches etc. were designed to make the individual vanish, to have it swallowed up by the "Volk". From a purely aesthetic perspective, it can be considered impressive and overwhelming. But in conversation with the press, one should emphasize this isolated perspective. He doesn't seem to have done so, which was the thing that was not well-reflected, in my mind. Here in Eastern Berlin, I can see quite a few people wearing pullovers and jackets with "Thor Steinar" or "Eiserne Wikinger" (Iron Vikings) in German typo. And *they* are not merely playing with images... CHS > From: jocelynfiske@aol.com > Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:42:36 -0400 > To: avalon@smoe.org > Subject: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil > > Iconography versus ideology? > Therebs a doctorate right there. And not one I intend to expose you or > I to on this forum. > However in short, I am more perturbed by Mr Fbs lack of media savviness > after 35 years. As a ridiculous romantic Time lord anchored in some > faraway forgotten yesteryear veering from Baudelaire to Satre to Porter > to Dietrich (you name it, hebs flirted with it) he seems genuinely > unaware that bigging up Nazi imagery on the basis of surface would not > have the general public nodding in agreement and saying b you know hebs > got a point - those naughty Nazis could certainly drop a grey suit like > no one elseb. > Everything about the Nazi engine was very carefully greased and oiled - > the uniforms, the rallies, the bhomeb movies. They were all propaganda > (no matter how much Leni Riefenstahl denied it) designed to seduce, > persuade and coheres. > And to this end, the afore mentioned seduced a German public en masse > to swallow the doctrine of the devil hook line and sinker. > There is no doubt that while the rubble of the Third Reich should today > provide the foundation for nothing more threatening than a multi-story > car park, its imagery and its manipulation of title has influenced > everyone from Punk Anarchists (how ironic), Joy Division and New Order > to Kraftwerkbs Red Shirts . > Mr Price (always the Albert Speer to Ferrybs dictator) loves a man in a > uniform and the more South American dictatoresque the better b witness > his ridiculous Plaza scribblings with the huge powder blue jodhpurs and > the stacked military Hellbs Angel caps. > The double headed Roxy eagle is circa Austro-Hungarian Empire (after > the Holy Roman Empire), the single headed eagle used by empire builders > everywhere - Bonaparte, Tsarist Russia and Imperial Germany, the red > velvet drape Rainbow backdrop undoubtedly Third Reich influenced. The > Olympiad nymphs, the Dresden ruined gothic arches. the military > outfits, the Cabaret flavoured tunes. Who lives in a house like this? > The vacuous style cards all seem stacked in the Evil Empirebs favour. > The devil has the best tunes. The devilbs in the detail and yes, the > devil, wears Prada. > But please, please Mr F, in the immortal words of the soul queen > herself, you gotta THINK before you put your size 13 jackboot in your > mouth next time. > > Jocelyn > > PS I would be very interested in the most qualified person on this > listbs opinion. Professor Trez? > Also some very erudite comments over at www.pauldrum.com if youbre > interested > =0 > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:32:48 +0100 From: "Martin Stockman" Subject: RE: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Yes, Jon, but is there anything fabulous or beautiful (his actual words) about the Nazi rally photograph that you draw us to on the Star Wars site? Terrifying, brutish, I'd call it, a charmless vision of hell. I truly hope that Bryan is genuinely contrite about this indefensible outburst. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org] On Behalf Of kwil632057@aol.com Sent: 17 April 2007 17:05 To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil But he has been forced to apologise for saying something which he clearly believes in, just to satisfy some overly hysterical idiots who have reacted as if Ferry is a card carrying Nazi. The fact that he has had to spell out that he isn't is very sad. J ps: perhaps George Lucas should apologise as well judging by the photo comparision on the left... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_sources_and_analogues -----Original Message----- From: cjem@his.com To: avalon@smoe.org Sent: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 4.47PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Quoting kwil632057@aol.com: > Actually, it was free speech, and I and many others defend his > right to say it. You have barked up the wrong tree. My saying that it was "clueless" in no way takes away from his right to say it. I didn't call for him to be punished or silenced; I merely expressed my opinion of what Bryan said. Leaving aside that in the US at least protected speech is limited to political speech, the fact that one can say anything does not make that person immune to the fallouts of his or her comments, fallout which may be negative. Freedom without responsibility is merely license. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:48:17 -0400 From: Colleen Matan Subject: RE: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil > From: kwil632057@aol.com > ps: perhaps George Lucas should apologise as well judging by the photo > comparision on the left... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_sources_and_analogues In that George Lucas was using that visual analogy to mark evil, and not praising their aesthetics, the analogy does not help your argument. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:56:40 -0400 From: jocelynfiske@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil >Ferry is an individualist, and individualism was deemed "entartet" by the Nazis. With all that, one could discuss to what extent the Nazi propaganda and presentation was influenced by the ideology. The mass marches etc. were designed to make the individual vanish, to have it swallowed up by the "Volk". That is a very interesting point. The diminishment of "self". Isn't that what a uniform is all about too? Except of course they have to spoil it all by hierarchy and embellishment. >Here in Eastern Berlin, I can see quite a few people wearing pullovers and jackets with "Thor Steinar" or "Eiserne Wikinger" (Iron Vikings) in German typo. And *they* are not merely playing with images... Terrifying. Our image players however prefer to suppress the image and masquerade as your Average Joe (far more of them than the obvious Boot Boys of yore). Stay invisible and manipulate from within. Image and propaganda. One way or another inseparable bedfellows. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:58:05 -0400 From: jocelynfiske@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil ps: perhaps George Lucas should apologise as well judging by the photoB > comparison on the left...B Not before he's apologised for that dodgy beard ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:00:47 +0000 From: "adrian jackson" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Thoughts on Dylanesque Maybe it will grow on you with time. I agree that it isn't a 'classic' like mamouna, or even as good as Frantic. But I'm still glad he made it, for me it's better than Bete Noire. I played it to a someone unfamiliar with Bf & Roxy's music, and she preferred it to some of the other cds. I think Bf made this Cd because he's spent so much time & money on previous albums, that he wanted to make one quickly, cheaply & without the fuss & attention he'd normally give. So we've lost something in the process. We can't expect an album made in under a week to be as good something that took years of perfecting. Also, considering his ex wife took 10m & the house, I'm not surprised he made this cd. it's also the most publicised album I can remember. he really wanted this one to sell. Like he said in a recent interview, 'I just want to be popular'. he is only human after all, though many of consider him as some kind of god, dare I say it. Compared to his 'peers' (of course no-one really compares to Him) such as Sir Elton John, Rod Stewart, the Stones, who are far richer & better known ...... well, when was the last time any of them produced anything worth listening to??? I think the Stones last decent LP was Undercover back in the 80's (though Voodoo Lounge was listenable, don't know about the last one). We know that the new Roxy album wont be out for ages, so Dylanesque is an appetizer in a way. something to keep us going until it's released. he wants it to be pefect, apparently it's the lyrics that take up his time. maybe we could propose a few ideas for him. Adrian - ----- End forwarded message ----- ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:17:26 +0200 From: "Michiel van Sleen" Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil The Nazi's, What have they done for us lately? ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:34:45 EDT From: KWil632057@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil In a message dated 17/04/2007 17:54:05 GMT Standard Time, cjem@his.com writes: In that George Lucas was using that visual analogy to mark evil, and not praising their aesthetics, the analogy does not help your argument. Colleen Except that the picture is from the end of the film when good has triumphed over evil. J ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:50:55 EDT From: KWil632057@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] No sympathy for the devil Indeed Mart, but the point being that Lucas took the aesthetic of the photo and placed it in a different context to make it beautiful: a startling and awe-inspiring image. Which is kind of what Ferry is saying. There is a certain aesthetic beauty in it. He did not say that he agreed with the politics or that he subscribed to the views. Look.... I've read some pretty idiotic comments in the papers tonight. Ferry being accused of being anti-semetic and evil etc (the worst saying that he called the Nazi regime 'Just amazing' which is an out and out lie). It just comes across that certain people with loud voices are leaping to attention just because they think have something to be indignant about. If Ferry had said he was a Nazi who hated minorites and burned books in his spare time then fair enough, obviously that's disgusting, terrible and deserves vilification but to willfully ignore what he has actually said is, to my mind, stupid. J (not a Nazi and not apologising) In a message dated 17/04/2007 17:41:15 GMT Standard Time, martinstockman@btinternet.com writes: Yes, Jon, but is there anything fabulous or beautiful (his actual words) about the Nazi rally photograph that you draw us to on the Star Wars site? Terrifying, brutish, I'd call it, a charmless vision of hell. I truly hope that Bryan is genuinely contrite about this indefensible outburst. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:51:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Joel Hurd Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry and Nazi Headlines - --- KWil632057@aol.com wrote: > There is a certain > aesthetic beauty in it. He did not say that he agreed with the > politics or that he subscribed to the views. That stance will have to be reiterated a good many more times. It looks like people can't digest it the first few times. KWil632057@aol.com wrote: > > Look.... > > I've read some pretty idiotic comments in the papers tonight. > Ferry being accused of being anti-semetic and evil etc (the worst > saying that he called the > Nazi regime 'Just amazing' which is an out and out lie). Google News shows many utterly misleading headlines and stories about his comments and the follow-up apology. A case of not letting the facts get in the way of a good story or sensationalist blurb. KWil632057@aol.com wrote: > It just comes across that certain people with loud voices are > leaping to attention just because they think have something to > be indignant about. If Ferry had said he was a Nazi who hated > minorites and burned books in his spare time then fair enough, > obviously that's disgusting, terrible and deserves vilification > but to willfully ignore what he has actually said is, to my mind, > stupid. Again, yes. What's a level consideration of nazi-era construction and decoration next to the opportunity to cut right to labelling a rich out-of-touch has-been as a racist/nazi/supremacist et cetera. C'mon hacks - let's write the leads: "Bryan Ferry in Aryan Fury!" "Just Another Heil" "Nazi Music - Fuhrer Pleasure" ... and so on and on KWil632057@aol.com wrote: > J > (not a Nazi and not apologising) Not a nazi either here. {But mildy annoyed at the 'obligation' (real or perceived) to point that out.} - ---joel Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V12 #102 ***************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest